Forums » Suggestions

creating money sinks for the average player

12»
Apr 16, 2009 peytros link
right now there is all this talk about creating money sinks which is good (i e cap ships and stations) which are also seen as an endgame type of solution and are meant from groups and the extremely rich player.

with the expansion of greyspace that inc is talking about I have some suggestions for creating midway money sinks between being a newby in a ec 89 and the super rich players who cay pay for stations and cap ships right out of their pocket right now.

Black market deep in grey and by deep I don't mean in sedina or odia with the expansion I picture there being some grey systems that take multiple grey space jumps (around 5 or so) to get too this would be a good place to sell nation ships (scp x1 ibg svg etc..) for 2 to 5 times their in nation value.

there have also been a lot of good suggestions for ships on this board and as lorenz (sp?) pointed out everyone is used to flying around in the top of the line ships. well insted of taking this away from players why not create a new tier of ships that would be better then the existing ones but cost considerably more. Between 500k and 1 mil would be a good starting point for these ships, which will also kill two birds with one stone ( adding new ships and creating a money sink) along with this some top tier weapons need their prices increased like AAPs n3s agts swarms gats UCs and FCs could all use a boost in their pricing.

the idea of this is I and probably a lot of other players that focus more on combat never really feel a pinch, I will probably never own a station or a capship (although i will enjoy blowing up others) but dying really has no financial effect on me so I also propose all nation specific ships double in price
Apr 16, 2009 Aticephyr link
Black market deep in grey and by deep I don't mean in sedina or odia with the expansion I picture there being some grey systems that take multiple grey space jumps (around 5 or so) to get too this would be a good place to sell nation ships (scp x1 ibg svg etc..) for 2 to 5 times their in nation value.
No. Player time is valuable... which is part of why x1's and the like in greyspace are so valuable. time bringing down x1's is time not earning money (cept through escorts... which will change soon).

Some top tier weapons need their prices increased like AAPs n3s agts swarms gats UCs and FCs could all use a boost in their pricing.
n3's are incredibly, ridiculously cheap. I bought 1000 yesterday for under a mil. That's insane. I'll agree that these could use a price bump. Across the board bumps might be much without some intermediary guns being introduced (depending on how high the bump is of course).

why not create a new tier of ships that would be better then the existing ones but cost considerably more.
That's what cappies and the like will be, so no. I don't think we need super-x1's. Such terrific ships would die rarely, making their high initial cost not that much of an impediment to purchase.

I like the idea (posted elsewhere) about instant travel services (won't transfer cargo or ships, just you) that cost, say, 250k per WH. That you've taken this measure might need to be broadcast somewhere though... so chasing doesn't become 100% impossible.

I'd also suggest making the really high-return trade items worth a much larger initial cost (but keep the profits the same or slightly increased). That way loss of high-profit cargo will mean one hell of a loss overall (moneysink). Then again... there would need to be fiddling here, but I think the idea is solid.
Apr 16, 2009 Dr. Lecter link
(1)Such terrific ships would die rarely, making their high initial cost not that much of an impediment to purchase.

Try repairing a badly damaged Greyhound--it's cheaper to buy a new one.

(2) We've needed a black market in nation ships for some time, and I think that Odia Capital would be a good place to set that up. Like the Greyhound, they should be horribly expensive and only available there--which jacks their repair cost elsewhere up far above the initial purchase price. However, the SCP and the X1 should not be available--we need new prom, valk, SVG and IBG variants with slightly nerfed stats and new names. These are "fell off the back of the Connie" ships.

(3) Yes, yes, yes to higher cost=higher profit margin goods. Sedina Chocolates were, until nerfed in terms of profits, a good example. 100,000 credits per cu for a 1 cu trade junk would be a good incentive if the profits were 5 or so times higher than those available for other, lower buyin goods.

We could start by adding an extra zero or two to the costs of the new trade items for Nation-Grey.
Apr 16, 2009 Aticephyr link
Try repairing a badly damaged Greyhound--it's cheaper to buy a new one.
The Greyhound is not part of a new tier of ships which is better than the previous ones, but rather simply was created with a different purpose than the previous ships. If pey were talking about creating new specialty ships (of which I think there may be enough already) instead of new super-ships, I would not have dismissed the point so quickly.

We could start by adding an extra zero or two to the costs of the new trade items for Nation-Grey.
I am hesitant to make them so prohibitively expensive, though: as income becomes harder to come by, we don't want only the super-wealthy to be able to make large profits (further widening the gap between the super-wealthy and not). We would need some progressive scale so that the new traders would eventually be able to afford these money-sinks. A money-sink is not a tax, its a sink. Let's make that clear.
Apr 16, 2009 PaKettle link
I see peytros is still jealous :P

Assuming nations ships become exclusive then a black market of them should be created. Personally I would rather see players have the ability to buy and sell ships with each other then have a game mechanic handling it. This would keep the black market far more realistic in my opinion.

Psst! hey JB... got any valks?
Apr 16, 2009 blacknet link
This is lame. No need to have money sinks as those who have large bank accounts have worked their asses off for that amount. It's the crowd that does NOT have the balance that complains the most about things that should be addressed as they are the ones who cause more problems than those with.

Besides the average player does not understand avenues of economic income nor desires to learn it. This sink would only further hinder the have not's; the have's would just learn new ways to do what they did before.

Adding more zero's will do nothing of benefit to trade items as presented by Lecter.
Apr 16, 2009 peytros link
blacknet i think you missed the point of this thread. it was not aimed at the "haves" it was more geared towards players who already have sufficient funds but never have anything to spend it on, or people who do not wish to save up vast amounts for player owned capships and stations.

in other words I have around 10 million credits even if i went out and died a bunch in x1s i never feel a press to kill more then a few voys at a time or buy anything else.
Apr 16, 2009 Aticephyr link
blacknet seemed to be referring to Lecter's suggestion with the 0's and (possibly) your suggestion with the raising prices of weapons (at least that is my guess).

I don't think the "lame" comment was about credit sinks in general... I think everyone wants something to spend their cash on.
Apr 17, 2009 missioncreek2 link
This question of disposing of wealth is off the mark. Some players like to spend time earning credits. Many don't. For me it is a matter of how much time I can spend playing (fighting) versus grinding for cash. I fly heavy ships out of Sedina. The Tung Taur is available in Odia, but it is not worth the time to fly it to b8. With the recent increase in ship prices I have not been able to earn enough in escorts while fighting in b8 to cover my ship costs. I definitely do not want to see weapons costs go up too. After all, a Rag takes 5 weapons plus a battery to equip. The rag choices in d14 are mark I and III. The mark I is a terrible dog, so the expensive III is the only reasonable choice. At 100k per death it's too expensive already.

Please stop the inflation!
Apr 17, 2009 Dr. Lecter link
Please stop going through 100,000 credit rigs like Who?Me? goes through free buses.

As for blacknet's unsupported claim that adding zeros to the purchase price of the most lucrative trade items would be "without benefit": the point is that if you wish to make more profit per cu, you must take a bigger risk.

Making the most lucrative routes pass between Nation Capitals and Grey is one piece of that bigger risk (increased CHANCE of potential loss).

However, the cost of the goods one hauls is the other, and the per unit cost for Corvus Holodiscs is far too low to balance the risk of hauling them against their substantial profit margin. These highly profitable items simply must cost more in exchange for their greater potential benefit (increased SIZE of potential loss).

The benefit, in sum, is balanced by the risk, which is a function of CHANCE of a loss occurring at all, multiplied by the SIZE of the harm in the event of a loss occurring. Try looking up Learned Hand's negligence calculus sometime, blacknet. Until then, please don't say more than your intellect can back up. What I've outlined here is very simple stuff--so long as you stop and think about it before shooting off your mouth based on how you feel.
Apr 17, 2009 blackadder link
I would be in support of things for the wealthier players to buy and sell.

A person who earns themselves lots of money might be better served if they could actually buy things on a larger scale than what is currently available, if the necessary consideration is given to game balance ( which it generally is ).

There are lots of wealthy people in the 'verse who ( for instance ) face combat a lot. It seems likely someone would be willing to service this requirement.

I may be biased - I'm not a money-grubber in the game, I see little incentive in it that appeals to me. This sort of thing might change that.
Apr 17, 2009 Death Fluffy link
"However, the cost of the goods one hauls is the other, and the per unit cost for Corvus Holodiscs is far too low to balance the risk of hauling them against their substantial profit margin. These highly profitable items simply must cost more in exchange for their greater potential benefit (increased SIZE of potential loss)"

It sounds like your suggesting that for a 600,000cr profit I should be risking 2 to 3 million credits or more instead of the 1 million I currently risk? It takes a 20 to 30 minute trip across 8 wh's since nobody loves porn like the Serco. The profit is actually closer to 530,000cr since as there is currently no return route, it costs roughly 70,000cr for a new moth each time I explode back to M14. At present, the loss of one ship will require 2 successful trips just to break even.

My opinion is that the cost of the goods is too high, but I'm doing it just to give the enhanced routes a fair try. Raise the cost, and I lose any interest in pursuing this source of income. As I've said elsewhere, there is a reason I've never traded Sedina Chocolates, though I have had ample funds in the past to do so. Perhaps other traders would be inclined to accept this level of risk/reward.

Besides, its much more fun to fly around in moths filled with Free Power Cells. Just ask PeyBuddy.

Also, correct me if I'm misunderstanding what you are suggesting, but I believe you are saying Lecter, that for the higher profit per cube items, that the cost should be proportional. As long as my return on investment does not drop below 60%, I would be willing to experiment with the route. I'm not committing to full exploitation until I consider the other factors. I'm still evaluating the worth of the enhanced routes as it is.
Apr 17, 2009 Dr. Lecter link
I believe you are saying Lecter, that for the higher profit per cube items, that the cost should be proportional. As long as my return on investment does not drop below 60%, I would be willing to experiment with the route.

Yes. This should not just be you happen to find a magical item in Nation Space that -- for the same 1,000 credits per cu you pay for a normal item (that returns 500 credits profit per cu per 30 minutes trading) -- someone in Grey will buy at an insanely high price (returns 5000 credits profit per cu per 30 minutes trading). There must be major risk of loss for profits like that--and merely having to fly to Grey isn't enough of a risk, largely because there's rarely anyone to shoot you assholes. TWO WHOLE TRIPS to make up for a single loss?!?! OH TEH NOEEEESS!!!

If you think 60% returns on investment is a minimum, get the fuck out of the trading bussiness--or pitch yourself as the next Maddoff. You brats have been spoiled by the past several years of broken economics in VO--60% return on investment for flying from Odia to Sol II is not just out of balance, it's totally, hopelessly FUCKED.

As I've said elsewhere, there is a reason I've never traded Sedina Chocolates, though I have had ample funds in the past to do so. Perhaps other traders would be inclined to accept this level of risk/reward. This may have something to do with the fact that, shortly after Sedina Chocolates were implemented (at the same price per unit they're at now) the profit potential on them was capped by the Devs at a pathetic ~1000 credits per cu. Previously, they were giving something close to 10,000 credits per cu in profit.

Finally, don't be a lazy idiot: sell your moth and buy a free bus if you wish to /explode.
Apr 17, 2009 Death Fluffy link
Well, first, I do use free buses to /explode with. Selling the moth depends on whether that station already has one or more docked or not. At most stations moths sell at a 25% loss. This still requires me to buy a new moth for the next voyage.

Rarely anyone to shoot? Last poll I took during peak playing time, 15% of the active players were either known pirates or griefers. One quick kill of my moth and someone just made the same amount of profit for near zero risk that it take me an hour to make in 2 trips.

For the level of risk that is supposed to be involved in Grey trading, yes. Or I can run Lux goods from Eo or Arta all over Serco space and make a safer easier fortune. I was of the impression that Grey trading was supposed to be high profit / high risk. I'm hardly asking for the 500% margin I used to get on something like consumer electronics. I'm sure I could stock pile a station somewhere and have someone write me a plugin that autosells one unit each time the station reaches the max profit point.

If I'm not happy with the reward to risk ratio, then I will get the fuck out of the trading business, and the pirate community will still be stuck killing newbs trading nothing but crap proc items until they have their desired standing. Got to love that plasteel! Of course, you might try talking the devs into changing the proc items to something more profitable for you.
Apr 17, 2009 peytros link
fluffy you seem to think that flying an unarmed moth through greyspace is a good idea and then when a pirate hails you to pay you undermine their offer and complain about them shooting you. Also can we please try to get back on topic and stop complaining about griefers taking your precious cargoes it just makes you look like little school girls.

oh also fluffy stockpiling and having a plugin that auto sells is exactly whats wrong with this game Inc needs to crack down on you players who make a fortune off of barely doing anything because you have a plugin to do it for you. As far as I'm concered all this opposition from tgft is just cause their trade database will be fucking worthless after the economy gets fixed and they will have to go back to trading the old fashioned way.
Apr 17, 2009 Aticephyr link
it is on topic... we're talking about money sinks relative to cargo prices.
and that isn't what Fluffy is doing. Fluffy is saying that that particular money-sink doesn't help (at least to the extent that lecter put it), as the rewards atm don't justify the means, not to mention you can't hire an escort without severely cutting into your margin (VPR escorts for free... but I don't think anyone else does).
Apr 17, 2009 Dr. Lecter link
Or I can run Lux goods from Eo or Arta all over Serco space and make a safer easier fortune. I'm hardly asking for the 500% margin I used to get on something like consumer electronics.

No worries, kiddo. For starters, Deneb will become an unmonitored warzone (more than it is already). Whoops, no standing to save your ass now! Even better, you won't be POS everywhere: even UIT will only get to go "Respected" with both Serco and Itani--guess killing you in monitored space will be a lot less painfull, huh?

On the profit margin side, we're going to fix that whole "safer easier" and still make a "fortune" bit, which will also make the Grey route look a lot more attractive. Just like we fixed the retarded 500% profit on consumer electronics that allowed Annevit to make 1 billion credits at a shot--yes, he worked hard to do that in that he hauled stuff and stockpiled it, but really he worked hard to exploit a known flaw, if not an outright bug.

Plus, the third side of the trading triangle (risk of death, profit margin, and costs) will experience inflation. That "safer easier fortune" will soon become a "safer easier" bunch of pocket change. Because the credits made elsewhere just won't go very far, Grey space travel will be requisite for making serious profits as a trader, which is how it was always meant to be. We've been in Grey all along, and we look forward to your company. But really, this "NEVAR PAY TEH SCUMRATZ" thing? Lame.

We'll chat about it soon, but suffice to say that if you're carrying a 3 million credit cargo that will yeild you 750,000 credits in profit, you'd be well served to pay the 200,000 credits I ask for when I pull up next to you in my Hound. Not only will it keep you from losing everything in the few seconds it takes me to empty my battery into your hullplate, but it will buy you immunity from me (and in my specific case, [CLM]) for at least several runs, maybe the whole day. If you ask nicely, I might even escort you into your destination, indicating to other pirates that you're not to be extorted again during that run unless they want to fight me over it.

Finally, while this is off topic, I hate plugins. I hate LUA. While it is terribly regrettable that GS lacks sufficient resources to execute their vision of VO by themselves, these things will ultimately do far more harm than good--as Mr. "Well, I can just write something to hack the game" has demonstrated above.

By and large, people who developed plugins that give a competitive edge have shared them freely (big thumbs up to Scuba Steve and others here)--but there's no reason they have to, and GS should not be encouraging this sort of thing. It's little different from a trade bot.
Apr 17, 2009 Death Fluffy link
My well has run dry. At this point I have nothing more than speculation about what direction the dev's are headed. I've laid my position, preferences and views out to the extent of my limited capacity.

As to meeting you in game Dr., I have always had the following policy:
1) If I have a reasonable chance of escape, to flee
2) If I do not have a reasonable chance of escape, to pay a reasonable amount.
3) If I'm in a combat ship, to fight.
4) If VPR is available, I may call upon them to provide escort.
5) If I suspect that there are active players in my path that would rather destroy my ship than take a ransom, I remain docked or pursue other activities.
6) If a pirate pisses me off, I put coal in their stocking for xmas.

What ever is coming, I hope it enhances the game for us both.
Apr 17, 2009 Dr. Lecter link
My point is that the option of making any real profit by "playing it safe" and grinding out decent returns in Nation Space will soon(tm) be a thing of the past. You will have to go to Grey (as has always been intended by the Devs).

When you go to Grey, there will be a higher risk of being extorted or destroyed and the most profitable items on these runs will require a higher upfront investment in return for higher returns.

Get used to going to Grey, and putting your capital at risk when you do so, if you want to make it as a trader. End of rant.
Apr 17, 2009 davejohn link
Money sinks ?

You do realise that some of us just like arranging it all in neat piles and watching it glitter......

Seriously though, the game is hopefully moving from a cash base to a more resource based economy. We will not be able to buy stations and top ships , we will have to provide the resources to manufacture and maintain. The SL is the first example of what I hope will become many manufacturable items.

As the game moves that way large bank balances become irrelevant, since knowledge and skill in getting resources become the predominant characteristics of a good player.

I appreciate all this is going to take a while. In the meantime I suggest worrying about who has how much money is pointless.

Ecka