Note: I started to post this in the "bring back NPC pirates" thread but it was a bit of a hijack.. So here goes..

I swear momerath42 just implied that this game was written in lisp.. *sniff* I'm so proud.. I have the last page of your source code wanna see what it looks like? "))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))" Sorry old joke, couldn't resist..

I find it amusing that when player retention is ever brought up in a PVP game; The PVE players blame griefers. The griefers.. er sorry the PVP players say things like Nu-uhs! or "How do you know that griefers are the main problem?" etc..

I don't define all PVP players as griefers – it's a PVP game after all and players need to realize that coming in.. I do however say that if you are a PVP pro and some new player ambles along and you kill him without giving him warning or a chance just so you can laugh.. you're a griefer and part of the problem.

If on the other hand you're a PVP player that talks to the new player warns them or helps them, maybe explains things to them and are generally friendly...then kills them.. welp that's all in good fun. You still get your chuckle and the new player doesn't come away burnt.. Many games suffer the gank first issue... This game isn't as bad as some.

In fact, so far I think this game is a lot better than EVE when it comes to getting griefed.. In my first 24 hours in EVE I was griefed in "newbie" space 5 or 6 times by 5 or 6 different people.. Eve was down right caustic where griefing was concerned..

I have only been an active paying player in VO for a couple days and I have yet to be griefed.. More over, people have been overwhelmingly polite and helpful (Thought 100 chat does get annoying and immature from time to time..)

So as far as I am concerned this game doesn't have a griefer problem even though it apparently does have the odd few as defined by others.. However, if though you know that X person is always roaming around grey space and that he will kill you if you go there.. is he a griefer or just a prat? I don't think they are the same..

Which brings me to the real reason I think players aren't staying, and why you have the griefer problem you do have.. Players are bored.

Whether they are a PVP or PVE player.. who cares.. the game provides them with very little to do..

The core of your game should be PVE, sorry but if you want retention then you NEED to focus on the PVE aspect of your game. Look at every MMO out there, without a large stash of stuff for the PVE'ers to do they will get bored and quit. (Every MMO has had to learn this lesson and those that have succeeded have a large PVE element, even those that are PVP in focus.)

PVP'ers want players to PVP with. Well.. Add more stuff for PVE'ers to do, and suddenly you have more players.. more players means more targets for the PVP'ers.. Fixing one, fixes the other.

Then you need to design and develop a reason for a PVP player to not just gank someone. I mean really what's the incentive for someone to NOT kill someone in grey space? Other players call you a griefer if you do it, but so what.. Why not? It's not against the rules.. fairs fair.. Maybe if you designed a system that awarded or punished players accordingly, there wouldn't be as large a pirate population.

OR, conversely you allow the pirates to do their thing and award other players for pirate hunting.. I love the idea of NPC pirates.. but what about roving bands of NPC Pirate hunters? Whatever.. Either way you need more content. Period.

The issue there is that adding content is complex and time consuming. Dev's could spend 1000 hours making only 30 minutes of content that players will burn through in one sitting.. Not very cost effective for their time.. thus many games have gone so far as implementing a way for players to create their own content.. Or random mission generators.. Etc.. (CoH did this and their numbers have swelled)

Either way, the issue right now as I see it is that there isn't a lot for players to do on the surface and players are bored.. I can see there is depth there, in that there is more going on but you have to look at it from a new players perspective which is something that the devs just can't do as they KNOW all the ins and outs.

I would also argue that there is nothing in place to make your character “yours”. Most games provide you a way to personalize your character such that you as a player can identify with it.. Whether that be a customized avatar, unique hair style, custom ship or set of clothing..whatever.. It's part of what makes you who you are and suddenly you take pride in it..

I realize it sounds stupid to some of you but it goes a long way towards making a character more identifiable in the eyes of the creator.. thus making the player want to stick around and do good things with the character.. It's a pride in ownership thing.. if you can figure out a way to invest a player in his or her toon such that they take pride in what they have created, they'll stick around..

Upon character creation, most games take the starting player by the hand and walk them through a very lengthy questline to not only teach them the game but also to engage them.

As it stands now, VO suffers greatly when it comes to having a character you identify with or take pride in and there is virtually no engagement. Even EVE has a character creation process.. Sure its pointless.. but helps to engage the player..

You also have the added problem of dated graphics.. There is a reason that games update their graphics often.. Most people are very visual creatures and as such we want to see wizzbang coolness.. If you have a game that has awesome gameplay you can get away with goofy or stylized graphics, but VO doesn't have that.. VO needs better graphics if it wants to survive..

I'm a new player and I know I don't know everything, but I have been playing MMO's since the early days of MUDs and have likely played every game you care to mention. So take a new players experience to heart and you can fix your game. Make no mistake, it does need fixing. Very soon Jumpgate Evolution is coming out and if you guys don't start now to make VO better and I mean quickly, I fear the worst.

tl; dr

If you can't be bothered to read the post.. why reply to it?

Because he likes trolling. :P
And I agree with you, there are a couple griefers who go around killing newbs, but most of VO's PvP population is made up of nice, helpful people. The real problem is the lack of content, which the developers already know. Unfortunately there are only 4 developers so they can't get things done very fast, and although there have been a couple graphics updates recently they don't have a dedicated modeller / graphics artist which means updated textures and stuff don't happen very often.
One thing that you (and other people) can do to help improve the game is join the Player Contribution Corps. You can make missions and (if you know Lua) improve the interface if you join. :)

At one point some of the NPC code (Border Skirmish, Hive Skirmish, NPC convoys, NPC pirates which we don't have anymore) was written in Lisp, but they switched over to Erlang after some problems they couldn't fix.

Nothing wrong with Erlang.. Its nice and dynamic.. I know several developers that would love to work in a game engine written in lisp or erlang..

I'll take a look at the PCC thanks.

I do appreciate the feedback, and we're well aware of the issues you bring up. In fact, that's why we recently re-worked the whole newbie experience, and are going to be doing a lot more around that. Unfortunately, our development resources are spread rather thin, and we've had some occasional annoyances crop up (billing system issues, server performance problems) that required lengthy debugging. With a company our size, much of the juggling problem is in applying the resources we have to both keep the veteran players happy (mid/higher level content) versus helping introduce the newbies to what the game really has.

Anyway, thanks for posting.

I agree with the char customization that was one of the things i felt was missing when i first joined even a simple avatar or something that pops up when you press K would be nice. Also ship paint would be really nice like I really want an all black x1 with a white skull and cross bones on its nose or maybe an all yellow one with a black skull and cross bones or or or...etc

oh ps you are a newb and ill kill you in grey

Palamedes said If you can't be bothered to read the post.. why reply to it?

Cause Lecter's a huge dick-bag? Not content with just not reading the post, he feels the need to reply solely to inform you of his active disdain towards your post, with an extra helping of condescension.

Seriously, don't worry about Lecter & peytros. They're of little consequence.

The "avatar" for this game is essentially your ship, and like you said, some customization would go a long way towards making the player care just a little bit about their "toon." Obviously there would need to be some oversight of graphics (I can easily see a squadron of flying penises, Spore, anyone?) but the ability to flesh out a character would definitely make the game more interesting.

Oh, and allowing players to join grayspace corporations as their faction instead of Itani/Serco/UIT would be pretty kickass, as well.

Quote: You also have the added problem of dated graphics.. There is a reason that games update their graphics often.. Most people are very visual creatures and as such we want to see wizzbang coolness.. If you have a game that has awesome gameplay you can get away with goofy or stylized graphics, but VO doesn't have that.. VO needs better graphics if it wants to survive...

If you dial up the graphics all the way to eleven, you get decent graphics (for an MMO). Even WoW doesn't look as pretty when you have to tone down the eye candy. And one of the things I (and some others) think are great in VO is that the system requirements allow you to play the game on fairly weak computers.

Leber, on the other hand, has some large consequences. Lack of aerobic capacity, erectile dysfunction, coronary artery disease, and border-line diabetes no doubt among them.

Out of work, Lecter?

Waiting on getting a brief signed, yeah. Hurry up and wait, after an all nighter, makes me grouchy.

Go play with yourself then :P

Hehe. I have the suspicion that people in Lecter's line of work are NEVER out of work. Although none of those deficiencies hementioned come into play for me. (Yet.) Haven't thought about the diabetes, though...

Seriously, Palamedes, take a look at the PCC if you have a creative scripting urge, AND have a good story to tell. Nothing worse than 500 missions that are essentially variations on "Go here, kill this thing, report back."

Maybe he's just not that into you?