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A good point about the waiting time toshiro.
As for the volume vs. mass debate, I'll have to go all nerdy here; current sci-fi canon generally suggests that the main factor determining the size of a hyperspace window is the size of the ship. If we interpret size of the window to be amount of energy needed to initialize a jump, we would simply have a set amount per ship. It would save the devs work on algorithms, and would then create a value that could be displayed along with the rest of the ship data, so you know going in how much energy it takes to jump.
As for the volume vs. mass debate, I'll have to go all nerdy here; current sci-fi canon generally suggests that the main factor determining the size of a hyperspace window is the size of the ship. If we interpret size of the window to be amount of energy needed to initialize a jump, we would simply have a set amount per ship. It would save the devs work on algorithms, and would then create a value that could be displayed along with the rest of the ship data, so you know going in how much energy it takes to jump.
I'm okay with both, as long as they are implemented in a sane way (although I trust the devs to do few things insane).
Indeed; I'm sure everything has a reason, we're just not privy.
Everyone is a "privy" eventually.... LOL
ship size determining power would be pretty cool. Allow smaller chase ships an advantage over larger ships... an interesting dynamic. Maybe such statistics would just become part of a ships stats? Make for some interesting balancing.
I don't think this'll be done anytime soon, but I'm all for putting it on the todo list.
I don't think this'll be done anytime soon, but I'm all for putting it on the todo list.
Mass should definitely have an effect on jump energy requirements. Ideally, a behemoth over a certain mass (fully loaded with heavier weapons, for instance) should not even be able to jump through wormholes with a fast-charge cell due to the power requirements.
Of course, we need a wider range of power grid configurations and batteries as well, but that's another discussion entirely.
Of course, we need a wider range of power grid configurations and batteries as well, but that's another discussion entirely.
Agreed.
Good point there, ladron.
Changing it from what it is now would be a bad idea for because it will allow light fighters to warp more often then heavier ships. You would have to redo energy regen/storage so that medium and and heavier ship have more but use more for boost and thrustering. Though this might be a good idea for implementation of other ideas later on.
The point is actually to make light fighters be more fleet of foot, jump-wise, because as it stands, heavy ships stand too good a chance of evading their pursuers by jumping away. This may be fine when seen without a lot of in-depth analysis, but to promote a more immersive style of gameplay, it would make more sense to have slow(er) trade-ships.
Ok, evolving the idea, from a relativistic point of view:
A wormhole, and to a minor extend an in-system jump, disregard DISTANCE and MASS. It is a singularity, not on your ship but on universe itself, and energy to "open" the hole should be roughly the same for a small or a big hole. To open, but it must be kept open...
I think ship's SPEED should be taken into equation here, with much more "weight". Its not about opening a hole, but keeping it open long enough to allow your ship to cross. so your ships lenght, or size, also matters.
Therefore, the in-system jump should drain your battery on same amount as inter-system jump using a natural wormhole spot. But on those special points the hole opens somewhere else.
--
So, one more ""realistic"" jump engine could be:
1) your actual speed determines the AMOUNT of energy to open a hole.
2) the size (not mass) of you ship also affects initial (stored) energy to open a hole, over your speed.
The system could be tuned so that, depending on ship size/speed a jump requires:
Ship: static , 65mps, 200mps
small: 300, 220, 200
medium: 380, 280, 230
big: 540, 290, 249
static jump becomes demanding, you must be moving, preferably turbo'ing. And demands that bigger ships carries bigger cells to be able to jump, like, a freecell can jump a slow small, a full speed medium, but cannot jump a heavy ship.
So heavy and slow ships will not be able to use a fast charge and jump, but can use a ultra charge if turbo before jump, requiring skill. For light ships, fast charges still rules, but they can't do a static jump.
* * *
That is a severe gameplay change... changes balance entirely, also tatics, but is more simulation. I feel quite possible that it works fine, maybe tweaking slightly the powercells/ship size/speed can result on good fun. But a long term change.
A wormhole, and to a minor extend an in-system jump, disregard DISTANCE and MASS. It is a singularity, not on your ship but on universe itself, and energy to "open" the hole should be roughly the same for a small or a big hole. To open, but it must be kept open...
I think ship's SPEED should be taken into equation here, with much more "weight". Its not about opening a hole, but keeping it open long enough to allow your ship to cross. so your ships lenght, or size, also matters.
Therefore, the in-system jump should drain your battery on same amount as inter-system jump using a natural wormhole spot. But on those special points the hole opens somewhere else.
--
So, one more ""realistic"" jump engine could be:
1) your actual speed determines the AMOUNT of energy to open a hole.
2) the size (not mass) of you ship also affects initial (stored) energy to open a hole, over your speed.
The system could be tuned so that, depending on ship size/speed a jump requires:
Ship: static , 65mps, 200mps
small: 300, 220, 200
medium: 380, 280, 230
big: 540, 290, 249
static jump becomes demanding, you must be moving, preferably turbo'ing. And demands that bigger ships carries bigger cells to be able to jump, like, a freecell can jump a slow small, a full speed medium, but cannot jump a heavy ship.
So heavy and slow ships will not be able to use a fast charge and jump, but can use a ultra charge if turbo before jump, requiring skill. For light ships, fast charges still rules, but they can't do a static jump.
* * *
That is a severe gameplay change... changes balance entirely, also tatics, but is more simulation. I feel quite possible that it works fine, maybe tweaking slightly the powercells/ship size/speed can result on good fun. But a long term change.
The point is actually to make light fighters be more fleet of foot, jump-wise
Toshiro's logic is sound. Read it and become enlightened.
Toshiro's logic is sound. Read it and become enlightened.
Velocities (sounds more correct) are not really relativistic, in-game, thus would not factor into the equation, but my wormhole physics are a bit on the weak side. It would be a possibly fun gameplay mechanic to make jumps dependent on velocity. On the other hand, they could be a huge bore, because accelerating a loaded moth to full speed takes considerable time, IIRC.
And interesting point you raise is the inability of some setups to jump at all, and coupled with ladron's idea of increasing PC variety, this could become interesting indeed.
However, I am unsure as to how clear it would be to new(er) players as to why s/he can't jump. The entry-level ships should definitely be able to jump regardless of PC installed, and a (forced?) tutorial would show the ins and outs of PC variety. However, this would necessitate considerate Dev time (I think tutorials are more work-intensive, since they have to provide textual info, which needs to be written beforehand). Perhaps this could be clarified from up above.
And interesting point you raise is the inability of some setups to jump at all, and coupled with ladron's idea of increasing PC variety, this could become interesting indeed.
However, I am unsure as to how clear it would be to new(er) players as to why s/he can't jump. The entry-level ships should definitely be able to jump regardless of PC installed, and a (forced?) tutorial would show the ins and outs of PC variety. However, this would necessitate considerate Dev time (I think tutorials are more work-intensive, since they have to provide textual info, which needs to be written beforehand). Perhaps this could be clarified from up above.
Velocities (learned!) ok, but my idea on on TIME required to cross a singularity, so, how long keep hole open. For one any ship, if you go slow, takes long than if you go fast. Newtonian domain here.
Teaching newbies? Quite simple:
>> To do a jump, you must have a good velocity. allways speed up before jump. The faster you go, more energy left after jump.
and indicator has no change. Once ship is able to jump (speed/cell charge/3km distance) the green light goes blinking "jump".
And for accelerating a heavy loaded moth, don't you already have to do so towards 3KM from anything big? No change on that.
This is promissing...
Teaching newbies? Quite simple:
>> To do a jump, you must have a good velocity. allways speed up before jump. The faster you go, more energy left after jump.
and indicator has no change. Once ship is able to jump (speed/cell charge/3km distance) the green light goes blinking "jump".
And for accelerating a heavy loaded moth, don't you already have to do so towards 3KM from anything big? No change on that.
This is promissing...
And for accelerating a heavy loaded moth, don't you already have to do so towards 3KM from anything big? No change on that.
You have clearly never flown a moth. The average velocity of a heavily loaded behemoth when jumping (after turboing for at least 3 km) is around 75 m/s. It would take a very long time to get a moth which accelerates at considerably less than 1 m/s^2 anywhere near jumping velocities.
Velocity-dependent jump energy cost doesn't really make any sense physically either, but the more important point is that it would be considerably more complicated than mass-dependent jump energy cost, while not even offering the same level of differentiation between ship classes. As complication is proportionate to some power of newbie confusion and dev time, the simpler, more effective approach is probably best here.
You have clearly never flown a moth. The average velocity of a heavily loaded behemoth when jumping (after turboing for at least 3 km) is around 75 m/s. It would take a very long time to get a moth which accelerates at considerably less than 1 m/s^2 anywhere near jumping velocities.
Velocity-dependent jump energy cost doesn't really make any sense physically either, but the more important point is that it would be considerably more complicated than mass-dependent jump energy cost, while not even offering the same level of differentiation between ship classes. As complication is proportionate to some power of newbie confusion and dev time, the simpler, more effective approach is probably best here.
The idea is, for a moth, the requirement becomes:
Static: a full heavy cell
Cruise speed (60mps): a full medium cell
Turboing smartly (infiturbo): a full light/hive/ultra cell
Jump a moth (or any big one) with (fast,free) cell no longer possible. Note you don't HAVE to reach X mps to jump if you have the proper cell...
*********> From a rubber duck brain to the wise ladron:
If you can't see why velocity does not affect the time it takes for any moving body to cross a point in space (no dimension), then next time you enter an earthly vehicle, notice how your speed affetcs the time it takes to reach a pole...
Or imagine a gate that is opened when vehicle touches it, and closes after. How long does it have to remain open for a slow-moving car? And a fast moving one? And for a bus, same time of car? and a long Articulated lorry? Does it content/cargo affects gate somehow?
A hole is like that gate. Requires energy to open, and to be kept open. If not, then why the hole disappear?
And amount of energy depends on SIZE and SPEED of vehicle. Since its a hole in universe, the MASS of vehicle is not important on equation, as I see it!
All this results in more agile light ships, no change in medium and restrictions on large one, when the pilot makes the difference. Trucks are slower than cars...
Static: a full heavy cell
Cruise speed (60mps): a full medium cell
Turboing smartly (infiturbo): a full light/hive/ultra cell
Jump a moth (or any big one) with (fast,free) cell no longer possible. Note you don't HAVE to reach X mps to jump if you have the proper cell...
*********> From a rubber duck brain to the wise ladron:
If you can't see why velocity does not affect the time it takes for any moving body to cross a point in space (no dimension), then next time you enter an earthly vehicle, notice how your speed affetcs the time it takes to reach a pole...
Or imagine a gate that is opened when vehicle touches it, and closes after. How long does it have to remain open for a slow-moving car? And a fast moving one? And for a bus, same time of car? and a long Articulated lorry? Does it content/cargo affects gate somehow?
A hole is like that gate. Requires energy to open, and to be kept open. If not, then why the hole disappear?
And amount of energy depends on SIZE and SPEED of vehicle. Since its a hole in universe, the MASS of vehicle is not important on equation, as I see it!
All this results in more agile light ships, no change in medium and restrictions on large one, when the pilot makes the difference. Trucks are slower than cars...
Hi guys. The energy consumption was defined as a percentage, rather than an absolute, for gameplay reasons a long time ago. Partially to impinge on people both running and chasing. If I recall correctly, we fiddled with the percentages a bit, before settling on the current amount.
I'm not against changing things, of course, but I consider it a "not broken" area of gameplay, so I'm not in a wild hurry to "fix" it unless there's a substantial advantage to a new system (opens up new tactics and gameplay possibilities).
A mass-based system that doesn't screw with existing balance could have the percentage-per-jump usage increase with the mass, but keep a minimum jump usage of 25% or.. something reasonable. There would need to be some threshold beyond which "mass" became a factor, a ramp-up point that's heavier than the average loaded fighter or some such. Of course, this gets a bit more complicated with NPCs and player-NPC interactions. I can think of a lot of better things for the server cluster to do than calculate jump recharge rates based on a whole convoy's individual set of masses.
The possibility of increasing percentage energy with distance (going more than a couple of sectors saps more energy) is interesting. I can see it both having some interesting gameplay ramifications, and also possibly being more annoying. I don't want to bore people. Ion storms are bad enough (and we're dropping most of those). But, figured in with fogged "asteroid reefs" and things, it could make for more strategic course plotting and flying.
Dropping jump usage to an absolute, rather than a percentage, is not very attractive to me, for the same reasons that we initially did it this way (after some experimentation).
All in all, I'm still aiming for stuff that has a high "Fun" to "development time" ratio (aside from stuff like.. PayPal support), and I don't think this is one of those items (in fairness, it could be, if piracy or hunting dynamics are changed enough to be more interesting or some such.. but, that isn't clear to me yet, anyway). If people have further ideas, keep them coming. I'll make notes for down the road a bit.
I'm not against changing things, of course, but I consider it a "not broken" area of gameplay, so I'm not in a wild hurry to "fix" it unless there's a substantial advantage to a new system (opens up new tactics and gameplay possibilities).
A mass-based system that doesn't screw with existing balance could have the percentage-per-jump usage increase with the mass, but keep a minimum jump usage of 25% or.. something reasonable. There would need to be some threshold beyond which "mass" became a factor, a ramp-up point that's heavier than the average loaded fighter or some such. Of course, this gets a bit more complicated with NPCs and player-NPC interactions. I can think of a lot of better things for the server cluster to do than calculate jump recharge rates based on a whole convoy's individual set of masses.
The possibility of increasing percentage energy with distance (going more than a couple of sectors saps more energy) is interesting. I can see it both having some interesting gameplay ramifications, and also possibly being more annoying. I don't want to bore people. Ion storms are bad enough (and we're dropping most of those). But, figured in with fogged "asteroid reefs" and things, it could make for more strategic course plotting and flying.
Dropping jump usage to an absolute, rather than a percentage, is not very attractive to me, for the same reasons that we initially did it this way (after some experimentation).
All in all, I'm still aiming for stuff that has a high "Fun" to "development time" ratio (aside from stuff like.. PayPal support), and I don't think this is one of those items (in fairness, it could be, if piracy or hunting dynamics are changed enough to be more interesting or some such.. but, that isn't clear to me yet, anyway). If people have further ideas, keep them coming. I'll make notes for down the road a bit.
alloh how do you plan on changing sector load times for every single person based on how fast they where going? That sounds like it would require making new jump animations for everyone.
jump is not an animation as a video, but a 3D rendered scenes.
And your speed on moment of jump already changes "animation". Try for yourself, jump while turbo'ing then jump static. Are they equal?
I really like the idea of "FCC" unable to jump a heavy ship. Increase usage of infiturbo, helps pirates, no more infinite 200mps run on a heavy loaded ship... and maybe creates the local system "truck", faster but unable to jump inter-systems. And the Local interceptor, fastest hunter unable to leave sector except if docked on a capship!!!
Does size/mass of ship affects its jump requirements anyway as implemented now?
And your speed on moment of jump already changes "animation". Try for yourself, jump while turbo'ing then jump static. Are they equal?
I really like the idea of "FCC" unable to jump a heavy ship. Increase usage of infiturbo, helps pirates, no more infinite 200mps run on a heavy loaded ship... and maybe creates the local system "truck", faster but unable to jump inter-systems. And the Local interceptor, fastest hunter unable to leave sector except if docked on a capship!!!
Does size/mass of ship affects its jump requirements anyway as implemented now?
i wasn't talking about what you actually see alloh i was talking about the actual length of the scene