I bring this up as a result of two recent threads, the SunFlare debate and the AGT-as-turret debate.

In both cases, grid power has been suggested to alter the potential use-cases of the various items. However, also in both threads, the issues are often related to specific ship configs.

This was particularly notable with the AGT threads, as I said I wouldn't special-case the Prom as having some "weird extra" ability to use the AGT as a non-turret weapon, while keeping it from everyone else. There is no mechanic by which to implement this in the game in a visible and logical manner.

However, we could make powercells ship-specific. Ie, instead of having N basic types, that everyone can use, we have a few types that can be upgraded per-ship. So the Prom or Valk might have 3 or 4 optional powercells that could be acquired specifically for that ship only, and essentially no generic cells.. or all generic cells would be really crappy.

In this way, we could limit grid power per-ship, and use that as a limiting factor for weapons on more of a power-loadout basis, as opposed to generically based on whomever is willing to use X powercell (and I can only really tweak the downsides of generic powercells based on total mass, which isn't quite as useful as we'd like).

In this way, we could say that X ship could have the grid power to use the AGT, but not with two sunflares, but Y ship (Centaur?) might be able to do so.. as it's ship-specific powercell upgrades might allow it.

The original reason for gridpower was to allow the existence of low-mass weaponry that couldn't immediately be quad-stacked on the hornet, or some similar situation, creating an excessively dominating config. Making it per-ship, could allow further granularity to these limitations.

This is basically the same approach we ended up taking with engines. Old players will remember when generic engines could be equipped on all ships. Unfortunately, putting the most powerful engines on the lightest ships had a (literally) destabilizing effect on the mathematical control system that allows the ships to be flown. So, we had to make all engines per-ship, but with the longer-term idea of allowing "per-ship" upgrades, tuned to that specific ship type, but still allowing upgradability. Clearly, this hasn't come to pass yet, but it's still planned and the idea is still sound.

This would have some odd ramifications for "special" powercell cases, like the Ultra-Charge and whatnot. We might have to make a whole bunch of them, instead of one generic one, and have it optionally available to whomever player has the given Accomplishment, for all their ships.

This would also require a substantial reworking of some code, so I can't promise that this would be a short-term "fix" at all. Not to mention, a new UI mechanic would probably be needed for the process of "upgrading", since the common "buy" system (currently based entirely around generic items) would not really be applicable.

Anyway, feedback welcome. I hope this is vaguely clear, I'm currently really under the weather with a nasty flu, so.. don't expect me to respond quickly or anything.

Ship-specific powercells would be awesome as long as the non-badge generics are still available.
More content is good content.

It would replace the non-badge generics, except for maybe one or two with very significant limitations (low grid power, etc). Effectively the same generics would be available per-ship, though, and tweaked from there based on need.

It might replace all the generics, period, if that proved simpler to implement.

yea this is probably a good idea. I say probably because of course it'll have draw backs but just like the engines being removed as generic items its probably a good thing in the long run

I think this is a great idea.

I would have to sort through dozens of power cells to find one that fit in my ship. It also make savaging a high end power cell, like an ultra charge, much more limited, because that ultra charge will only work on a valk, or whatnot. I see complexity, and ask will the benefits justify this.

Light, Medium, Heavy, and Fast battery ports?

yep. In an ideal world everything would balance out (the engines, for example), but this is a game so-

Go for it. It would be good.

Yes please

Or small and large battery ports and gen ports ....?

One thought on these ship specific batteries. Perhaps also make these special batteries alter the ships stats, ie, have a battery that has enough power to run a dual agt+flare setup signifigantly reduces your thrust, or using a battery with just enough juice to run one standard energy weapon increases your top cruising speed, etc.

This would allow you to bring back in a way the different types of engines, but still allow you to control thier ultimate limits. It would also bring a bit of unknown variety to play, since you wouldnt know EXACTLY what someone was flying.

I should probably add that I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of making the generic power cells suck and making unlockable special cells per ship.

Well, I think it might be best to keep the concepts of engines and powercells separate. But, certainly, having upgradable engines would also be beneficial. As an upside, much of the work we would have to put into doing this for powercells, would be usable on engines.

Roda, it would not be necessary to sort through tons of powercells to fight the right one.. as I mentioned in the initial post, the UI itself would change. The method of purchasing such a thing would be based on the ship; either a special "upgrade" menu placed somewhere, or just an automatic customization of the available items based on the currently selected (active) ship.

Roda does make a good point, however. This would impact the usability of salvaged powercells, as the ones people drop might not be usable on a given player's ship (even within a type, the cells could be variant-specific sometimes). I've always liked our salvage system and it would add quite a bit of complexity to using such items. Any further feedback on whether the good outweighs the bad here?

The only salvaged powercells I've ever not sold immediately were UCs. I think this has the possibility of increasing, rather than decreasing, the possibilities of salvage, depending on what new kinds of batteries are introduced (maybe there are some models that are sold in some places and not in others, and if that model gets dropped to someone who isn't in that place very often, they'll be quite happy to have it, or something of the sort).

I like this idea, but I would also put in that with any UI changes that come about, there should always be some way of accessing all the available addons regardless of what ship you are currently flying, for transport or trade purposes.

Too many ship specific batteries is a problem.

How about a separate slot "grid generator." It could come in sizes from 8 to 30. Each ship could have maximim size grid generator it will accept. A fighter could be limited to grid 12, while a roc could be limited to grid 30. This way devs could limit the number of super weapons which would fit on a fighter (the original intent of the grid system) without penalizing the roc drivers.

Larger grid generator sizes are heavier.

Likewise, there could be a few larger battery sizes, but each ship could have a maximum battery size.

So.. this whole "grid generator" thing, just to keep powercells picked up after combat generally-applicable? Isn't that kind of elaborate?

I'd like a little more exposition on why "too many ship specific batteries is a problem". It won't be for the UI, we can stick them all in a list and put the current-ship ones at the top and highlighted. It will be for picking up post-combat items.

We could also make certain upper-level powercells basically "modifiers", so you could pick up an UltraCharge for a valk and have the "modifier" be applied to your current prom cell. I dunno. I'm not sure how much I really like that either, it gets a little weird.

I guess I'm just not sure how much the "picking up post-combat powercells" is an issue. Would appreciate further feedback there.

I think it would be good to do this, upgradeable engines, and scrap the multitudes of generic variants of ships we have.

That is, when a player buys a ship they buy the basic Mk I hull. Except we're not calling anything Mk I - IV anymore, those don't exist. The only variants are special faction-specific versions(which may or may not have upgrade options).

After buying a basic ship hull, the player can spend more money to upgrade the engine, battery, grid power, etc and tweak the setup to how they would like based on available parameters. Ideally, the system would have certain upgrades force a player to sacrifice a bit elsewhere to keep everything balanced out. So for example, if the player decides they want a 'heavy engine'¹ upgrade they find they only have enough (physical space|cpu power|magic fairy dust) to put on a medium battery upgrade, which specializes their ship more towards an interceptor role. Whereas a different player goes for the more modest 'medium engine' upgrade and can use a fast charge battery upgrade to get some extra juice for a better ability to engage in energy combat over a wide area like Border Skirmish.

To handle the UC and special salvageable components, there could be a sort of system not unlike upgrading equipment in fantasy games, so you'd end up with a ship with a +1 engine, or +4 battery- within certain limits. Maybe have a UC upgrade only apply once, and only available to mentors via the station(reduces reselling of mentor rewards and removes the incentive to make alts, mentor them, and then use that to sell off UC batts²). Make upgrading with salvaged stuff have a chance to fail and brick your ship, costing extra repairs for an engine replacement, or what-have-you.

Considering the increase of ship options now over when both powercells and engines were generic items, if implemented right this could help add a bit more depth to VO combat beyond just tachs and UC batts or triflare rigs with FC cells being standard.

¹ - I'm using older terminology to help me explain a bit better. Back in Alpha, it used to be that we had generic engines-- standard?, light, medium, efficient, and heavy. But it worked out with the powercells that you usually only used a handful of setups because the others were just...inferior.

² - I have no idea if this is a problem or intended or even widespread, but it seems weird to me that this is even possible.

Perhaps a more generic solution. Multiple cell slots - (1 per weapon slot?) and a small series of smaller cells. Mix and match at will.

Ie:

new fc cell:
Capacity 50
Charge 10
mass 25 Kg
grid- 5

new heavy batt:
Capacity 100
Charge 8
mass 50 Kg
grid- 3

BTW battery capacity usually is proportional to weight so twice the storage should also be twice the mass.

why not just make grid power related to the ship? so trade ships always have low grid power and combat ships have higher grid power that would be much easier to balance then "oh well this person might have x battery that lets them use y load out and makes them a power house player" For the longest time I have thought that every ship having 20 grid was rediculous and really a pointless feature.

why not just make grid power related to the ship?

That's a good point. That's essentially what inc is trying to accomplish with the new system of batteries though.

[Stamp of "Do it, now"]