Forums » Suggestions
Player designed ships
I apologize if this is an old suggestion. I searched the Suggestions forum and didn't find it anywhere. If it is an old suggestion mentioned in another thread please email me (oddjobbob@gmail.com) and I will delete this post and append that thread.
Also, being new, it may be this is something that exists that I haven't found. If so let me know so I can put that to use and delete this thread as a suggestion.
SHOULD I ADD THIS TO THE "New Addon/Ship Suggestion Thread?"
A few suggestions I have read have included ideas for helping VO be more profitable. Part of that will happen by getting more people. Getting more people will happen as players develop a stronger "buy-in" in to the game. This suggestion is made as a way to help players develop a stronger "buy-in."
Develop a ship developer's kit. It would be a stand alone module that allows players who like to design stuff and create stuff (that's not me, to tell the truth) to design ships around the chassis of the ships already in play.
The Ford Mustang, one of the most successful cars ever designed, was based on the pre-existing Ford Falcon chassis. This allowed Ford to produce the Mustang very affordable. Anyone looking at the two cars would likely have doubted that the underlying foundations were identical.
In this SDK (Ship Development Kit) someone could use the chassis for a given ship, say. The new ship couldn't have more weapons than exist on the "floor" model. It couldn't take on more cargo, or have more mass. It would have the same restrictions regarding who could buy it, but that wouldn't matter, as will be seen below, because the ship would be marketed differently from the floor model ships. All that someone could do is change the external look of the ship. Thats basically all that Ford did when they built the first Mustang.
Some of the requirements for this SDK would be that it not give away certain proprietary information. It would have to allow the players to develop the ships in one language, say, and then something else would translate that ship into the VO universe. BUT, the ownership for the ship would belong to the player. The ship would not show up in the list of ships available in the game. The player could, however, sell the ship to other players. The ship would "exist" in storage at a station. There need to be a way for ships be be transfered in the way that addons can be transfered. In this way the actual restrictions on purchase would be skirted. But even now, I believe, these restrictions can be skirted regarding addons.
Players could post images of their ship designs here in the message board. All kinds of new threads and arguments would start over subtle differences in ship designs. Factions would develop around a certain "look." Factions and nations would have their own designers who would cater to the faction members/citizens.
One good side to this would be that the VO devs wouldn't have to worry about ship design. All complaints about ship design would take place among players. And if I really HATE all the in-game ships... and don't want to pay for another player's design then I can build my own. In game ships would still be available to new players and anyone satisfied with the in-game offerings.
Lastly, and i make this suggestion with an abundance of caution. The SDK could be something that is purchased. This would increase buy-in, as well. But only if it is really, really good. The use of a purchased SDK has to include the possibility that players who use it can retain a "copyright" ownership for the ships they design and build and allow designers to sell their ships as they wish.
For a working model of how this might work I would suggest considering how SecondLife works with its designers/builders/scripters, and how Apple is using the iPhone SDK.
Also, being new, it may be this is something that exists that I haven't found. If so let me know so I can put that to use and delete this thread as a suggestion.
SHOULD I ADD THIS TO THE "New Addon/Ship Suggestion Thread?"
A few suggestions I have read have included ideas for helping VO be more profitable. Part of that will happen by getting more people. Getting more people will happen as players develop a stronger "buy-in" in to the game. This suggestion is made as a way to help players develop a stronger "buy-in."
Develop a ship developer's kit. It would be a stand alone module that allows players who like to design stuff and create stuff (that's not me, to tell the truth) to design ships around the chassis of the ships already in play.
The Ford Mustang, one of the most successful cars ever designed, was based on the pre-existing Ford Falcon chassis. This allowed Ford to produce the Mustang very affordable. Anyone looking at the two cars would likely have doubted that the underlying foundations were identical.
In this SDK (Ship Development Kit) someone could use the chassis for a given ship, say. The new ship couldn't have more weapons than exist on the "floor" model. It couldn't take on more cargo, or have more mass. It would have the same restrictions regarding who could buy it, but that wouldn't matter, as will be seen below, because the ship would be marketed differently from the floor model ships. All that someone could do is change the external look of the ship. Thats basically all that Ford did when they built the first Mustang.
Some of the requirements for this SDK would be that it not give away certain proprietary information. It would have to allow the players to develop the ships in one language, say, and then something else would translate that ship into the VO universe. BUT, the ownership for the ship would belong to the player. The ship would not show up in the list of ships available in the game. The player could, however, sell the ship to other players. The ship would "exist" in storage at a station. There need to be a way for ships be be transfered in the way that addons can be transfered. In this way the actual restrictions on purchase would be skirted. But even now, I believe, these restrictions can be skirted regarding addons.
Players could post images of their ship designs here in the message board. All kinds of new threads and arguments would start over subtle differences in ship designs. Factions would develop around a certain "look." Factions and nations would have their own designers who would cater to the faction members/citizens.
One good side to this would be that the VO devs wouldn't have to worry about ship design. All complaints about ship design would take place among players. And if I really HATE all the in-game ships... and don't want to pay for another player's design then I can build my own. In game ships would still be available to new players and anyone satisfied with the in-game offerings.
Lastly, and i make this suggestion with an abundance of caution. The SDK could be something that is purchased. This would increase buy-in, as well. But only if it is really, really good. The use of a purchased SDK has to include the possibility that players who use it can retain a "copyright" ownership for the ships they design and build and allow designers to sell their ships as they wish.
For a working model of how this might work I would suggest considering how SecondLife works with its designers/builders/scripters, and how Apple is using the iPhone SDK.
Mmm, penis-ships.
But, just as you say, such a system would be a very, very major deviation from the established gameplay and world model, and so would probably be best addressed to one of the several space-flight-sim-mmo's in their infancy, not VO.
But, just as you say, such a system would be a very, very major deviation from the established gameplay and world model, and so would probably be best addressed to one of the several space-flight-sim-mmo's in their infancy, not VO.
IP litigation hazard FAIL.
Cool idea, but like the two posts above me... probably the wrong place/time. Definately something that would have to be included in the original concept of the game mechanics, much like PotBS.
I like the idea...nothing wrong with adding new ships. Don't be put off by the responses you get here though, like many forums a good majority of the posters here...(though not all)...post only to vehemently object/disagree with or hate ideas that are not their own.
Here's another take on your idea that might work easier in game. If you fly from station to station you will find that they produce various ship related items...hull plating, engine mounts, vismetal cockpits...etc...etc...(in fact there is already a mission in game to make a ship, the Super Light.)
So, theoretically if a player were to obtain the right parts...(and there was a way to do so)...they could build a ship.
Most likely it would have to conform to the stats of existing ships to preserve the much loved (non-existent)balance. But, if they gather up all the parts and make a ship, perhaps they could then chose a basic hull design/cargo hold/weapons ports and then select from a group of cosmetic options...wings, cockpit shape, nose or tail design...etc...etc...
Here's another take on your idea that might work easier in game. If you fly from station to station you will find that they produce various ship related items...hull plating, engine mounts, vismetal cockpits...etc...etc...(in fact there is already a mission in game to make a ship, the Super Light.)
So, theoretically if a player were to obtain the right parts...(and there was a way to do so)...they could build a ship.
Most likely it would have to conform to the stats of existing ships to preserve the much loved (non-existent)balance. But, if they gather up all the parts and make a ship, perhaps they could then chose a basic hull design/cargo hold/weapons ports and then select from a group of cosmetic options...wings, cockpit shape, nose or tail design...etc...etc...
ryan, listen to them, they are right. Consider the amount of time it would take to create such an interface and then consider submissions by players. Think months, or more. Now consider this: do you wan this more than your own cap-ship? Is there anything in the works right now (FF-redux, economy rework, manufacturing) that you would happily kill just to see this come to being so that someone could fly a ship you designed? (betting that no one else designs it first)
Great idea, wrong platform/too late in the game
Great idea, wrong platform/too late in the game
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/9/18250?page=5
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/10209#124198
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/19303#242500
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/16424#207682
However:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/10209#124198
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/19303#242500
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/16424#207682
However:
Actually given what I'm hearing about player owned cappies...I'd be willing to give them up since without a massive new player influx the way they would operate is ridiculous, but thats a whole other topic.
All I'm saying is don't dismiss the idea, no one is saying "do it now". I know there are major things coming...but its still a cool idea to let players modify ships beyond the color. Some time in the future after more relevant things are taken care of, its some thing worth looking at.
All I'm saying is don't dismiss the idea, no one is saying "do it now". I know there are major things coming...but its still a cool idea to let players modify ships beyond the color. Some time in the future after more relevant things are taken care of, its some thing worth looking at.
The design environment couldbe pretty simple. Basic shapes like spheres, cubes, cylinders which can then be sliced, diced, stretched, and otherwise morphed, then connected. Individual pieces could be textured (i.e., colored, or otherwise given a surface pattern or print) before they are connected, or the whole could be afterwards. The ship size would have to conform to standards given for each class. This would be accomplished by each class of ship given a bubble of a certain size and shape into which the prospective design must fit. Also the design would have to be within a certain reasonable percentage of the bubble so as to preclude putting a tiny body on a massive chassis. The performance characteristics of the design would conform to the chassis and would not have room for deviation. This, whatever claim to balance is made now would be retained.
Lawyers might disagree but there are no real IP issues. No one has proprietary rights to fundamental shapes and their manipulation. Obviously the game itself doesn't impact on IP issues or I think Ambrosia Software would have brought a cease and desist order long ago for the remarkable similarity to Escape Velocity, EV Nova, and even Uplink. That is not to say Linden Labs might not consider an action if grounds actually exist, but obviously the devs know what they are doing when it comes to IP issue free development.
Look, I know this may not be the time for such an implementation but this forum is for "Gee, do you suppose such-and-so... might not be possible?"
I am way brand new to VO. I admit my "newguy" look and smell taints my suggestions. But it is hard for me to believe that VO is beyond such an implementation (if it's that quagmired, what's the point of hoping for improvements in anyway other than just making more empty space to fly the same twenty-five or so ships through?), and it is hard for me to believe VO is not the right platform for such an implementation. I suppose if the devs came out and said definitively VO isn't going there, or can't go there I might belive it. But for now I choose to look into the VO universe and ask "What if" and "Why not" rather than "What for" or "Why bother."
I rather think the devs have a good idea already how such a SDK couldbe put together. They've built the ships. How to package it for easy consumtion might be outside their ken right now. But the lack of that understanding hardly makes it un-understandable.
Lawyers might disagree but there are no real IP issues. No one has proprietary rights to fundamental shapes and their manipulation. Obviously the game itself doesn't impact on IP issues or I think Ambrosia Software would have brought a cease and desist order long ago for the remarkable similarity to Escape Velocity, EV Nova, and even Uplink. That is not to say Linden Labs might not consider an action if grounds actually exist, but obviously the devs know what they are doing when it comes to IP issue free development.
Look, I know this may not be the time for such an implementation but this forum is for "Gee, do you suppose such-and-so... might not be possible?"
I am way brand new to VO. I admit my "newguy" look and smell taints my suggestions. But it is hard for me to believe that VO is beyond such an implementation (if it's that quagmired, what's the point of hoping for improvements in anyway other than just making more empty space to fly the same twenty-five or so ships through?), and it is hard for me to believe VO is not the right platform for such an implementation. I suppose if the devs came out and said definitively VO isn't going there, or can't go there I might belive it. But for now I choose to look into the VO universe and ask "What if" and "Why not" rather than "What for" or "Why bother."
I rather think the devs have a good idea already how such a SDK couldbe put together. They've built the ships. How to package it for easy consumtion might be outside their ken right now. But the lack of that understanding hardly makes it un-understandable.
Heh-heh. Taint.
Lawyers might disagree but there are no real IP issues. No one has proprietary rights to fundamental shapes and their manipulation. Obviously the game itself doesn't impact on IP issues or I think Ambrosia Software would have brought a cease and desist order long ago for the remarkable similarity to Escape Velocity, EV Nova, and even Uplink. That is not to say Linden Labs might not consider an action if grounds actually exist, but obviously the devs know what they are doing when it comes to IP issue free development.
(1) As a lawyer, I disagree.
(2) The IP issues are created by the idiotic part of your suggestion (i.e., player created, in game content as to which the Devs do not clearly own any and all IP rights), and have nothing to do with VO itself infringing on IP rights held by other games. The potential problem, as Incarnate has pointed out before, is the business passing due dilligence were it to, say, seek to get a loan or sell itself or anything else where someone would want to know for sure that Guild could deliver 100% lawsuit free IP rights to everything in the game.
(3) If you stop writing about things of which you have no understanding, you'll look like an idiot less often.
(1) As a lawyer, I disagree.
(2) The IP issues are created by the idiotic part of your suggestion (i.e., player created, in game content as to which the Devs do not clearly own any and all IP rights), and have nothing to do with VO itself infringing on IP rights held by other games. The potential problem, as Incarnate has pointed out before, is the business passing due dilligence were it to, say, seek to get a loan or sell itself or anything else where someone would want to know for sure that Guild could deliver 100% lawsuit free IP rights to everything in the game.
(3) If you stop writing about things of which you have no understanding, you'll look like an idiot less often.
Well the draw for me was the fact that if you really are good at this sort of thing, you stand a good chance of winning an encounter with any of the ships. After years of playing stat based MMOs VO is a breath of fresh air. Twitch based combat based on the "25" or so ships in my mind is great. Why muck it up with 10,000,000,000 different ship designs?
What we need is way more content. Honestly how often do you sit around staring at your ship?
What we need is way more content. Honestly how often do you sit around staring at your ship?
Dr.L wrote:
1. "the idiotic part of your suggestion" ... "you'll look like an idiot less often"
Fortunately, not being a lawyer, when I write about legal stuff I expect to look sort of the idiot, so having that look pointed out is not great flash of insight. However, my experience with lawyers who are worth their salt is that, until they are getting paid to review a matter, the best you can get from them is a pursed-lip, "It depends." And even after they are being paid, and even after they have studied a matter ad nauseum, mostly all you get is a definitive, "It depends." And in any case, in my experience, lawyers who are worth their salt are very civil, but lawyers who make snap assessments and act with uncivility are angry or dangerous or both. I am guessing, having read several posts in other threads written by Dr.L that he is angry. Which is too bad because anger, like fear, is a mind killer.
2. "The IP issues are created by the idiotic part of your suggestion [...] and have nothing to do with VO itself infringing on IP rights held by other games."
Oh really? Is that your considered professional opinion? I am not a lawyer, as I have said, so looking like an idiot when it comes to discussing the law is no great shakes for me. However, if Dr.L is indeed a lawyer as he claims, his statement comes as a great surprise. Even an idiot, like me, should recognize that IP issues are created EXACTLY when one product infringes on the IP rights of another product. I think your anger, Dr., has killed a bit of your mind.
3. "someone would want to know for sure that Guild could deliver 100% lawsuit free IP rights to everything in the game."
Again, even and idiot, like me, recognizes that in our litigious society there is no thing anywhere that is 100% lawsuit free. Anyone, especially a lawyer, who makes a claim that such a thing as a 100% lawsuit free product exists is more than likely wringing his hands at the possibility of a large retainer over an impending lawsuit, speaking without knowledge of a matter, or simply lying. Any prospective lender to Guild, or buyer of Guild's product(s) that would demand such a guarantee before effecting such a loan or purchase is not serious about either. And any prospective lender or buyer who knows the VO style of play, the VO premise, as it were, and would believe VO is a product, even, and especially, in its present form, 100% lawsuit free of IP issues would believe I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale. I am certain I will show, again, my idiocy, but I would suggest VO is rife with IP issues, if other companies wanted to make the claim. Either that, or, there are at least a couple companies out there infringing on IP rights over which Guild could make a claim. But I would further suggest that the devs have found a way to walk in the jungle of IP issues and not wake any beasts.
bull350 wrote:
1. "the draw for me was..."
People come into any game for a variety of reasons. And they stay depending on the extent to which those reasons for coming were met. Basically, though, and generally speaking, people stay because the game continues to draw them in. Content has to evolve or the game fails to hold any interest. Content comes in many forms, and different players will be content with that content in many ways. Some just want to shoot 'em up. All they need are either other players in ships or NPC ships with which they can engage. Others are happy with largely pointless missions driving back and forth through mostly empty space. People who stay, though, stay, I think, because they find a connection to other players, aside from the shoot 'em up or the missions; they find a community. I think everything we (players and devs) do that will increase player "buy-in", or contribute to a players sense of ownership even where a player owns nothing, improves the game, improves the play, improves the community. The suggestion I am making will increase "buy-in", contribute to a sense of ownership, because players will be able to think to themselves and say to others, "See that ship over there, I did that." Even if, in no tangible way, no legal way, does that player own anything.
2. "10,000,000,000 different ship designs."
Let's do the math. If VO had 10,000 (ten-thousand) paying players ALL making ships, each player would need to make one MILLION ships for there to be ten BILLION ships in the VO universe. I doubt that any ship could be made in less than an hour, so in a VO universe with 10,000 players each and every player would have to spend 1,000,000 hours building...ummm...well...I'm not a mathmetician, in addition to not being a layer, but I think 1,000,000 hours is like... about 11.4 years. No! Wait! It's 114.2 years. So, obviously ten billion ships isn't going to happen.
But what if there was 1,000 ships? So what? My suggestion is not that those ships should be sold in the same pane where the VO developed ships are sold. In that case, if there were 1,000, or even 100, that market would be cluttered beyond usefulness. With 25 ships it is almost that way. How would it work? I am glad you asked. You make the designs, exhibit them on a webpage of your own, like the image Whistler shows above, and then when someone wants one you sell them a packet in game which they open in a station and, voila! they have the ship you designed. And you get the credits they paid.
Look, I have no idea how it would be done. I have been in VO for a week. I have never played in a multi-player online game like this before. Second Life is as close as I have come to VO and SL is nothing like VO. But in SL player developed content is available to other player. I can't believe it can't be done here. Also, aside from building database programs using a high-level language called 4D I have never done any programming. So, from a technical point of view I, as well, I have not a clue what I am talking about. (Yes! Dr.L you can quote me on that, too, I will write it really, r e a l l y slow so you can keep up... I d o n ' t h a v e a c l u e w h a t I a m t a l k i n g a b o u t . O K ? ?) But I know from the 4D programs I've written that programs start as written ideas and suggestions. This is just a suggestion.
As to control of IP rights: (Yes, the Idiot is about to speak! Oyez! Oyez!)
1. Already in VO Dr.L's objection is overruled. Players do contribute content through the PCC and there are no IP issues because players developing said content waive all rights to ownership.
2. Obviously, allowing players to own and control their own content isn't really a problem either. Every day, literally, and, in fact, tens of thousands of people enter Second Life, many of whom have created in-game content, and Linden Labs (Owners of Second Life) not only does not begrudge the players that content, they welcome it and encourage it by providing free, if you have an account attached to a credit card, the building tools.
No before you slay me with your wooden sword let me say a couple, maybe a few things.
1. I don't think VO should look like, or work like SL. I think VO should, and does, look and work better than SL. If you tried right now to do in SL what we do in VO (even what I do so badly), well... anyone who has tried to drive a plane in SL knows without a very fast system using a very fast connection, movement is jerky and "quircky" at best.
2. Simply getting more people into VO won't make VO better. It might actually make it worse by bogging down servers and increasing lag. (At least I think that is how lag is increased.) But without people coming in and staying the game will stagnate and fail. The devs will tire of their work without adequate feedback (both in terms of intangibles and tangibles). Players will tire of flying ships through largely empty space on seemingly mindless missions.
3. VO doesn't need to be everything to all people. In fact, it can't be. With a four-person development core it probably can never be much more than a multi-player online real-time Escape Velocity Nova look-alike. That being said, its one of those "eating crackers" things, to me, not something I will throw VO out of bed for.
4. Until a developer comes into this thread and says definitively VO isn't going to ever consider the suggestion I am making, and locks this thread as closed, I will continue to post in this thread as other players continue to make comment.
5. In your responses, civility would be nice, because even an idiot like me (with my Mensa tested 67- IQ) blanches when he is actually called one. And besides, if we are all civil, then I don't have to spend a lot of time writing a reply in which I try, unsuccessfully I am sure, to wittily make a responder out to be the fool he knows he is.
Aloha,
ojb
1. "the idiotic part of your suggestion" ... "you'll look like an idiot less often"
Fortunately, not being a lawyer, when I write about legal stuff I expect to look sort of the idiot, so having that look pointed out is not great flash of insight. However, my experience with lawyers who are worth their salt is that, until they are getting paid to review a matter, the best you can get from them is a pursed-lip, "It depends." And even after they are being paid, and even after they have studied a matter ad nauseum, mostly all you get is a definitive, "It depends." And in any case, in my experience, lawyers who are worth their salt are very civil, but lawyers who make snap assessments and act with uncivility are angry or dangerous or both. I am guessing, having read several posts in other threads written by Dr.L that he is angry. Which is too bad because anger, like fear, is a mind killer.
2. "The IP issues are created by the idiotic part of your suggestion [...] and have nothing to do with VO itself infringing on IP rights held by other games."
Oh really? Is that your considered professional opinion? I am not a lawyer, as I have said, so looking like an idiot when it comes to discussing the law is no great shakes for me. However, if Dr.L is indeed a lawyer as he claims, his statement comes as a great surprise. Even an idiot, like me, should recognize that IP issues are created EXACTLY when one product infringes on the IP rights of another product. I think your anger, Dr., has killed a bit of your mind.
3. "someone would want to know for sure that Guild could deliver 100% lawsuit free IP rights to everything in the game."
Again, even and idiot, like me, recognizes that in our litigious society there is no thing anywhere that is 100% lawsuit free. Anyone, especially a lawyer, who makes a claim that such a thing as a 100% lawsuit free product exists is more than likely wringing his hands at the possibility of a large retainer over an impending lawsuit, speaking without knowledge of a matter, or simply lying. Any prospective lender to Guild, or buyer of Guild's product(s) that would demand such a guarantee before effecting such a loan or purchase is not serious about either. And any prospective lender or buyer who knows the VO style of play, the VO premise, as it were, and would believe VO is a product, even, and especially, in its present form, 100% lawsuit free of IP issues would believe I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale. I am certain I will show, again, my idiocy, but I would suggest VO is rife with IP issues, if other companies wanted to make the claim. Either that, or, there are at least a couple companies out there infringing on IP rights over which Guild could make a claim. But I would further suggest that the devs have found a way to walk in the jungle of IP issues and not wake any beasts.
bull350 wrote:
1. "the draw for me was..."
People come into any game for a variety of reasons. And they stay depending on the extent to which those reasons for coming were met. Basically, though, and generally speaking, people stay because the game continues to draw them in. Content has to evolve or the game fails to hold any interest. Content comes in many forms, and different players will be content with that content in many ways. Some just want to shoot 'em up. All they need are either other players in ships or NPC ships with which they can engage. Others are happy with largely pointless missions driving back and forth through mostly empty space. People who stay, though, stay, I think, because they find a connection to other players, aside from the shoot 'em up or the missions; they find a community. I think everything we (players and devs) do that will increase player "buy-in", or contribute to a players sense of ownership even where a player owns nothing, improves the game, improves the play, improves the community. The suggestion I am making will increase "buy-in", contribute to a sense of ownership, because players will be able to think to themselves and say to others, "See that ship over there, I did that." Even if, in no tangible way, no legal way, does that player own anything.
2. "10,000,000,000 different ship designs."
Let's do the math. If VO had 10,000 (ten-thousand) paying players ALL making ships, each player would need to make one MILLION ships for there to be ten BILLION ships in the VO universe. I doubt that any ship could be made in less than an hour, so in a VO universe with 10,000 players each and every player would have to spend 1,000,000 hours building...ummm...well...I'm not a mathmetician, in addition to not being a layer, but I think 1,000,000 hours is like... about 11.4 years. No! Wait! It's 114.2 years. So, obviously ten billion ships isn't going to happen.
But what if there was 1,000 ships? So what? My suggestion is not that those ships should be sold in the same pane where the VO developed ships are sold. In that case, if there were 1,000, or even 100, that market would be cluttered beyond usefulness. With 25 ships it is almost that way. How would it work? I am glad you asked. You make the designs, exhibit them on a webpage of your own, like the image Whistler shows above, and then when someone wants one you sell them a packet in game which they open in a station and, voila! they have the ship you designed. And you get the credits they paid.
Look, I have no idea how it would be done. I have been in VO for a week. I have never played in a multi-player online game like this before. Second Life is as close as I have come to VO and SL is nothing like VO. But in SL player developed content is available to other player. I can't believe it can't be done here. Also, aside from building database programs using a high-level language called 4D I have never done any programming. So, from a technical point of view I, as well, I have not a clue what I am talking about. (Yes! Dr.L you can quote me on that, too, I will write it really, r e a l l y slow so you can keep up... I d o n ' t h a v e a c l u e w h a t I a m t a l k i n g a b o u t . O K ? ?) But I know from the 4D programs I've written that programs start as written ideas and suggestions. This is just a suggestion.
As to control of IP rights: (Yes, the Idiot is about to speak! Oyez! Oyez!)
1. Already in VO Dr.L's objection is overruled. Players do contribute content through the PCC and there are no IP issues because players developing said content waive all rights to ownership.
2. Obviously, allowing players to own and control their own content isn't really a problem either. Every day, literally, and, in fact, tens of thousands of people enter Second Life, many of whom have created in-game content, and Linden Labs (Owners of Second Life) not only does not begrudge the players that content, they welcome it and encourage it by providing free, if you have an account attached to a credit card, the building tools.
No before you slay me with your wooden sword let me say a couple, maybe a few things.
1. I don't think VO should look like, or work like SL. I think VO should, and does, look and work better than SL. If you tried right now to do in SL what we do in VO (even what I do so badly), well... anyone who has tried to drive a plane in SL knows without a very fast system using a very fast connection, movement is jerky and "quircky" at best.
2. Simply getting more people into VO won't make VO better. It might actually make it worse by bogging down servers and increasing lag. (At least I think that is how lag is increased.) But without people coming in and staying the game will stagnate and fail. The devs will tire of their work without adequate feedback (both in terms of intangibles and tangibles). Players will tire of flying ships through largely empty space on seemingly mindless missions.
3. VO doesn't need to be everything to all people. In fact, it can't be. With a four-person development core it probably can never be much more than a multi-player online real-time Escape Velocity Nova look-alike. That being said, its one of those "eating crackers" things, to me, not something I will throw VO out of bed for.
4. Until a developer comes into this thread and says definitively VO isn't going to ever consider the suggestion I am making, and locks this thread as closed, I will continue to post in this thread as other players continue to make comment.
5. In your responses, civility would be nice, because even an idiot like me (with my Mensa tested 67- IQ) blanches when he is actually called one. And besides, if we are all civil, then I don't have to spend a lot of time writing a reply in which I try, unsuccessfully I am sure, to wittily make a responder out to be the fool he knows he is.
Aloha,
ojb
There's a lot of stupidity in that mess. For example, IP issues can be created for VO by VO infringing on the IP rights held by other games, but that's obviously not the only way IP issues can be created for VO--and as I pointed out, that's not the problem with your suggestion. As for "100% lawsuit free" being taken literally, you do seem to like knocking down straw men.
Either way, see the following (Dev comments): http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/19965#249180
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/19983#249324
Incarnate:
"Additionally, it makes it clear to prospective investors that yes, we own our own intellectual property. If you build a product around a lot of stuff you don't own, that can be rather scary to outside investors."
Look, blowjobbob, your idea is objectionable because it presents IP hazards to GS, because it doesn't mesh with the Devs' plan for ship development and the realities of ship design meshes, and (of course) because it's just plain lame. Take it, leave it, whatever you like.
Finally, sorry about your room temperature IQ; it's sad that people get that shafted in the genetic lottery, it really is. And Mensa members shouldn't use you as a lab rat just because you're about a hundred IQ points below them. So don't let them do that you ya. Hell, it's so degrading that it almost makes me want to cancel my membership as an act of protest.
Either way, see the following (Dev comments): http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/19965#249180
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/19983#249324
Incarnate:
"Additionally, it makes it clear to prospective investors that yes, we own our own intellectual property. If you build a product around a lot of stuff you don't own, that can be rather scary to outside investors."
Look, blowjobbob, your idea is objectionable because it presents IP hazards to GS, because it doesn't mesh with the Devs' plan for ship development and the realities of ship design meshes, and (of course) because it's just plain lame. Take it, leave it, whatever you like.
Finally, sorry about your room temperature IQ; it's sad that people get that shafted in the genetic lottery, it really is. And Mensa members shouldn't use you as a lab rat just because you're about a hundred IQ points below them. So don't let them do that you ya. Hell, it's so degrading that it almost makes me want to cancel my membership as an act of protest.
Sorry oddjobbob I wrote my last comment assuming you had played other "twitch" based games before. The other discussion aside, what you are suggesting is made tougher by this fact:
In "twitch" based games, the object you are attempting to "hit" uses a thing called a "hit box". That hit box must exist in the same place and time as the "projectile" being fired at it. You can also break down the hit box to cause more or less damage based on where it hit in the box.
Now keeping this in mind, imagine even 60 people created two ships each of differing designs. That's 120 Hit boxes that have to be adjusted for balance and to be sure that they register hits properly. A lot of work to say the least. Go look at some first person shooter games and you'll notice that the things you shoot at are a lot of times the same size and often shape.
So, from this stand point you can see that this would be too difficult to do at this juncture of the game. Also, why is this a big deal as you very seldom sit around and stare at your ship anyway?
Also, that number was completely random. I didn't really think that there would end up being that many designs. Come on.
If you are really serious about designing a ship, draw out the model and submit it. Who knows the devs may integrate it.
In "twitch" based games, the object you are attempting to "hit" uses a thing called a "hit box". That hit box must exist in the same place and time as the "projectile" being fired at it. You can also break down the hit box to cause more or less damage based on where it hit in the box.
Now keeping this in mind, imagine even 60 people created two ships each of differing designs. That's 120 Hit boxes that have to be adjusted for balance and to be sure that they register hits properly. A lot of work to say the least. Go look at some first person shooter games and you'll notice that the things you shoot at are a lot of times the same size and often shape.
So, from this stand point you can see that this would be too difficult to do at this juncture of the game. Also, why is this a big deal as you very seldom sit around and stare at your ship anyway?
Also, that number was completely random. I didn't really think that there would end up being that many designs. Come on.
If you are really serious about designing a ship, draw out the model and submit it. Who knows the devs may integrate it.
Dr.L wrote:
Well he mainly wrote one long ad hominum attack, which doesn't need a response. I guess since he doesn't state an objection on point or of substance he has no objection. Therefore, since his only objection is personal, he must agree with the merits of the suggestion. Thanks Doc for your vote of approval.
But, I would suggest that in the future if Dr.L doesn't want his strawmen knocked over he should not leave them standing about.
I did, however, read the link included in his response. I see nothing in Incarnate's post that precludes anything I have suggested. In fact, I think taken as a whole, the thread supports my suggestion that player developed content can be used in VO without, necessarily, raising any IP issues.
bull350 wrote:
1. "In 'twitch' based games, the object you are attempting to 'hit' uses a thing called a 'hit box'. That hit box must exist in the same place and time as the 'projectile' being fired at it."[...]"imagine even 60 people created two ships each of differing designs. That's 120 Hit boxes that have to be adjusted for balance and to be sure that they register hits properly. "
Thanks bull350 for explaining that. In my suggestion I imagine the ships' chassises that would be included in the SDK ("Ship Development Kit") would have the "hit box" already sized and placed. The "chassis" would be a bubble, holding the hitbox (I am sort of imagining the "hitbox" you described is three-dimensional, a box, say). In some cases the bubble would be more spherical, in other cases it would be more conical, in some cases it would be more like a football. The player designs would have to fit, entirely, within the bubble. Take, for instance, the warthog. Imagine a bubble in which that ship could fit. That bubble/chassis would have the same mass, cargo room, maximum speed, turning rate, hotbox location as the warthog. In addition to the chassis, the SDK includes a set of fundamental shapes: cubes, tubes, spheres, pyramids, and others if needed. These shapes could be modified by the designer using tools in the SDK. Stretch a cube and you have a rectangular box. Reduce the top of a tube to a point and you have a cone. Other modifiers would create other three-deminsional shapes. The shapes could then be textures, i.e. painted. The shapes would be assembled to fit within the bubble, entirely. At that point it is a ship that has all the flying characteristics of a warthog. It would show up on radar as a warthog. On the Configure Ship pane it would look like a warthog. But it wouldn't look like a warthog to anyone who sees you flying through the VO-iverse.
I don't know enough about these programs to guess how the ship created out-game would be transfered in-game, but that can't be too hard. And in the alternative they could be created in game. The ships I create would become part of my cargo stored in a station. If I am very prolific I would have to rent storage space.
If someone sees a ship I have built and likes it they can buy a copy from me. I know at the present such player-to-player ship transfers can't be done. So you're exactly right. The game isn't ready for what I am suggesting. That doesn't mean, however, that at sometime in the future, it won't be ready.
2. "Why is this a big deal as you very seldom sit around and stare at your ship anyway?"
Except when you are configuring your ship I don't think you can look at your ship can you? But when you're flying other people see you. And instead of seeing you in a standard warthog that looks like everyone else's (except maybe for the color) they see you in a very cool design, that you made. This builds what I have called, "buy-in," a sense of ownership in the game. It will also open the game up to many potential players whose game skills are low, but whose creative skills are high.
3. "Go look at some first person shooter games"
Can you recommend one? Didn't really know until your suggestion that there are things like this.
4. "that number was completely random"
I sort of figured the number you chose was hyperbole. But some might become concerned that if players begin to design ships the "ship buying pane" could become even more difficult to sort through than it already is. (Because of the wiki link you provided elsewhere I find it far less confusing now, "thanks".) But from my description above it is clear that on a fundamental level no new ships would exist other than those envisioned by the game devs. In time I imagine there might be thousands of ship designed. If you go into Second Life, where player content is encouraged, even essential to the play, you might find there have been tens of thousands of items of a certain type. But at any given time only a small fraction of them are in use. Residents in SL come and go. And when they go their stuff goes with them. Resident builders learn new ways to make things that improve the look, or simplify the look, so the older items eventually go away. And the tools used to build change too. An item that once took several shapes might now take a few. In SL items that require fewer shapes and have the same look and functionality are generally more highly prized than "shape-heavy" items. The same would likely be true in an SDK in VO. Ships couldn't be made of an unlimited number of shapes.
5. "If you are really serious about designing a ship, draw out the model and submit it."
As much as I might wish I could, I really don't have the creative skill to do this. But i know there are people out there who do, and who would love to put those skills to work in a game like this.
Aloha,
ojb
Well he mainly wrote one long ad hominum attack, which doesn't need a response. I guess since he doesn't state an objection on point or of substance he has no objection. Therefore, since his only objection is personal, he must agree with the merits of the suggestion. Thanks Doc for your vote of approval.
But, I would suggest that in the future if Dr.L doesn't want his strawmen knocked over he should not leave them standing about.
I did, however, read the link included in his response. I see nothing in Incarnate's post that precludes anything I have suggested. In fact, I think taken as a whole, the thread supports my suggestion that player developed content can be used in VO without, necessarily, raising any IP issues.
bull350 wrote:
1. "In 'twitch' based games, the object you are attempting to 'hit' uses a thing called a 'hit box'. That hit box must exist in the same place and time as the 'projectile' being fired at it."[...]"imagine even 60 people created two ships each of differing designs. That's 120 Hit boxes that have to be adjusted for balance and to be sure that they register hits properly. "
Thanks bull350 for explaining that. In my suggestion I imagine the ships' chassises that would be included in the SDK ("Ship Development Kit") would have the "hit box" already sized and placed. The "chassis" would be a bubble, holding the hitbox (I am sort of imagining the "hitbox" you described is three-dimensional, a box, say). In some cases the bubble would be more spherical, in other cases it would be more conical, in some cases it would be more like a football. The player designs would have to fit, entirely, within the bubble. Take, for instance, the warthog. Imagine a bubble in which that ship could fit. That bubble/chassis would have the same mass, cargo room, maximum speed, turning rate, hotbox location as the warthog. In addition to the chassis, the SDK includes a set of fundamental shapes: cubes, tubes, spheres, pyramids, and others if needed. These shapes could be modified by the designer using tools in the SDK. Stretch a cube and you have a rectangular box. Reduce the top of a tube to a point and you have a cone. Other modifiers would create other three-deminsional shapes. The shapes could then be textures, i.e. painted. The shapes would be assembled to fit within the bubble, entirely. At that point it is a ship that has all the flying characteristics of a warthog. It would show up on radar as a warthog. On the Configure Ship pane it would look like a warthog. But it wouldn't look like a warthog to anyone who sees you flying through the VO-iverse.
I don't know enough about these programs to guess how the ship created out-game would be transfered in-game, but that can't be too hard. And in the alternative they could be created in game. The ships I create would become part of my cargo stored in a station. If I am very prolific I would have to rent storage space.
If someone sees a ship I have built and likes it they can buy a copy from me. I know at the present such player-to-player ship transfers can't be done. So you're exactly right. The game isn't ready for what I am suggesting. That doesn't mean, however, that at sometime in the future, it won't be ready.
2. "Why is this a big deal as you very seldom sit around and stare at your ship anyway?"
Except when you are configuring your ship I don't think you can look at your ship can you? But when you're flying other people see you. And instead of seeing you in a standard warthog that looks like everyone else's (except maybe for the color) they see you in a very cool design, that you made. This builds what I have called, "buy-in," a sense of ownership in the game. It will also open the game up to many potential players whose game skills are low, but whose creative skills are high.
3. "Go look at some first person shooter games"
Can you recommend one? Didn't really know until your suggestion that there are things like this.
4. "that number was completely random"
I sort of figured the number you chose was hyperbole. But some might become concerned that if players begin to design ships the "ship buying pane" could become even more difficult to sort through than it already is. (Because of the wiki link you provided elsewhere I find it far less confusing now, "thanks".) But from my description above it is clear that on a fundamental level no new ships would exist other than those envisioned by the game devs. In time I imagine there might be thousands of ship designed. If you go into Second Life, where player content is encouraged, even essential to the play, you might find there have been tens of thousands of items of a certain type. But at any given time only a small fraction of them are in use. Residents in SL come and go. And when they go their stuff goes with them. Resident builders learn new ways to make things that improve the look, or simplify the look, so the older items eventually go away. And the tools used to build change too. An item that once took several shapes might now take a few. In SL items that require fewer shapes and have the same look and functionality are generally more highly prized than "shape-heavy" items. The same would likely be true in an SDK in VO. Ships couldn't be made of an unlimited number of shapes.
5. "If you are really serious about designing a ship, draw out the model and submit it."
As much as I might wish I could, I really don't have the creative skill to do this. But i know there are people out there who do, and who would love to put those skills to work in a game like this.
Aloha,
ojb
On further reflection, I'd like to welcome our newest troll, blowjobbob, to the boards. This level of detailed, inquisitive, "that's fascinating, please tell me more!" ignorance can only be deliberate. I especially like the "I'm a 52 year old online gamer from Hawaii who plays SecondLife and doesn't know what a FPS game is" angle.
Gee whiz Dr.L thanks for the welcome. Don't know where you get your information. But, I wouldn't rely on the source if you play the ponies.
Aloha,
ojb
Aloha,
ojb
I think we're done here.
[locked]
[locked]