The Background:

For reasons that I'll cover in another post, if I ever get it edited, I spent yesterday as "Noobe Tole", camping in Edras. Yes, the name is a pun that describes the operation just like you'd expect. This was my first pirating experience. (And no character with Jzalae in the name will EVER demand money or blow you up for your cargo unless they're an imposter.)

In the past, when I've seen one newbie or another complain that they were blown up before they could pay, I've assumed the pirate was just being a *bleep*. It's what they do, right? Well having played one, I found it was harder to get it right than it looks!

And while I've never tried to pay, I know what it's like to be a newbie. You don't know what green text is, much less that red stuff. You have no idea how to chat to sector, may or may not know about /msg, and have never before encountered anything that required you to "quote names with spaces in them" or even understand what that programming term means. Or even understand the grammatical convention on which it is based. You may or may not be familiar with / commands, but now you have five seconds max to figure out that you need to press and hold space while pressing S until you stop and then type the whole givemoney thing in chat. And that's assuming you don't need to figure out whether you need to bargain, which as a newbie you usually do because you have 50k credits to your name and the pirate wants 100k to 250k for your 5k ship loaded with scrap metal and Orun cores. (Before you criticize, that's a real life example that occurred recently in Dau. Not kidding.)

The Suggestion:

The pirate types...
/demandmoney <victim> <amount> <message>

Three things happen:

[Edit:] The victim's logout timer is increased. If they lag badly (as though they'd pulled their net connection), a message might be sent to the pirate. Or just blow them up!
The victim hears: **BLEEP**
The victim sees:
*Ur Worst Nightmare* demands 1,000,000,000 credits: PAY or DIE, trader!
**Press Shift-P to pay or P to bargain**

Pressing Shift-P does the obvious. Pressing P automatically applies the brakes until stopped, sets the throttle to zero in F/A mode, sends a message to the pirate that the demand is being considered, and brings up a dialog with several choices:
- Pay (yes, it's redundant--people change their minds)
- Counter offer [ X] credits
- Send message: My ship and cargo are only worth [ Y] credits (defaults to actual value, but lying is possible)
- Some other choices I haven't thought of
- Some choices added by plugins, because we won't think of everything everyone will want, and there would be too many choices if we did!
- Reject demand (some people like to make their intentions obvious, as they do when they hail before attacking)
- Silently close dialog (reopening should be possible in case of mistakes)

The consider offer dialog should NOT pop up automatically, because that would allow it to be used offensively.

It must not prevent full use of chat. It should try not to fill the whole screen and blind the pilot. Dismissing it without sending a message that this has been done should be possible. It's goal is NOT to give the pirate any guarantee the victim is doing as asked. (The "considering demand" message may (should?) be sent in a forgeable manner.) This should only automate what an experienced trader would do, so that newbies have a chance of dealing with the high-speed automated process that is a modern pirate demand.

Please do post if you have any comments. I like to improve my work.

Bit offtopic but what i think would be much better solution is a module that lets the pirate immobilize the target to an extent(no turbo or jumping?), hence dispensing with much of the problem.

Being immobilized is Not Fun(tm).

I mean just not being able to run away, you'd still be able to dodge for one.
I believe that's why pirates only give you a few seconds, otherwise you'll likely to just run away.

I like this idea, a command like this also has to have an option to ignore it.

On the 'Reject Demand' option:

If I want to reject the demand, I'm not going to press P and then run or fight. I'll just run or fight right away.

Also, there should be an ability on the part of the pirate to cancel it, methinks.

Otherwise, fun idea, but almost certainly not going to go in the game right now. Just a gut feeling. The devs usually do not have the same priorities we do. :P

maq: It's actually even more likely that someone will attempt to log off. Most traders I run in to these days are scumbags who would rather break the game mechanics and log off to escape than pay up or be destroyed.

I generally hail when I'm within targeting range of the enemy ship, and if they have not made a strong indication of trying to pay, I proceed to fire as soon as I'm within weapons range (which is usually on the order of 5 to 10 seconds - plenty of time to pay).

If they do stop, I will ram their ship once or twice to keep them from logging, and if they still haven't paid at that point I will fire a warning shot once a second or so for about 4 seconds, while still nudging them around. If they still haven't paid, it's quite obvious that they do not intend to, and I blow them up. Note that this system gives around 20 to 30 seconds for a trader to signal compliance and pay up. That is more than enough time to copy the command I have conveniently put in my hail and press enter.

Most importantly, this would make it more obvious to noobs who haven't read the "Vendetta Universe" blurb (and vets who choose to ignore it) that piracy is a legitimate gameplay role. In light of that, I am in favor of this being implemented.

After having someone in a fully loaded XC panic and either quit the client or pull their internet connection out, I no longer just tap the hull to keep people from logging off.

If they don't stop and pay quickly, I commence firing for effect and keep going for a completed kill as fast as possible. Most people don't want to pay, and some will try and log/quit out, so there's no good reason not to go for the kill/cargo rather than asking for payment.

Also, the main reason to ask for cash is so that I don't have to spend pirating time going back for a hauler, collecting the loot, and then going back for my Hound/Valk/Hog II. But since there are so few traders on, there's not much chance I'll miss someone while I'm in a hauler moth, so one less reason to ask for money.

Please implement ANY solution ASAP.

Many newer players (not only real newbies) are really confused and do not know what is going on. I have been often asked "what is the command again please?" even from players like 5/5/5... or even 7/7/7... They were grinding their licenses in some lonely sector deep inside of nation space. Now, they are asked for something they have never done.

For complete newbies, the scenario would be pretty simple:

1) hailed
2) confused
3) scared
4) running
5) killed

...several times...

6) leaving da game

Most of them would pay if they know what is going on and how to do it. I am talking to many of them so I really know it. I am giving them even minutes to orientate themselves. Helping them with the game interface, commands ... and I usually give them 100k and let them go. Bad habit for a rat, I know. I hope to meet them again one day to get my money back. :) The problem is that most of other rats are not that patient and shoot them down in seconds.

There actually is a big influx of new players. They are leaving newbie sectors now to get their first real world experiences. Please, implement ANY ask-for-money solution because it will help to keep more of them in game.

a) if a newb can't chat, he shouldn't be in grey, and a new command is not the proper fix for that. most pirate monitor channel 1 and 100, and if a newb can chat at all, most pirates will instruct them on the details.

b) your command is too complex. it should be better/simpler than the existing best case scenario. some pirates have very good instructional hails. for example...

*Pirate X* demand you pay 50,000 credit passage fee. Apply brakes. In chat type /givemoney "Pirate X" 50000

In this example pirate hail, even a complete newb should be able to comply. I have seen hails of this quality, and your suggested command should represent an improvement over this.

c) the biggest problem is not that newbs don't have enough time, but that pirates can not afford them more time. A pirate could be a great instructional asset, if the pirate didn't have serious concerns over exploits. Your command is not the correct resolution for this.
see: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/22176#274467

This is a valid problem and one I've suffered three times from. Twice with Inco, and once with Bloodthirsty.

First -
No idea how to comply.. Inco nearly 'blows me out of the sky.' Then after five minutes explanation I found out how to pay the ransom. Almost 'dying' because I was trying desperately to figure it out and dodging to buy myself time to do so, not fun.

Second -
BloodThirsty Hails.. but it is lost in a a raging 100 postings and I miss it completely. Ends up with me highly annoyed at just being shot without even a 'Your gonna die!' heads up until after much Log digging later, I found it and apologised to BT for being so cold in my replies.

Third -
Inco again. Zipping across to inspect an asteroid field.. I miss the hail and then find I'm being shot at.. I turn about thinking I've encountered drones or NPCs and spend 15sec dodging Inco's shots when I realise it's him. I could only but press Hail back to acknowledge I finally realise what's going on.

So.. based on those scenarios I utterly agree we need a pop-up interface or in the least, a dedicated HAIL BEEP setting. The amount of times I think Pirates would actually get their cash and players would not be surprised why they died all of a sudden should they ignore such a pop up or Beep alert.

I used to work ol' slash command DOS for years and only recently got my head around the chat settings. Without a major tutorial, I expect new players to get pasted for ages to come, mostly due to lack of ability to acknowlegde a hail.

- Taele

As Tael so readily points out, some newbs are either incapable of paying attention to what's going on around them, or refuse to do so. I'm not sure /demandmoney would fix the fundamental issue, but it would probably help.

/demandmoney would be a crutch for those less-then-intelligent pirates who don't know how to craft a proper hail. Ladron, what Tael points out is that Inco's hail sucks, and that 100 can move quickly enough that you can miss the hail you just got (especially if you're not completely and utterly focused on the game).

I'm not sure what issue you think /demandmoney would help solve that changing your hail wouldn't. If it's a newbie retention issue... well, I think you're all-too-loudmouthed posts here on the boards are doing a great job of negating any effect changing your hail might have.

I think the meaning of "The Void awaits" is clear to much of VO and I see no reason to cater to the lowest common denominator by dumbing it down.

If that means a few nooblets wind up getting boomed because they didn't know what to do when Dr. Lecter or Trakus Shar appear in the same sector as them, bearning down on their trade ship and informing them that the Void awaits them, well . . . I didn't need the credits anyway.

"If I want to reject the demand, I'm not going to press P and then run or fight."

You may not, but some will. It's kind of like hailing before attacking, although less important.

ladron and Dr. Lecter make good points about needing to prevent evasion by logoff. Unfortunately, their methods of doing this (ramming and low-rate firing) put the victim in immediate fear of their life, causing them to dodge, which makes the pirate think they don't plan to comply. I've edited my original post in response.

"if a newb can't chat, he shouldn't be in grey"

But if he is in grey anyway, the game should still benefit from his subscription fee. As it stands, there is some danger it won't.

As for whether a newbie should be in grey, I challenge anyone to sit down and figure out a list of capabilities pilots need before going into deep grey, AND THEN figure out how the game will get the pilot to develop those and how it will keep pilots who haven't developed a particular capability yet out of areas requiring it. Keep in mind that all solutions must have a fast path for experienced players levelling up alts (and smarter newbies) and all must be fun. If this doesn't take days (if not months) to work out, it's not done right. It's also a subject for another thread. If you do it, I'll help any way I can.

In response to all the long time players claiming it's not difficult and most pirate hails contain instructions: you've forgotten how much you've learned and way over estimate the amount one can learn while trying to save their own life from being gunned down.

Remember, while experienced players care only of the money if they die and are not in fear of their life in hostile situations, that is not the normal human state, and the game makes NO attempt change new players.

Atice: as I've made clear many, many times in this and other threads, my hail contains explicit instructions for payment. The problem, as has been established by those of us who know what we're talking about, is that newbs don't necessarily pay attention and generally have absolutely no idea what's going on.

When newbs get pirated, it is often the case that they don't realize there is a pirate in the sector, they don't realize they are being hailed, they don't realize the pirate is asking for money, they don't realize that they have the ability to pay, and they don't realize that they're oblivious. Obviously, they promptly blow up, which causes them to get confused and angry.

There have been multiple cases where I pirated someone, only to have them spend 30 to 45 minutes trying to figure out what happened, and then finally send me a PM telling me they didn't know I was in the sector and had no idea what was going on. This suggestion will make a newb's (or any trader's, for that matter) experience with pirates considerably less frustrating, which will in turn make the game more fun for everyone involved.

I like to improve my work.

The delete button is at the bottom-right hand corner. Use it.

Putting a command help into the hail message does not look very RP and it is fixing VO's lack of proper mechanics.

Still, my hail is pretty straightforward. Quit bitching about my hail when you have never seen it. As you can see, there is a lot of people on both sides who want this implemented and this idea is showing up again and again. It is even older than any of my hails, right?

There definitely should be a pop-up window. For these who never pays, a check box in setup to disable it. Only message will show in such a case.

Atice, there are tons of your less or more stupid suggestions everywhere. Bashing this suggestion wont make your ones better. You are not a pirate, not a trader, not a newbie. This thread is not for you. Thanks for visiting, now go away. Let us discuss original topic again.

Meh. I see potential for exploits in the middle of fights, etc.
It just seems like there are proper mechanics for such thing in-game already.

As for your hail, Inco, I was referring to its effectiveness on newbs, not in general. And my comments were meant more to highlight flaws in ladron's comments than to highlight flaws in your goddamn hail.

And yes, I absolutely do have stupid suggestions/comments all over the place. Normally, though, when I make a stupid comment, it isn't at the expense of a newb.

"There definitely should be a pop-up window. For these who never pays, a check box in setup to disable it. Only message will show in such a case."

Good suggestion.

We just need was a system that encourages pirating over griefing. I've been griefed more times than I've been pirated, so far. Pirates turn to griefing because traders don't pay. Traders don't pay because to do so #1 encourages pirating and #2 is rarely worth it because chances are you're going to get griefed anyway.

Implementing this structured 'money or life' system is a step in the right direction.