hauling something as heavy as 200 laws dosent have to be hard, just use the design flaws placed for us in the game.

undock, jettison cargo, get up speed and pick up the cargo with a running start.

I should also add on, since it's now been mentioned:

The XC is intended to haul ore and other commodities. It's not designed to be as weapons platform, nor a weapons transport.

If you want to make the argument about armor and thrust still. Strip some extra armor off the thing, offer is as an XC Light variant, and move on. Or argue that the ship's engines were not beefed up because it wants to hold cargo room. The ship is good at it's purpose.

I also think the whole weapons thing needs to be dropped. The entire point about it being armed is moot. The XC is not an armed ship and never should be, so I don't know why we've bothered to continue to discuss it.

I do not think that the XC needs to have weapons. The idea of the XC is trade. Trading is trading, and it doesn't matter what you trade, because it makes a profit nonetheless. Weapons tend to be much heavier, and therefore, trading ships should be able to trade these items with relative ease.
It stands now that it takes about 4 or 5 minutes, just to exit the sector, let alone try and dock.

Restrict top speed, and spin torque, but increase thrust to 550N.

At least, now, you can say you did some honest days work to deserve all that money XC brought you.
You want more money faster?
Does your greed ever end?

Trading is not trading, different transport ships are better at transporting certain goods. Try using the light moth to ferry weapons.

/me facepalms at the sight of a paradox.

It seems to me that XC trades off engine for additional cargo space, if you want more thrust, pick mining or basic moth...
Or if it's really *totally* unusable for any kind of cargo them maybe a slight thrust increase but it should still be less than other moths.

I hauled a few thousand cu of cargo in one last night. It's unarmed, slow as heck and steers like an aircraft carrier. But...it hauls the load.

Giving it more thrust will not help it survive against another player. It may help the boredom factor, but it's a space semi. It is supposed to be slow. I think it's fine like it is

Giving it more thrust will not help it survive against another player. It may help the boredom factor

That sounds like an argument in favor of increasing thrust. Helps boredom? Doesn't alter player interaction dynamic? Done.

I really don't see why the XC should be the only transport ship. Its useful enough as a bulk transport, sure, but for really heavy stuff like equipment you might as well go with a Marauder or a Centaur. You'll transport the stuff a lot faster than any of the Moths; it'll just take a few more trips.

You don't understand, even with a centaur or Maud, these things are really fucking heavy. And It is true, it would not help escape a player or npc of that matter. I don't see what downsides there are.

What no one has noted is that increasing thrust increases the net speed of the ship. For example:
(and these are random figures, not pulled scientifically, they are for demonstration only)

Current Moth XC:
Accelerates 1m/s every .5 seconds (average lets say). Top speed is 160m/s.
This means it takes, an average of 80 seconds for the current XC to reach top speed.
Factoring for 0-max speed distance traveled...in the first 80 seconds you cover: 6,480m. (2+4+6+8+10+12+etcetc to +160)

Now, if you increase the thrust of the ship to say, 1m/s every .25 seconds, the ship will now travel that same distance in only 1/2 the time, meaning in 40 seconds, the ship covers 6,480m, and in the standard 80 seconds, the ship will actually cover 12,880m ((160*40)+6,480)

Now, if I am a pirate or what-have-you, and I want to raid that ship, I now have to account for the fact my prey is faster, which means I need to reconsider my Mass, my own Thrust-Weight ratios, and my energy consumption (can I afford energy weapons, or do I need Missiles/Rails, etc?)

This "THRUST" increase while it doesn't increase the top cruising speed of the vessel, it does increase the speed at which it gets there, which gives it longer duration burn time at the elevated speed.

Thus, unlike what bull350 said, it can directly effect PvP dynamics.

As a pirate, let me say you're a moron, Pyro.

We all understand the bit of mental masturbation you just did, we understood it before, and we're saying that it will basically have no effect on PvP encounters because the XC is already such a slug. At the margins, could it change an outcome? Maybe--but it's too remote to bother mentioning.

I think it is a bit ridiculous to say that weapons should not be traded in large amounts. How, then?

And it is also ridiculous to demand that others curb their greed just because oneself pretends not to be greedy.

It used to be that we didn't have a moth at all, and we had to do bulk shipments with multiple runs or stockpiling. But then the devs added it, and it was good.

Then, people started complaining that 120cu's somehow wasn't enough. To compromise, they came up with a gutted moth to justify the extra 80cu's of cargo room (thus was born the XC).

Now people want to un-nerf the deliberately underpowered XC Moth, removing the fundamental balances on its design, so that they can ferry cargo which it wasn't designed to transport.

Yes, weapons are heavy. Get used to it. The fact that they're hard to transport is why every station doesn't have the same selection of stuff; transporting pre-manufactured equipment takes a lot of time and, therefore, money. Have the patience to build up your stockpiles in smaller shipments, and if you're trying to make money off of trading weapons, recognize that you are in a niche market and are not likely to be catered to.

There is also the fact that a loaded XC is going to accelerate a lot slower then an unloaded one.....making a loaded XC a better target....

Actually what the XC really needs is better steering control under heavy load not accelleration. I think the turbo could be sacrificed and the main engines beefed up with out really distrubing the overall balance of the XC.

A limit to the max rate of change or governor to prevent over steering when empty might be also considered....

Lecter: Soft-spoken as usual I see.

I'm not suggesting that increasing thrust is a BAD thing, as long as it's done in a responsible and harmonious manner.

The current Moth standard generates 550N thrust
The current Moth XC generates 350N thrust

Now, jumping the XC to the Standard's thrust would effectively make the Standard a far more obsolete vessel (yes, I recognize an armed variant would still have it's uses, but it wouldn't be AS commonly used).

Now if the XC got a jump to 400-450N of thrust, with an increase from 50/s drain to 52-55/s drain on it's batteries I think it would re-balance the scales. If you want to be super-sticky, and negotiate for a turn-speed hike, the current 14Nm could be moved to 15-16Nm (still below the Standard Variant's 19Nm).

This thread has gotten so wrapped up in the thrust issue alone, I think we've not yet gotten to the point where we are considering some of the balance issues.

All of that in consideration, I agree with pyroman about the balance, however, it should be: (or we could create another variant even!)

500N,
54 drain/s
15Nm Turn

Generally, you don't decrease engine power to make more room for items, you decrease armor, which is what they have done, so by introducing drain to this moth, it could have a more powerful engine, but with reduced time in turboing. This could also bring about the turn rate faster as well.

Keep discussion coming. ;)

PaKettle, you are onto something there, it is not so much too slow as too hard to control. A better steering algorithm for all ships would be a welcome change.