Forums » Suggestions
I was thinking along the lines of a boarding pod launched from a large weapons port that would attach to the station,ship or turrent to be conquered. Once attached the pod would drill through the outerhull and take over the computer. This would allow the attacker to board and complete the takeover. The pod would be like an observer bot with grappling arms perhaps obtained though a crafting mission. Shields would prevent the pod from attaching and it should take several minutes for the pod to gain access.
What's wrong with "blow the crap out of everything in the sector" to conquer a station?
As to what was brought up in the other thread about conquering territory around a station, perhaps it can work something like the Central Skirmishes. In addition to more revenue from mining bots, the more territory you own around a station, the more powerful your defenses are for that station (more HP on the bots... or more defending bots in sector... better shield recharge for a defending cappie if there ever is one available to purchase?).
When a station is conquered by whatever means is ultimately decided, the remaining conquered territories return to their neutral standing and the new owners get to start from scratch building up their territory.
As to what was brought up in the other thread about conquering territory around a station, perhaps it can work something like the Central Skirmishes. In addition to more revenue from mining bots, the more territory you own around a station, the more powerful your defenses are for that station (more HP on the bots... or more defending bots in sector... better shield recharge for a defending cappie if there ever is one available to purchase?).
When a station is conquered by whatever means is ultimately decided, the remaining conquered territories return to their neutral standing and the new owners get to start from scratch building up their territory.
I enjoy the blow the crap out of everything system
I think there should be two main elements to a capturing a station-
1) Killing all the SF. You should have to kill the defense of a station
2) some time related mechanism. Like sitting within 1000m of a station for 15 minutes. There should be a way to capture the station faster (Perhaps with group members in the 1000m it should speed up faster) but you should still have to sit in the station radius for at least 10 minutes or something, to give defenders time to mobilize.
there could be 'hacking' items that could also capture stations (sit next to a station for x number of minutes, and regardless of the defense status it will capture the station) or "do y amount of damage to the station and you'll capture it"
1) Killing all the SF. You should have to kill the defense of a station
2) some time related mechanism. Like sitting within 1000m of a station for 15 minutes. There should be a way to capture the station faster (Perhaps with group members in the 1000m it should speed up faster) but you should still have to sit in the station radius for at least 10 minutes or something, to give defenders time to mobilize.
there could be 'hacking' items that could also capture stations (sit next to a station for x number of minutes, and regardless of the defense status it will capture the station) or "do y amount of damage to the station and you'll capture it"
Hmm good idea, kinda like in starwars empire at war where you have to dominate a position for so long before being able to fortify it
Defending a tiny little bot for several minutes will be plenty hard enough - you will basicly have to blow the crap out of everything several times over. Station gaurds and strike forces will all be trying to destroy the pod.(and you)
Part of the reason for the pod is to CAPTURE the station. Simply blowing the station up would be a different game mechanic. The pod would allow you to capture defense turrents and cap ships as well.
A mission based approach might also be doable but what would a fair mission look like?
If you have an idea then throw it on the table. Once Incarnate starts coding it will be a lot harder to change things. Later may soon become too late.
Part of the reason for the pod is to CAPTURE the station. Simply blowing the station up would be a different game mechanic. The pod would allow you to capture defense turrents and cap ships as well.
A mission based approach might also be doable but what would a fair mission look like?
If you have an idea then throw it on the table. Once Incarnate starts coding it will be a lot harder to change things. Later may soon become too late.
Anybody?
insted of one mission based approach, I think that having 3 might work better to allow different styles of play to conquer content.
first: you take a mission from a friendly station to attack directly, as PaKettle said. if you 'win' you get the station, if you lose you take a big faction hit with the faction of the station you are trying to conquer.
second: you take a mission at a friendly station to announce that you intend to attack the station that you want to capture, that you will be in some sector in the immediate future and that the station in question should send a bunch of ships to that sector to try to stop you. if you kill all of the stations ships you get the station, if you lose you take a slightly smaller faction hit with the faction of the station you are trying to conquer.
third: you take a mission at the station you want to conquer to buy the station outright. there needs to be a minimum trade level to take this mission and some advantage to a high trade level, e.g. a better idea of how much the stations current owner(s) want for the station. if you don't or can't buy the station you take a small faction hit for wasting peoples time other wise you buy the station.
and now for something completely different...
A mechanic for determining the defenses of a station:
every station has some income dependent pool of funds that it uses to pay for station guards and the like, a player in control of a station could add money to that pool for improvements or increased security to the station or could take money out as a tariff or other payment for ownership.
first: you take a mission from a friendly station to attack directly, as PaKettle said. if you 'win' you get the station, if you lose you take a big faction hit with the faction of the station you are trying to conquer.
second: you take a mission at a friendly station to announce that you intend to attack the station that you want to capture, that you will be in some sector in the immediate future and that the station in question should send a bunch of ships to that sector to try to stop you. if you kill all of the stations ships you get the station, if you lose you take a slightly smaller faction hit with the faction of the station you are trying to conquer.
third: you take a mission at the station you want to conquer to buy the station outright. there needs to be a minimum trade level to take this mission and some advantage to a high trade level, e.g. a better idea of how much the stations current owner(s) want for the station. if you don't or can't buy the station you take a small faction hit for wasting peoples time other wise you buy the station.
and now for something completely different...
A mechanic for determining the defenses of a station:
every station has some income dependent pool of funds that it uses to pay for station guards and the like, a player in control of a station could add money to that pool for improvements or increased security to the station or could take money out as a tariff or other payment for ownership.
i like the eve approach to this do x amount of damage to the station. with x being two to five times the amount of armor on a hac.
for player owned stations have it be the same way except you have to take down a shield first and then wait 12-24 hours (to prevent someone from taking over a bunch of stations at like 5 in the morning)
for player owned stations have it be the same way except you have to take down a shield first and then wait 12-24 hours (to prevent someone from taking over a bunch of stations at like 5 in the morning)
Well, you could have it so that when taking a station (I assume in grey space) you would go in with a full "party" or more. The Station would send out X number of wave, each harder then the last. after 10 waves you hit the station a few time or you just get it. Make it so teamwork is needed. The station is then controlled for 72 hours at which time it becomes free to take again. Also give incentive TO want to take it.
The economics of defending a station DRASTICALLY outweigh the ability of economics of attacking one.
For defenders, once they have poured their heart and soul into building a station that is theirs, must constantly be on the lookout for attackers.
Defenders will be forced into defending their station at odd hours, and will very likely be outnumbered as it takes a while to rally people from their "real lives" to log into a game and spend 10 hours of very un-fun work attempting to repel an attack.
Plus, the type of people who build stations are very different from the type of people who would attack stations in this game. There's not enough players to maintain a stable POS population at this time.
If capturable/destroyable stations are implemented, here is what will happen:
1. Some guild (most likely TGFT) will build a station in grayspace. Maybe 2 or 3.
2. Another guild/group (most likely a combination of [SYN], [CLM], [CORN] and their ilk) will pick an inconvenient time for the attack and will strike with swiftness and overwhelming firepower, easily outnumbering the defenders by 5 to 1 or maybe 10 to 1. They will win, and control of the station will pass to them.
3. The pirates will simply destroy the station because they know that attempting to hold the station will be totally impossible, plus they will be a little tired of their battle and will most likely not want to try to defend it and lose.
4.No one will build stations anymore because the risk/reward is WAY too risky.
The dynamics of capturable content is definitely one part of this game that needs an enormous amount of detail, research, playtesting and BALANCING before implementing.
in EVE, it's easy since there are so many players, you can (usually) count on corp members to login and defend the station, PLUS also - player skill does not come into question - an NPC battleship is almost as effective as a player battleship. Not so in VO, an NPC Trident will be nowhere NEAR as effective as a player-controlled Trident, plus with the low playerbase, it is conceivable that with a 20-person guild they may just login one day and find that their 10-Bn credit station was destroyed by 5 [CLM] pilots overnight as a lark.
Unless the stations can be protected solely by the NPC/automated defenses, I'm fairly certain that no one will bother building them after the first few very expensive losses.
For defenders, once they have poured their heart and soul into building a station that is theirs, must constantly be on the lookout for attackers.
Defenders will be forced into defending their station at odd hours, and will very likely be outnumbered as it takes a while to rally people from their "real lives" to log into a game and spend 10 hours of very un-fun work attempting to repel an attack.
Plus, the type of people who build stations are very different from the type of people who would attack stations in this game. There's not enough players to maintain a stable POS population at this time.
If capturable/destroyable stations are implemented, here is what will happen:
1. Some guild (most likely TGFT) will build a station in grayspace. Maybe 2 or 3.
2. Another guild/group (most likely a combination of [SYN], [CLM], [CORN] and their ilk) will pick an inconvenient time for the attack and will strike with swiftness and overwhelming firepower, easily outnumbering the defenders by 5 to 1 or maybe 10 to 1. They will win, and control of the station will pass to them.
3. The pirates will simply destroy the station because they know that attempting to hold the station will be totally impossible, plus they will be a little tired of their battle and will most likely not want to try to defend it and lose.
4.No one will build stations anymore because the risk/reward is WAY too risky.
The dynamics of capturable content is definitely one part of this game that needs an enormous amount of detail, research, playtesting and BALANCING before implementing.
in EVE, it's easy since there are so many players, you can (usually) count on corp members to login and defend the station, PLUS also - player skill does not come into question - an NPC battleship is almost as effective as a player battleship. Not so in VO, an NPC Trident will be nowhere NEAR as effective as a player-controlled Trident, plus with the low playerbase, it is conceivable that with a 20-person guild they may just login one day and find that their 10-Bn credit station was destroyed by 5 [CLM] pilots overnight as a lark.
Unless the stations can be protected solely by the NPC/automated defenses, I'm fairly certain that no one will bother building them after the first few very expensive losses.
[TGFT] may just login one day and find that their 10-Bn credit station was destroyed by 5 [CLM] pilots overnight as a lark.
Which will be, hands down, the funniest thing that ever happened in VO.
Which will be, hands down, the funniest thing that ever happened in VO.
did no one read my suggestion on timer limits. also if you are going to talk about how it is in eve should actually know how it is in eve. when you attack a player owened station you have to take down it's shields and then once you do critical damage to them they go into undestructable or 24 hours and send out in game e-mail alerts to the corp.
Which will be, hands down, the funniest thing that ever happened in VO.
That depends on your definition of 'fun', and its really short-sighted, anyway. The whole point Leebs is trying to make is that once its apparent that that sort of stuff happens, nobody is going to bother anymore (and you don't get the pleasure of knocking off a 10-Billion-Credit Station anymore).
Ultimately, stations should be harder to capture than they are to establish. NPC defenders are a must, given VO's small player-base, but their innate ineffectiveness means that we're going to have to resort to extremes here.
Here's my take on it:
The NPC defense forces ought to be measured in the thousands (hell, even tens of thousands) with the station constantly producing more on top of that from the available raw-materials on-site. Capturing a station would be impossible overnight with even a dedicated group of 30 or so players; the only way to "beat" the station would be to starve it by blockading relief convoys, and wear it down the defenders over a long siege. Once (finally) out of station guards, it could be captured in fairly short order (maybe its just set back to neutral at that point?).
In a way, it would help make the whole pirate/antirate conflict a whole lot less nebulous; at present, pirates kill traders and antirats kill pirates, but theres really no rhyme or reason as to why (killing a pirate does little except inconvenience him etc). However, using a "siege" system would mean that the traders would have a significant impact on the defense of a station, the antirats would have an actual reason to defend the traders, and the pirates would have both an actual reason to attack the traders as well as a static, monolithic objective which they can task themselves to surmount (the station).
Or maybe I'm just thinking about this too hard?
That depends on your definition of 'fun', and its really short-sighted, anyway. The whole point Leebs is trying to make is that once its apparent that that sort of stuff happens, nobody is going to bother anymore (and you don't get the pleasure of knocking off a 10-Billion-Credit Station anymore).
Ultimately, stations should be harder to capture than they are to establish. NPC defenders are a must, given VO's small player-base, but their innate ineffectiveness means that we're going to have to resort to extremes here.
Here's my take on it:
The NPC defense forces ought to be measured in the thousands (hell, even tens of thousands) with the station constantly producing more on top of that from the available raw-materials on-site. Capturing a station would be impossible overnight with even a dedicated group of 30 or so players; the only way to "beat" the station would be to starve it by blockading relief convoys, and wear it down the defenders over a long siege. Once (finally) out of station guards, it could be captured in fairly short order (maybe its just set back to neutral at that point?).
In a way, it would help make the whole pirate/antirate conflict a whole lot less nebulous; at present, pirates kill traders and antirats kill pirates, but theres really no rhyme or reason as to why (killing a pirate does little except inconvenience him etc). However, using a "siege" system would mean that the traders would have a significant impact on the defense of a station, the antirats would have an actual reason to defend the traders, and the pirates would have both an actual reason to attack the traders as well as a static, monolithic objective which they can task themselves to surmount (the station).
Or maybe I'm just thinking about this too hard?
Everything burns.
pirates kill traders and antirats kill pirates
Well, in my experience, pirates kill traders and antirats fly around in circles for a little while before the pirates kill them too, but your point is still valid.
However, maintaining a player-run 24/7 siege isn't any more possible than maintaining a player-run 24/7 defense. If your solution were to be implemented, even the best-executed siege could be defeated by any dumbass European simply by logging in at 10 AM local-time (when there are about 4 players online) and bringing a couple moth-fulls of supplies to the station.
Also, it's not currently possible to blockade a station. A wormhole is certainly doable, but additional game mechanics are required before a station can be locked down that way.
Well, in my experience, pirates kill traders and antirats fly around in circles for a little while before the pirates kill them too, but your point is still valid.
However, maintaining a player-run 24/7 siege isn't any more possible than maintaining a player-run 24/7 defense. If your solution were to be implemented, even the best-executed siege could be defeated by any dumbass European simply by logging in at 10 AM local-time (when there are about 4 players online) and bringing a couple moth-fulls of supplies to the station.
Also, it's not currently possible to blockade a station. A wormhole is certainly doable, but additional game mechanics are required before a station can be locked down that way.
I dont meant to nit pick but no one plays deneb border war because killing even a hundred bots is boring as hell and you want thousands?
If you were in control of this i'd just say to give up on the whole having stations idea but fortunately you are not!.
Bots are necessary yes, defending your base is necessary, a time frame for you to be able to come back and save it from capture also good in a moderate sense but anything in the thousands is just crazy talk and not likely fun
I also like the idea of being notified outside of game if your station is being attacked
If you were in control of this i'd just say to give up on the whole having stations idea but fortunately you are not!.
Bots are necessary yes, defending your base is necessary, a time frame for you to be able to come back and save it from capture also good in a moderate sense but anything in the thousands is just crazy talk and not likely fun
I also like the idea of being notified outside of game if your station is being attacked
Being notified outside of game will not matter much, if at all.
Knowing Murphy's Law, I would wager that I would be notified at about 8 AM while I am at work that my station is being attacked, and when I get home at 7 PM it will be a faint haze of primordial dust.
In fact, I'm relatively certain that the players behind the pirates would actually coordinate taking a day off of work amongst themselves to attack any station I (or any guild I belonged to) owned.
However, if the station owner could put together some strategy for the ships they wanted to defend their stations, then things might get interesting. I'd probably start with some Valkyrie X-1's with all energy loadouts, as well as some rags with L-mines and sunflares to come in for the kill shots once the valks have fixed the prey in position. But, that kind of coordination is impossible at the moment. And still, it will take 3 to 5 NPC defender ships to match skills with every single player pilot, maybe we'll need turrets as well.
Plus, the NPC's would have to be smart enough to know not to get drawn out of position, to pick their targets well (i.e disengage from an attacking fighter in order to take out an attacking bomber) and to avoid dying if they can, since I'm sure that the station will not have unlimited defenses.
Knowing Murphy's Law, I would wager that I would be notified at about 8 AM while I am at work that my station is being attacked, and when I get home at 7 PM it will be a faint haze of primordial dust.
In fact, I'm relatively certain that the players behind the pirates would actually coordinate taking a day off of work amongst themselves to attack any station I (or any guild I belonged to) owned.
However, if the station owner could put together some strategy for the ships they wanted to defend their stations, then things might get interesting. I'd probably start with some Valkyrie X-1's with all energy loadouts, as well as some rags with L-mines and sunflares to come in for the kill shots once the valks have fixed the prey in position. But, that kind of coordination is impossible at the moment. And still, it will take 3 to 5 NPC defender ships to match skills with every single player pilot, maybe we'll need turrets as well.
Plus, the NPC's would have to be smart enough to know not to get drawn out of position, to pick their targets well (i.e disengage from an attacking fighter in order to take out an attacking bomber) and to avoid dying if they can, since I'm sure that the station will not have unlimited defenses.
Leber, you're not even smart enough to do all that. How can you expect a bunch of NPCs to do it?!
peytros has a point. It might also be worth looking at the implementation Pirates of the Burning Seas offers. Unrest may not be as important a factor, but it could be replaced by other things. After that, you'd have the actual battle, which is scheduled and has a fixed number of participants. The applicability of that system is debatable, but the numbers could be bolstered by an adequate number of NPC ships.