<vo> [100] <chip00> is it just me or is it odd to have to have full energy to worm hole jump when some batteries have say 250 and others 500? =P
<vo> [100] <IRCNolan Faux> Correct. It takes you more energy to jump with a bigger battery, which defies reason.
<vo> [100] <Menendel> it is kinda odd
<vo> [100] <IRCNolan Faux> Ought to be like, 50 for in system and 250 for wormhole.. then there'd be no problem.
<vo> [100] <chip00> guess I didnt realize the battery was in some physical perspective larger. If thats the case then it does make sense. Have to look at the mass next time.
<vo> [100] <IRCNolan Faux> Mass is the same. By larger I mean capacity

I apologize if this has been suggested before but I think it would do wonders for travel.

Wow, I didn't even think of that before.

It is there for a reason. ;)

For example if it was 50 for in system then an fc bat ship would jump every second. For Wormholes it's a trade off, the larger your battery the longer it take for you to jump.

Blame Arolte. Urban Legend has it the Devs implemented full drain due to his tactics.

It still doesn't make any sense. It doubley penalizes someone for not using an FC battery.

When you form a wormhole it is unstable, and will deteriorate rapidly unless you supply energy sufficient to transport an object. The amount of energy you need to supply is proportional to the energy capacity of the ship's battery, since the battery is the only part of the ship that causes any notable resistance to movement through the event horison, proportional to its capacitance.

Therefore ships with larger batteries need more energy to jump!

Naturally! :-)

Well, the Arolte thing is not entirely correct. You have always required full battery to jump through a wh(IIRC); what was added to remedy the problems "highlighted" by Arolte were the 25% energy requirement for intrasystem jumps and the one-minute delay to jump back through a wh you just came out of (I think this latter was turned to 30 seconds, wasn't it?).

But yeah, it doesn't make much sense that you're required to use all your battery energy regardless of battery type; people have argued a couple of possible solutions:

1. Have the jumps require a fixed amount of energy instead of the arbitrary 100%. For example, if we go with 250 units, so the freebatt requires a full charge for a wh, we'd get:

-Freebatt, FC (250 units): 100% required to jump
-Lightbatt, Hive FC, UC (300 units): 83% required to jump
-Medbatt (450 units): 55% required to jump
-Heavybatt (550 units): 45% required to jump

It would make some batteries better now for things like racing and chasing (and by extension, pirating), even if most still don't offer Infiniboost. The med and heavy batts suddenly become more valuable, since you could use up half (either turboing or firing) and still jump without need for recharge. These makes some people (traders, mostly) queasy, but imagine a valk rune being finally able to run away with pure xith, or an SCP running around freely!

2. Tie the energy requirement to the ship's mass. Logical: bigger ships require a bigger effort to jump; or rather, "logical", since wh jumping is a SciFi convention and cannot be explained scientifically, really. Still, this would move the issue from a fixed energy requirement (which would feel as artificial as "always 100%" does), though if it would have any effect on how batts are perceived now, no one's sure since no one has thought up some "benchmarks". Let's try with a Vult and a Moth:

Vult MkI: 4,200kg mass
Behemoth: 30,000kg mass

Let's say 1 unit of batt energy is required for every 100 kg of mass. So then, to move the ships we need

Vult: 4200/100 = 42 units
Behemoth: 30000/100 = 300 units

You can quickly see how this could be troublesome; while the Vult requires almost nothing, the Moth can't be moved now with an FC, being forced to use a Light or Hive which are not Infiniboost, until the pilot can get his hands on a UC. We could try upping the mass one unit of energy can move, so the moth could use a FC, but that would make the Vult even easier to move.

If we used, say, 150kg per battery, unit, we'd get

Vult: 4200/150 = 28 units
Behemoth: 30000/150 = 200 units

Not bad, is it? But we still have to factor in the mass of the battery itself, plus any addons; some might even want to factor in any cargo the ship is carrying.

Bottom line: either of these approaches would require a lot of tweaking and would entail a lot of whining and protesting while a proper balance was achieved. Someone think of solutions for these issues or come up with another idea!

How about a flat "fee" to open the wormhole, and then a drain for mass?

Let's say I have a Moth that weighs 100tonnes including addons and cargo.
50 units open the wormhole, then (mass/100)/5 to jump.
((100000/100)/5)+50 = 250
That means a very laden 'Moth would completely drain an FC.

Then let's say a combat-ready Vulture weighs in at 8tonnes.
((8000/100)/5)+50 = 66

In-system would have the same cost, except there is no wormhole to open, leaving our lumbering super-trade Moth at 200 on the other end, and the Vulture at 16.

As for whining during the balancing phase, and the eventual "This will kill PVP in VO" posts, I think we'll pull through

Okay, I came up with a different idea.

A charging of the battery prior to the jump!
This means, no more "safe warping" with turbo already engaged unless you have the power to mass ratio required (better for pirating)!

Lets just consider moving the heaviest objects in the game first...

What is the most Massive item in the game, and how much mass is it?


A flat minimum amount of energy required for any wormhole jump *times* mass (including cargo) = Total energy required for a wormhole / an arbitrary number (waiting for answer to make a moth with samo jumpable) = Total time for charge.

It shouldn't be more than a few seconds, but solves a bunch of silly things, as well as adds suspense in the chore of traveling through pirated areas.

The problem I see with Kirks Idea is that it would make traveling slower.

Question answered thanks Zed!

this has been debated time over again and the devs decided a while ago (and before that) to just ignore the issue because... well, i dont know.

to this, i reiterate it sucks. and i reiterate my opinion that a wh jump should cost the same number of units regardless of battery type.

oh. and i want the old in-sector warp jump animation back.

and warp-kill too. heck: the cappies have shields now, so it's not like we can zap 'em anymore (warp-killer should suffer as much dammage as he generates though).

Well then we should forget about that little post incarnate wrote about polling the userbase for most needed improvements. Last time I checked the developers of this game were looking for ideas not silencing them?! I don't think we should be limited to suggestions in any way, the only possible things that can come from suggestions and well organized thought patterns are good. A little frustrating
but I'll keep paying for a game that I see a huge future in because I have faith in "incarnate", and he actually seems like he's interested in our opinions, and like he's trying.

ANYWAY sorry about the rant but I kindof had to because I'm about to spend some old fashioned time on working out the jump numbers of a couple of ships.
uppercase- I like the idea of changing the animation of in-system jumps back to the original vanishing ship sequence.

Jump Calculations: Time = Y axis ; Mass = X Axis

Curve is increasing, but rate of increasing decreases. (Radical X curve)
Weight:

Moth : 30,000kg
Loaded full of Xith : 36,000kg
Total (minus any equipment): 66,000kg

IBG : 3,000kg
Total (minus any equipment) :3,000kg

Time:
250,000,000kg (fully loaded moth with samo) takes about an entire minute, but you're better off taking more than less because taking less is proportionately more waiting time.

Moth : @ 66,000kg about 5 seconds

IBG : @ 3,000kg about half a second

IMO you're wasting your time. But feel free ;)

I'm gonna go with Antz:
When you form a wormhole it is unstable, and will deteriorate rapidly unless you supply energy sufficient to transport an object. The amount of energy you need to supply is proportional to the energy capacity of the ship's battery, since the battery is the only part of the ship that causes any notable resistance to movement through the event horison, proportional to its capacitance.

Therefore ships with larger batteries need more energy to jump!

Naturally! :-)

His explanation is clever, and doesn't require any sort of change. It makes some strange sense to me that mass can go through a wormhole easier than energy. This would also explain why it takes 1/4 of a battery to jump in system, but if you jump with a full battery you come out on the other side with nothing left. 0/4 must = 3/4, once your ship enters the vortex.

I wonder if Antz helped write the "Star Trek Technical Manual"...

Anyway, yes, just like "Heisenberg Compensators", his idea works and explains things without making any ingame changes necessary.

I like exploring the capability of using mass as the deciding factor for how long it takes to open a wormhole, however. Nevermind the battery charge, let's just say that opening a wormhole requires an expenditure of "Battery Energy" equal to a % of ship mass.

At 3 tons (lightest ship) you need 300 cu of energy to open up the wormhole, so with a full battery you can do it in under 2 seconds with a FC, or immediately with a full UC, light, med, or heavy. Plus, with a med or heavy you can go through with a "not-full" battery. Sounds OK so far, right?

Well, hold on: At 70 tons (full behemoth with heavy goods) you'd need 7000 cu of energy, which would take a loooong time to open up a wormhole. Somewhere along the scale of 2 to 3 minutes for a Behemoth to traverse a Wormhole. Never mind the larger ships that everyone wants to pilot.

So, we can either:
A) Accept Antz' explanation of the inner-workings, or
B) We can persuade the devs to totally redo the way that batteries work ingame. (And probably engines, too.)

I'm going with option "a".

Putting on my techno babble BS hat.

I think the requirements could explained by the unstable nature and traumatic energy release of causing a wormhole event horizon.

A full battery is required because the trigger is like a massive EMP, and the only way to establish one is a single shot burst, only available to batteries at full charge, much like the capacitor in a camera flash.

For in system jumps, batteries are capable of the required limited burst with only 25% capacity.

The event horizon exists for the initiating ship, regardless of its size. This is a portal and not limited by the mass that needs to move through the door.

There is speculation that a physical dimension limit to ships does exist, but it is so geometrically large (on the scale of a large moon) as to not have been an issue so far.

In order to protect the ship through the wormhole, all energy production systems remain off line until the wormhole is cleared, thus the ship leaves the wormhole without any power, and all turbo off.

This requirement exists for both short in system jumps, and longer jumps using wormholes.

Early probe attempts with energy production systems online, would inexplicably produce an inverse energy draw effect from the space passed by, causing a massive explosion, and complete destruction of the vessel.

Ion storms proved particularly challenging, as regardless of the production of energy, anything that could contain energy would instantly over charge, causing the same result as active energy production. Early detection, and emergency exit technology was required to support in system jumps, and prevent disasters.

Once basic understanding of this phenomenon this was established, it became common practice to turn off all energy production systems during transit.

Speculation as to how this massive energy influx is caused continues, however no viable way to control and harness it has ever been developed.

PsyRa is right, we learned about this druring my flightPhys 457 class, "Space Flight and You." Man that test was hard... Passed that class by the skin of my teath. Anyway, we can explain everything away, or come up with new "exciting" ideas about how the ingame "space travel" is, dare I say, wrong. I like the crazy techincal answers, a lot of creativity and thought went into them. Also the more realistic mass-energy-time-capasitance-resistance ratio ones, those are FUN. But, I think if you make traiding suck any more, it's going to die. I'll say I'll be the "whinner", having a Moth sit at a wormhole for even 30 seconds, much less two minutes will make pirating too easy and make it imposible to defend your self. My understanting of the situation is that you are charging up, so if you fire a weapon, discarge, wait longer, thank you for playing... Plus Unless these ratios and times are told to you every time you go to jump, in system or wh, people are never going to remember how long it takes are what they need to do. Oh, and this would not affect PvP, actually this would help increase it, easy to jump into a system, don't have to wait on a full batt charge... great, but traiding would suffer big time.
Maybe if these priciples were implicated with capships, I think that would make a lot of since.
Oh, I love these ideas, keep them coming. Who knows maybe I'm wrong. [not going to happen, but who knows :) ]

Just as a note: In system jumps used to be a bullet type animation, like a railgun firing. No evidence of miniature wormholes opened up or anything. Just keep that in mind.

Well in system jumps are pretty different from going through a wormhole, the graphic effects should be different...