There are so many turrets in azek why have any in latos?

Azek's safety has traditionally been marginal, and no it's defenses are so over kill that it is impacting latos.

I would like to see all of grey's borders more finely cut, but this has got to top the list.

I never thought I'd say it, Roda, but...

[Stamp of approval]

I'd go farther, in fact. Take the turrets out of all but capitol systems.

Yes.

Border turrets in nation space are fine but I never understood why those turrets on the grey side exist.
They are useless since they allow wh camping for players without nation KOS and still function as choke points.

Border turrets inside were even more useless. That's why we moved them outside. We debated all of this last year (please don't resurrect that thread).

[EDIT]: There were also some other threads that specifically pointed out how hilariously ineffective the "inside" turrets were. I'm not going to hunt around for it.

That's very nice, Inc.

The fact of the matter is that there are (1) turrets inside of the Latos-Azek WH that can blow a speeding Greyhound out of space, and (2) turrets at the Azek side of the Azek-Dau WH that do the same. Then there are turrets on the Dau side for all 3 Dau WHs, and turrets at the two Dau capital stations.

The turrets are no longer "hillariously ineffective." If anything, their shots/missiles are retardedly fast and amazingly well-targeted. The only hillarious thing is that they fire shots that cannot be reliably outrun by any ship in the game, even when starting to flee from a great (+1000km) distance.

How many such turrets does that corridor into UIT space need, exactly?

If there are turrets at Azek I-16 (the inside of the Azek-Latos WH) then that's not intentional, and they should probably be removed. They should only be on the outside, in Latos H2.

To recap, our turret-based nation defenses work thusly:

- Turrets outside of nation borders, no turrets inside (unless there is a station, and the station has its own turrets; that's a separate case).
- Turrets inside and outside of nation Capitols.

Regarding "hilariously ineffective":

The cannon turrets are exactly the same as they were when they were regarded as "hilarious ineffective". And I managed to fly past them many times myself.

The missile turrets are definitely quite a bit more lethal, and more importantly, will muck up your trajectory enough to let the aforementioned cannons nuke the crap out of you. Together, they're a reasonably effective combination. But they can still be passed by a skilled pilot (as various YouTube videos posted here have shown).

Past testing demonstrated that, together, the defense turrets are far more effective on the outside of a wormhole than on the inside. If this has somehow changed, I'm not sure why, as I haven't altered anything.

Update: There are no turrets in Azek I-16, I just checked. So, there are no "turrets inside of the Latos-Azek WH that can blow a speeding Greyhound out of space".

Perhaps you're thinking of Arta Caelestis, which is a capitol system, and therefore has the same rules as all other capitols (posted above). Arta borders on Ukari, not Latos.

I'm probably thinking of the other side of Azek, then. It's not worth any time playing about around there, since it's more or less a dice roll, rather than skill, on survival.

Well, you could apply some teamwork and have another pirate distract the turrets while you slip through.

No, I'll just roll with your general changes of "let's screw up any difference between UIT and Serco/Itani nation space security." Other hits in that approach seem to include subfactions that love you randomly excluding you from docking with them for killing UIT in space not monitored by the subfaction. Which sorta guts the piracy options--nowhere to dock, and you surely can't leave UIT space with any loot due to the turrets--and while I do occasionally go grief people for kicks, I prefer to actually pirate.

You want em to be totally safe? Fine, no skin off my nose.

Inc, as far as the turrets on the greyside of wormholes go, they are a tad less effective at keeping stuff out than those on the inside (from my experience.)

Turrets on the exit-side of a jump will kill you almost every time because they start to shoot before you get ship control after the jump. Turrets that I'm flying past to ENTER a wormhole are rather easier to deal with. Again, this is just from what I've done, maybe things are radically different for other ppl.

Spedy: Thanks.

Lecter: I see nothing wrong with changes that require a little organization and teamwork amongst pirates. I think you could get in and out if you were properly motivated to work with others. The fact that you're able to even contemplate getting in there alone pretty much defeats the whole "totally safe" argument.

But I've already talked enough about this in the past, augmenting with stealth options, player (pirate) capships, blah blah. Other gameplay mechanics allow rate-limiting to be built in, to mitigate the impact, rather than just arbitrarily removing defenses. If I remove the missiles you hate so much, the cannon turrets are completely useless. I mean, I can get past them. So basically Nation space then becomes "trivial piracy" again.

And just because you're an employee of say.. Ford, or Apple, or any other multi-national, that doesn't mean they're going to hide you when you show up at their with a bajillion squad cars on your tail. The corporations have to be law-abiding, within UIT space, to maintain their presence there.

1: Take an escort from Latos N-2 to somewhere in UIT.
2: Wait for the escort to get about halfway to the H-2 WH.
3: Boost through without getting shot much under cover of the NPC bots.
4: ???*
5: Profit!

*This step probably involves piracy in some way, but I can imagine pirates sneaking into UIT space to do a spot of mining or quick trading, if they're so inclined. (Just be happy I didn't accuse you of having teaparties!)

Incarnate what they are sort of trying to tell you is to ease up up the nationspace protection. I also agree with this as the newb sectors are in place. Perhaps you could move a few turrets from the grey side of the worm holes to the inside of the capitol systems.

Latos/azek - 4 turrets in latos
Azek/Dau - 16 turrets in dau or 8 turrets on each side

I am kind of curious why UIT has two capital systems. At any rate the turrets are primarily to protect the newbs. Arta while a cap system could be a little less secure BUT since there is an alternate route either way would be fine.

A different and amusing thought is to have a turret respond to a single faction hate or worse. If you only had KOS with 1 faction then only 1 turret would shoot at you but if you were universal KOS then 13 turrets would be firing.....

Well, look, I'm ok with "easing up" on the border turrets. But that won't impact Arta Caelestis, which geographically has been one of Lecter's pet peeves for some time (it's a Capitol, it's going to remain a Capitol, let's all move on). Also, all nations have at least two Capitol systems, to allow distribution of newbies when there's a major influx at one time.

The other issue is what "easing up" means. I mean, there's a lot of complaining about how "fast" the cannon shots are and all that, but the reason why I had to add the stupid super-fast missiles is because the cannons are freakin' trivial. Making defense weaponry that's "difficult" while not "impossible" is actually pretty tough. Things tend to be either "stupidly-easy" or "impossible", with little transition.

I made the cannons shoot giant collision spheres and go insanely fast, and they still couldn't hit a person well enough. So, I could, in theory, dial down the intensity of the turret missiles.. make them a little slower, do a little less damage, something like that. But I'd have to be careful, because, again.. the transition from "tough" to "nothing" is a far finer line than most of the posts here would imply.

Keep it up Inc! It's a good sign when the griefers whine about not being able to escape past defenses! That is the whole point isn't it? Making nation space actually... defended? And dangerous to its enemies.

[Point for Devs]

Well, yes and no, moldy, although I appreciate the support. My goal was/is to make a "gradient" of defensive difficulty, not just an absolute border of terror. I have some limited sympathies for the pirates, but I still think the existing "border" (not Capitol) turrets could be passed with some clever teamwork. Back when I implemented these, I expected that sort of thing to become de rigueur fairly quickly (usually you guys find the optimal solutions right away).

Still, I'm not against some degree of "toning down", but I think some reality check is required in analyzing these defenses. They are the way they are because I could pass the earlier ones too easily. I generally assess the average VO vet as being considerably better than me.

I always thought running through a system with a strike force on my ass was scary enough, but I haven't been hated by anybody since I was a newb.

For pirates, it's not just a matter of getting in. It's a matter of getting in with a ship that has a decent cargo hold, stealing something, and getting out with a full hold. Can you get past the turrets in a Centaur? How about a loaded Centaur?

I think low-effectiveness capgauss turrets on the border with capgauss/ubermissile turrets in capitol systems would be a reasonable gradient of danger.

Note that I have no pirate characters, and never have. I just think nation space is too safe, and I'd like to see a little more danger in the outlying areas.

Part of the argument right now is also the fine line / distinction between griefer and pirate. The defenses are set right now to reduce griefers it seems.

Also I have noticed that most "pirates" (using general term this time) work solo even if in guild. Most don't have a team set up or group mechanics for pirating.

Good job incarnate on working on balances. I do understand what you mean.