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Hi - I just started playing, but I thought it might be helpful to get a new person's perspective on some things. First, the game mechanics are really incredible. Flying feels smooth and switching into Physics Mode is terrific. Great to have fire-fights where it really feels like zero-gravity, and the heavy ships really do feel cumbersome without being annoying. So the physics is awesome. But I really am posting to say my peace about a couple things...
1) I put this one on top because it bothers me so much. Need to be able to repair and rearm your ship under the "Ship" menu. It seems crazy I need to go to the "Welcome" menu to do it. Rest of the comments are in order of appearance.
2) Story. There is a little bit of backstory when one creates a character, but not much else shown either in the mission or throughout the game. I suppose there is a bit on the station "Welcome" menu, but it seemed the same as the character creation screen. Meanwhile, there are very long and hard to digest chapters of backstory on the website, in the form of a timeline. Is one really expected to read a 12 chapter timeline? Seems to be no middle ground -- either get a paragraph of background or sit down over the weekend and read the online version. Please pull this information into the mission descriptions and gameplay.
3) Tutorial. The tutorial is good and the early missions are good, too, but there are some problems. The tutorial missions never go away, and they get mixed up with the other newbie missions. Again, an opportunity to present the rich backstory is missed here. Encouraging the new player to leave the original starter-station, and set their home elsewhere might help clarify, by making the tutorials unavailable at the new station. (edit: Also, add what are maximum weapon ranges and why the auto-target changes from Red to Yellow. I still do not know.)
4) Station menus are too deep. Seems like there are four or five levels of menus in the stations. You would not accept that in a from a word processor, so why make software built for fun have a frustrating interface? Also, like I mentioned in #1, there are some counter-intuitive menu items.
5) Setting home. Not sure what it represents, in game-terms, when a ship blows up and one comes back. Do you eject in an escape pod? Do you have a clone waiting for you? Either way, one should be given the option to start at either the closest friendly station, or back a designated home station.
6) Early gameplay. Once the tutorials are done, the player is left to fend for themselves. As mentioned before, it would be better to encourage them to go to another station for more hand-holding.
For those wanting to go into combat missions, it is not clear that additional training missions are required. One would think just participating in combat would raise the combat license. Once the combat training is identified to increase the combat license, one must grind through three levels of licenses in these two missions (basic and advanced). Even missions called "Kill all the bots" do not increase combat licenses. Lastly, the advanced mission gets really hard when the list of acceptable bots is limited to enforcers and assault bots. There is a big difference between the collectors that sit there like cows and the falachette wielding enforcers who use constant thrust to give chase. So, in short, these early missions could be cleaned up a bit and given some story line if they are the main focus of gameplay for three license levels.
7) Missions sometimes require you to depart the station and return to complete. For example, the Scrap Metal mission will not let you complete the mission, without first leaving, even if you have the items. Also, the mission sometimes will not check the Station Cargo area for the requirements.
8) In Space, No One Can Hear You Say, "Uh, hello?..."
After the introduction, a player might not see anyone else for the remainder of their demo-time. Yes, there is a IRC-style chat scroll always at the top of the screen, but the subjects are all over the place and it mostly adds to the confusion. Getting involved with other players comes too late in the gameplay. Teaming up with other players for border patrol or hive queen hunting is FUN, so why hide that great cooperative gameplay away?
9) The damn "t" key. It must have been some terrific oversight that allowed a key that will seize all gameplay to be placed immediately next to a key required for combat. All the time, you see in the chat "rrrrrrrwwwwwwwdddddddd", and you know someone else met with "death by chatbox".
10) Polish. There are so many good things with Vendetta Online, and it would really shine much more brightly with some more polish. The first couple hours after the tutorial are the most important for getting new players, so they should be brimming with awesomeness. Focus the gameplay more on the fun aspects and try to limit the less fun parts.
11) Leave them wanting more. At the end of the trial period, one has either spent five hours killing identical bots, collecting ore, or moving cargo from one station to another. Hopefully a bit of all three. But one does not sign up for a subscription to play a single-player game. I have played a short time, but it was only through talking with other players in chat that I discovered there was more to the game. I can see why anyone else, not taking the time to ask, would simply not sign up. They are not going to subscribe for a single-player game.
There is tons of potential here, for Vendetta Online, and I hope my naive and initial thoughts will help a little. I know it stinks to have a new person slam your favorite game, so I just wanted to say that I say it all with the best intentions. I really hope this game does improve and attracts lots of new players. (edit: I originally said "attacks lots of new players." oops! My pirate flag is showing.)
1) I put this one on top because it bothers me so much. Need to be able to repair and rearm your ship under the "Ship" menu. It seems crazy I need to go to the "Welcome" menu to do it. Rest of the comments are in order of appearance.
2) Story. There is a little bit of backstory when one creates a character, but not much else shown either in the mission or throughout the game. I suppose there is a bit on the station "Welcome" menu, but it seemed the same as the character creation screen. Meanwhile, there are very long and hard to digest chapters of backstory on the website, in the form of a timeline. Is one really expected to read a 12 chapter timeline? Seems to be no middle ground -- either get a paragraph of background or sit down over the weekend and read the online version. Please pull this information into the mission descriptions and gameplay.
3) Tutorial. The tutorial is good and the early missions are good, too, but there are some problems. The tutorial missions never go away, and they get mixed up with the other newbie missions. Again, an opportunity to present the rich backstory is missed here. Encouraging the new player to leave the original starter-station, and set their home elsewhere might help clarify, by making the tutorials unavailable at the new station. (edit: Also, add what are maximum weapon ranges and why the auto-target changes from Red to Yellow. I still do not know.)
4) Station menus are too deep. Seems like there are four or five levels of menus in the stations. You would not accept that in a from a word processor, so why make software built for fun have a frustrating interface? Also, like I mentioned in #1, there are some counter-intuitive menu items.
5) Setting home. Not sure what it represents, in game-terms, when a ship blows up and one comes back. Do you eject in an escape pod? Do you have a clone waiting for you? Either way, one should be given the option to start at either the closest friendly station, or back a designated home station.
6) Early gameplay. Once the tutorials are done, the player is left to fend for themselves. As mentioned before, it would be better to encourage them to go to another station for more hand-holding.
For those wanting to go into combat missions, it is not clear that additional training missions are required. One would think just participating in combat would raise the combat license. Once the combat training is identified to increase the combat license, one must grind through three levels of licenses in these two missions (basic and advanced). Even missions called "Kill all the bots" do not increase combat licenses. Lastly, the advanced mission gets really hard when the list of acceptable bots is limited to enforcers and assault bots. There is a big difference between the collectors that sit there like cows and the falachette wielding enforcers who use constant thrust to give chase. So, in short, these early missions could be cleaned up a bit and given some story line if they are the main focus of gameplay for three license levels.
7) Missions sometimes require you to depart the station and return to complete. For example, the Scrap Metal mission will not let you complete the mission, without first leaving, even if you have the items. Also, the mission sometimes will not check the Station Cargo area for the requirements.
8) In Space, No One Can Hear You Say, "Uh, hello?..."
After the introduction, a player might not see anyone else for the remainder of their demo-time. Yes, there is a IRC-style chat scroll always at the top of the screen, but the subjects are all over the place and it mostly adds to the confusion. Getting involved with other players comes too late in the gameplay. Teaming up with other players for border patrol or hive queen hunting is FUN, so why hide that great cooperative gameplay away?
9) The damn "t" key. It must have been some terrific oversight that allowed a key that will seize all gameplay to be placed immediately next to a key required for combat. All the time, you see in the chat "rrrrrrrwwwwwwwdddddddd", and you know someone else met with "death by chatbox".
10) Polish. There are so many good things with Vendetta Online, and it would really shine much more brightly with some more polish. The first couple hours after the tutorial are the most important for getting new players, so they should be brimming with awesomeness. Focus the gameplay more on the fun aspects and try to limit the less fun parts.
11) Leave them wanting more. At the end of the trial period, one has either spent five hours killing identical bots, collecting ore, or moving cargo from one station to another. Hopefully a bit of all three. But one does not sign up for a subscription to play a single-player game. I have played a short time, but it was only through talking with other players in chat that I discovered there was more to the game. I can see why anyone else, not taking the time to ask, would simply not sign up. They are not going to subscribe for a single-player game.
There is tons of potential here, for Vendetta Online, and I hope my naive and initial thoughts will help a little. I know it stinks to have a new person slam your favorite game, so I just wanted to say that I say it all with the best intentions. I really hope this game does improve and attracts lots of new players. (edit: I originally said "attacks lots of new players." oops! My pirate flag is showing.)
And you haven't even been around for two weeks. Wait till you find out there isn't much to do or a reason to do it...
All of these are things that need to be done. The developers are struggling to get priorities into place. They've been working on infrastructure for the past two years (the mission editor is pretty nifty, new bot mechanics and such)
As millions of people are about to tell you; there are only four people working on the game with the occasional intern; They don't have the manpower to do everything at once.
As millions of people are about to tell you; there are only four people working on the game with the occasional intern; They don't have the manpower to do everything at once.
If you are too lazy to read the whole backstory, read the condensed version:
Linky
Linky
Not all of them are, BG.
Either way, one should be given the option to start at either the closest friendly station
DING! Wrong answer. It's already hard enough to make people disappear, regardless of how incompetent they are and how easily they die.
Either way, one should be given the option to start at either the closest friendly station
DING! Wrong answer. It's already hard enough to make people disappear, regardless of how incompetent they are and how easily they die.
I think this was a very worthy post, and I agree with everything brought up.
>> DING! Wrong answer. It's already hard enough to make people disappear, regardless of how incompetent they are and how easily they die.
You know, I take that back, about being able to respawn at a nearby station. I really have no right to comment on the game mechanics, because I have experienced so little. I wanted only to talk about my experiences with the user interface, as a newbie. My concern is really that I do not understand the interface of home stations and respawning, in regards to the game and character story.
Also, just another quick thing, I do think that generally V.O. has lots of polish. The game is full of nice touches, on the stations, with the great music, and the animations. It is just the new user process, excluding the initial tutorial, that bothered me. Thanks for reading through what turned out to be a long posting.
You know, I take that back, about being able to respawn at a nearby station. I really have no right to comment on the game mechanics, because I have experienced so little. I wanted only to talk about my experiences with the user interface, as a newbie. My concern is really that I do not understand the interface of home stations and respawning, in regards to the game and character story.
Also, just another quick thing, I do think that generally V.O. has lots of polish. The game is full of nice touches, on the stations, with the great music, and the animations. It is just the new user process, excluding the initial tutorial, that bothered me. Thanks for reading through what turned out to be a long posting.
tuxdelux,
Can you please share with us what you ment by #4? (Station menus are too deep.) The level of detail in the menu is just incredible plus it being updated to add new things and fix other things.
The menu is in 3 base areas and each area has sub tabs by group, also each group can/may have it's own sub tab. With the amount of detail present I see no other way of doing that.
Ed
Can you please share with us what you ment by #4? (Station menus are too deep.) The level of detail in the menu is just incredible plus it being updated to add new things and fix other things.
The menu is in 3 base areas and each area has sub tabs by group, also each group can/may have it's own sub tab. With the amount of detail present I see no other way of doing that.
Ed
It is helpful to get the newbish perspective on the interface. You have my respect for backing down from the game mechanics comments.
I do not understand the interface of home stations and respawning, in regards to the game and character story
No worries. Aside from some nanite-fetish whackos, nobody else here claims to know how it's really supposed to work either.
No worries. Aside from some nanite-fetish whackos, nobody else here claims to know how it's really supposed to work either.
Ed: So, a shallow menu would be one with all the functions available on one screen. A deep menu is one where you have to do a lot of clicks to get to an option. Say you want to change your weapon groups: Ship -> Manage -> Configure -> Groups. That's a four-deep menu.
There are menu tabs on the top, menu buttons on the right, sub-menus in the top-right, then menu functions all over the screen. It was all pretty confusing. There's not a lot going on in the station: Got an active ship and a station's inventory. No need for so many menus. One fix that immediately jumps out at me is there is two (not counting PDA) station menu choices at the top, then three menu items for each on the right. Why not make six on the right, instead? Then put PDA as part of that new menu. That eliminates one level of menu depth right there. Very few features should be buried more than two-menu deep. Above example should be Manage Ships -> Groups.
Look at your web browser and other applications. They set up the menus 7x7 or so, 7 menus with 7 menu items. If you can't do what you need to do in 49 selections, then you start nesting the lesser used items. The station menu does not have nearly 49 options, but it has lots more depth. Common result from years of adding bits here and there. Just needs to get a quick touch up.
There are menu tabs on the top, menu buttons on the right, sub-menus in the top-right, then menu functions all over the screen. It was all pretty confusing. There's not a lot going on in the station: Got an active ship and a station's inventory. No need for so many menus. One fix that immediately jumps out at me is there is two (not counting PDA) station menu choices at the top, then three menu items for each on the right. Why not make six on the right, instead? Then put PDA as part of that new menu. That eliminates one level of menu depth right there. Very few features should be buried more than two-menu deep. Above example should be Manage Ships -> Groups.
Look at your web browser and other applications. They set up the menus 7x7 or so, 7 menus with 7 menu items. If you can't do what you need to do in 49 selections, then you start nesting the lesser used items. The station menu does not have nearly 49 options, but it has lots more depth. Common result from years of adding bits here and there. Just needs to get a quick touch up.
tux: Part of the problem is that our interface is based around an 800x600 default resolution limit, which makes display area usage challenging in some cases.
The station could definitely be restructured more elegantly. We added drag-and-drop support not too long ago, with an eye towards doing this, but have not yet looked at redesigning the whole thing. It's simpler, in some respects, for us to wait until we reach a milestone of adding new features that will impact the menu, before redesigning the menu to more elegantly integrate them.
Anyway, I agree with what you're saying. We've redesigned the interface two previous times over the last 6 years, to try and improve layout including the various added features (with varying degrees of success), and need to do so again.
The station could definitely be restructured more elegantly. We added drag-and-drop support not too long ago, with an eye towards doing this, but have not yet looked at redesigning the whole thing. It's simpler, in some respects, for us to wait until we reach a milestone of adding new features that will impact the menu, before redesigning the menu to more elegantly integrate them.
Anyway, I agree with what you're saying. We've redesigned the interface two previous times over the last 6 years, to try and improve layout including the various added features (with varying degrees of success), and need to do so again.
Good comments, tux.
1) Need to be able to repair and rearm your ship under the "Ship" menu.
Yep. This one has bothered me since the beginning. Doesn't make a damn bit of sense, except that it's convenient to have the button on the first screen you come to when docking, so you can dock, click 2 buttons real quick-like, then go back out and cause more carnage.
2) Story. There is a little bit of backstory when one creates a character, but not much else shown either in the mission or throughout the game.
Yep. Having more descriptive and story-building missions would be awesome. Especially if the stories caused game-wide triggers and stuff. For example, if enough players won at a "Kill the Sedina Hive" mission, maybe the hive would get wise and move to Odia. Or Sol II.
3) The tutorial missions never go away, and they get mixed up with the other newbie missions.Yeah, I would like to see a "NPC mentor" help all newbie players, as if you were a nugget pilot and the old vet had been assigned to help you out. Maybe we can write something like that in the PCC. (Player Contribution Corps)
4) Station menus are too deep. Seems like there are four or five levels of menus in the stations, and there are some counter-intuitive menu items.
Yeah, interface design is a big issue of mine, and the VO interface, believe it or not, HAS made great strides from where it was. It's still not super-duper great. Needs to go through some serious usability testing.
5) Setting home. Not sure what it represents, in game-terms, when a ship blows up and one comes back. Do you eject in an escape pod? Do you have a clone waiting for you?
Ooooooooh YAH we've been over this lots, and the answer is: Even the devs have no idea. I personally favor a kind of "quantum-entanglement" remote control system, where you never REALLY leave the station, and your consciousness is transferred from station to station if you make it somewhere else and can "teleport" there.
6) Once the tutorials are done, the player is left to fend for themselves.
Yep, we need more missions that continue the storylines. Content is king. Unfortunately, right now VO is a peasant when it comes to content. Again, the PCC could write some missions that expand storylines in a certain fashion.
7) Yeah we know the scrap metal mission is FUBAR. Don't do it. In fact, several missions are currently FUBAR but I'll leave it to a more experienced person to tell you which ones and why.
8) After the introduction, a player might not see anyone else for the remainder of their demo-time.
Yeah there should be missions that group you with other players to accomplish a mission set. This will probably take care of itself when there are more players...
9) The damn "t" key. It must have been some terrific oversight that allowed a key that will seize all gameplay to be placed immediately next to a key required for combat.
So change it - all keys are configure-able. Hit ESC when in space or click options on bottom right in a station. Options menu.
10) Polish.
Yeah. VO needs lots more Polish. (And maybe some Czech? HA!)
11) One does not sign up for a subscription to play a single-player game.
Yeah no duh. For new players, it's been suggested REPEATEDLY that they be confined to one system and not be able to spread out into the diffuse world until maybe level 3 or so. There's a lot of good arguments pro and con on this topic throughout the forums.
1) Need to be able to repair and rearm your ship under the "Ship" menu.
Yep. This one has bothered me since the beginning. Doesn't make a damn bit of sense, except that it's convenient to have the button on the first screen you come to when docking, so you can dock, click 2 buttons real quick-like, then go back out and cause more carnage.
2) Story. There is a little bit of backstory when one creates a character, but not much else shown either in the mission or throughout the game.
Yep. Having more descriptive and story-building missions would be awesome. Especially if the stories caused game-wide triggers and stuff. For example, if enough players won at a "Kill the Sedina Hive" mission, maybe the hive would get wise and move to Odia. Or Sol II.
3) The tutorial missions never go away, and they get mixed up with the other newbie missions.Yeah, I would like to see a "NPC mentor" help all newbie players, as if you were a nugget pilot and the old vet had been assigned to help you out. Maybe we can write something like that in the PCC. (Player Contribution Corps)
4) Station menus are too deep. Seems like there are four or five levels of menus in the stations, and there are some counter-intuitive menu items.
Yeah, interface design is a big issue of mine, and the VO interface, believe it or not, HAS made great strides from where it was. It's still not super-duper great. Needs to go through some serious usability testing.
5) Setting home. Not sure what it represents, in game-terms, when a ship blows up and one comes back. Do you eject in an escape pod? Do you have a clone waiting for you?
Ooooooooh YAH we've been over this lots, and the answer is: Even the devs have no idea. I personally favor a kind of "quantum-entanglement" remote control system, where you never REALLY leave the station, and your consciousness is transferred from station to station if you make it somewhere else and can "teleport" there.
6) Once the tutorials are done, the player is left to fend for themselves.
Yep, we need more missions that continue the storylines. Content is king. Unfortunately, right now VO is a peasant when it comes to content. Again, the PCC could write some missions that expand storylines in a certain fashion.
7) Yeah we know the scrap metal mission is FUBAR. Don't do it. In fact, several missions are currently FUBAR but I'll leave it to a more experienced person to tell you which ones and why.
8) After the introduction, a player might not see anyone else for the remainder of their demo-time.
Yeah there should be missions that group you with other players to accomplish a mission set. This will probably take care of itself when there are more players...
9) The damn "t" key. It must have been some terrific oversight that allowed a key that will seize all gameplay to be placed immediately next to a key required for combat.
So change it - all keys are configure-able. Hit ESC when in space or click options on bottom right in a station. Options menu.
10) Polish.
Yeah. VO needs lots more Polish. (And maybe some Czech? HA!)
11) One does not sign up for a subscription to play a single-player game.
Yeah no duh. For new players, it's been suggested REPEATEDLY that they be confined to one system and not be able to spread out into the diffuse world until maybe level 3 or so. There's a lot of good arguments pro and con on this topic throughout the forums.
LeberMac: Thank you for your agreement, for the most part. One thing I wanted to clarify, however, is that I think it is too easy to say, on #11, there needs to be more players. What I meant to say was a new player should feel a place of belonging among the whole. I see a mentoring system was attempted. My suggestion is give incentives for guilds to recruit new players. Also, add backstory to early missions to give a sense of direction where a new player might take their career, or at least what is happening in the universe. (Why was the new pilot summoned to the station? Why is the government paying for training and combat practice? In the future, what do they hope to gain from this new pilot?) You have already made the illusion of flying in outer space, just add the space-faring society in to the mix.
One additional follow-up. I did finally see that missions like "Kill all the bots." were supplying Combat Points, by checking the Achievement Logs tab. Strange that sometimes the bonus is displayed to the screen and sometimes not. Also, I found the ship repair under the ship menu, too. Was on the left side of the screen while I was looking at the options to the right. Both these oversights are probably a good indication this information needs to illuminated.
Thanks again for considering my thoughts. Hope you will simply take these as a single data point, of a new user's experience. Maybe run a couple other new people through the intro and see what they have to say, too. :-)
One additional follow-up. I did finally see that missions like "Kill all the bots." were supplying Combat Points, by checking the Achievement Logs tab. Strange that sometimes the bonus is displayed to the screen and sometimes not. Also, I found the ship repair under the ship menu, too. Was on the left side of the screen while I was looking at the options to the right. Both these oversights are probably a good indication this information needs to illuminated.
Thanks again for considering my thoughts. Hope you will simply take these as a single data point, of a new user's experience. Maybe run a couple other new people through the intro and see what they have to say, too. :-)
Some of these may need to be broken out into unique threads. specifically 1, 2 and 4.
1) repair/rearm ship.
In ship menu, manage ship - left lower corner, refill weapons/ammo/etc..
4) station menus to deep.
So what layout WOULD make the interface super? Currently:
PDA tab has 19 subtabs total
Ship tab has 8 subtabs
Commerce tab has 5 subtabs.
Only solution I can come up with is remove teh PDA tabs, have 8 menu items or tabs at the top and under each one have the related sub tabs.
1) repair/rearm ship.
In ship menu, manage ship - left lower corner, refill weapons/ammo/etc..
4) station menus to deep.
So what layout WOULD make the interface super? Currently:
PDA tab has 19 subtabs total
Ship tab has 8 subtabs
Commerce tab has 5 subtabs.
Only solution I can come up with is remove teh PDA tabs, have 8 menu items or tabs at the top and under each one have the related sub tabs.
Sure, the PDA menu is going to be a separate menu tree, since it can also be accessed independent of the station menu. But, the commerce and ship menus can be simplified and merged. Even with 800x600 pixels, there should be plenty of space. Menu design ideas came from the 80 characters-wide terminal days.
the interface is kinda crappy and hard to find stuff
I miss the simple green menu system
I still have to look around to find my cargo hold or to set up my ship and I've been here for years!
I miss the simple green menu system
I still have to look around to find my cargo hold or to set up my ship and I've been here for years!
Also, add backstory to early missions to give a sense of direction where a new player might take their career, or at least what is happening in the universe. (Why was the new pilot summoned to the station? Why is the government paying for training and combat practice? In the future, what do they hope to gain from this new pilot?) You have already made the illusion of flying in outer space, just add the space-faring society in to the mix.
Word.
Word.
You mean the green menu system which encompassed approximately 1/16 of the current menu system?
Yeah, RL. That one. Heh.
More, I dunno, what's the word? Oh yes: Immersion.
/me runs
(Only word that might get me in more trouble is If I say "Adapt.")
More, I dunno, what's the word? Oh yes: Immersion.
/me runs
(Only word that might get me in more trouble is If I say "Adapt.")