Forums » Suggestions
Missles are largely useless because (1) everyone knows they're coming and (2) given that much time they're easy to dodge.
What about this:
a) Fire your missles without a target lock. Their useful existance period begins, and they run in a straight line (same as now).
b) By targeting someone or something, and perhaps issuing a 'lock-on' command, your previously untargeted (and hence unbeeping) missles will alter their previous dumb-fire course and start tracking the target.
c) Rather than having the tracking start far away, if you judged the distances right the missles start tracking on the target, and giving out their signature 'beep beep beep', much closer. Target is more surprised and less able to avoid them.
d) Target dies.
e)....
f) PROFIT!!!!111
What about this:
a) Fire your missles without a target lock. Their useful existance period begins, and they run in a straight line (same as now).
b) By targeting someone or something, and perhaps issuing a 'lock-on' command, your previously untargeted (and hence unbeeping) missles will alter their previous dumb-fire course and start tracking the target.
c) Rather than having the tracking start far away, if you judged the distances right the missles start tracking on the target, and giving out their signature 'beep beep beep', much closer. Target is more surprised and less able to avoid them.
d) Target dies.
e)....
f) PROFIT!!!!111
i think missles work well as they are now. if you fire them without tracking, they work like rockets. most light ships can dodge them, but overloaded ships have to flat out run, if they have time to do even that. missles are perfect for hitting those annoying spam rags/tuars and cap ships.
i don't want to see the game get taken over by fire and forget weapons, and your suggestion is only a fractional decrease in the forgetability of missles, while making them a significant threat to light fighters.
missles can be quite effective when used with skill and tactics. get closer to your target and arrange for your target to be moving towards you, or combine the missles with a rocket so if they try the simple barrel roll dodge the rocket will get them, and if they use the strait strafe dodge the missles will get them. also mix in an energy weapon to take advantage of them being distracted by the missles/rockets.
just keep practicing lecter, and given time you will get good at pvp.
i don't want to see the game get taken over by fire and forget weapons, and your suggestion is only a fractional decrease in the forgetability of missles, while making them a significant threat to light fighters.
missles can be quite effective when used with skill and tactics. get closer to your target and arrange for your target to be moving towards you, or combine the missles with a rocket so if they try the simple barrel roll dodge the rocket will get them, and if they use the strait strafe dodge the missles will get them. also mix in an energy weapon to take advantage of them being distracted by the missles/rockets.
just keep practicing lecter, and given time you will get good at pvp.
I like it.
I would want to avoid the ability to dumbfire a missile in the direction of an opponent, wait until the missile is very near them, and then abruptly target and hit the opponent without enough warning to take any action at all. I think there should be just enough warning to take evasive action. Perhaps there would be a minimum distance to acquire a new target otherwise the missile would have to take time to reorient.
Skilled missile users already know that some missiles are more effective under certain conditions (i.e. gems at 650m assuming full speed ahead and target travelling toward or at an angle to launcher - never away or behind), but I've always wanted the ability to acquire a new target if it becomes clear my original target is no longer viable.
I would want to avoid the ability to dumbfire a missile in the direction of an opponent, wait until the missile is very near them, and then abruptly target and hit the opponent without enough warning to take any action at all. I think there should be just enough warning to take evasive action. Perhaps there would be a minimum distance to acquire a new target otherwise the missile would have to take time to reorient.
Skilled missile users already know that some missiles are more effective under certain conditions (i.e. gems at 650m assuming full speed ahead and target travelling toward or at an angle to launcher - never away or behind), but I've always wanted the ability to acquire a new target if it becomes clear my original target is no longer viable.
I can see this being really cool for a certain type of missile but not all missiles.
I agree with Ghost.
But, overall, as long as you have:
a fast enough video card and/or
a fast enough ping and/or
a fast enough ship,
... you should be able to avoid seekers.
How's this: as well as the "dumb launch/remote seeking activation", you also have a "remote detonation" so you can detonate early if your target's too fast, thereby getting at least some splash damage.
Plus, it would be neat for some kinds of missiles to automatically select differing parabolic paths to the target, so that you don't have 8 missiles following the same path. Add some extra "life" time to the missiles so that they can still reach the target. Perhaps they launch at 30 degree arcs off-angle and arc back, enclosing the target in a kind of "net".
Even better, allow this arc setting to be controlled by the player. You could set it from 0 (shoot straight ahead) to 90 (shoot out at right angles for a limited time before engaging seek mode) to 180 (shoot straight behind.) Or, even set the angle to be "random" for a truly chaotic firing pattern. And you could use the "dumb fire" to allow the missiles to drift out at those angles enough to create a wide or narrow net as circumstances dictate.
Then swarm-usage would become an art, and not just a fire-and-forget defensive mechanism.
But, overall, as long as you have:
a fast enough video card and/or
a fast enough ping and/or
a fast enough ship,
... you should be able to avoid seekers.
How's this: as well as the "dumb launch/remote seeking activation", you also have a "remote detonation" so you can detonate early if your target's too fast, thereby getting at least some splash damage.
Plus, it would be neat for some kinds of missiles to automatically select differing parabolic paths to the target, so that you don't have 8 missiles following the same path. Add some extra "life" time to the missiles so that they can still reach the target. Perhaps they launch at 30 degree arcs off-angle and arc back, enclosing the target in a kind of "net".
Even better, allow this arc setting to be controlled by the player. You could set it from 0 (shoot straight ahead) to 90 (shoot out at right angles for a limited time before engaging seek mode) to 180 (shoot straight behind.) Or, even set the angle to be "random" for a truly chaotic firing pattern. And you could use the "dumb fire" to allow the missiles to drift out at those angles enough to create a wide or narrow net as circumstances dictate.
Then swarm-usage would become an art, and not just a fire-and-forget defensive mechanism.
..anyone considered multi-stage cluster missiles? it'd take some back-end work ing the engine, most likely, but what if you launced a *big* guided missile at someone that you could later remote-detonate into a cloud of fast-seeking (and maybe beep-less) bomblets...
Or, like the really cool effects in movies, have the multiple missile launcher, like the Swarm missile launcher fire a storm. Instead of abead of 8 missiles, they cgo off in crazy spiralling patterns to reach their targets. Upside is that while it is easier to hit, it's unlikely they'll all hit.
mmm, like a drunk missile? (the Triad Rises again :O )
"Missles are largely useless because (1) everyone knows they're coming and (2) given that much time they're easy to dodge."
YET EVERYONE THROWS BIG, DRAMATIC FITS EVERY TIME I FIRE ONE ANYWAY
So tell me this, are they:
a) incompetent pilots who are only going to complain more if missiles they're too dumb to avoid get beefed
b) whiney bitches who are only going to complain more if missiles they don't like seeing get beefed
c) have a point about use of missiles being cheap enough as is, and are only going to complain more if they get beefed
or
d) both (a) and (b)
I'd pick D... and point back to my post on swarm balancing and spam prevention.
The purpose of missiles is not to be useful against light or agile targets, especially in an offensive fashion. They are a heavy bombing and heavy defense weapon, and do not need any buffing to make them more threatening in other areas. If you want something to use against more agile targets, get flares, or even energy. The missiles are a good example of exactly what the universe needs right now - role-specific weapons that perform one function far better than another. They are GREAT against queens, capital ships and heavy bumbers, and margainally effective against medium ships or light ships with reckless pilots as a defensive weapon and ganking deterrant. Anything else? get flares, or non-ordinance energy weapons.
YET EVERYONE THROWS BIG, DRAMATIC FITS EVERY TIME I FIRE ONE ANYWAY
So tell me this, are they:
a) incompetent pilots who are only going to complain more if missiles they're too dumb to avoid get beefed
b) whiney bitches who are only going to complain more if missiles they don't like seeing get beefed
c) have a point about use of missiles being cheap enough as is, and are only going to complain more if they get beefed
or
d) both (a) and (b)
I'd pick D... and point back to my post on swarm balancing and spam prevention.
The purpose of missiles is not to be useful against light or agile targets, especially in an offensive fashion. They are a heavy bombing and heavy defense weapon, and do not need any buffing to make them more threatening in other areas. If you want something to use against more agile targets, get flares, or even energy. The missiles are a good example of exactly what the universe needs right now - role-specific weapons that perform one function far better than another. They are GREAT against queens, capital ships and heavy bumbers, and margainally effective against medium ships or light ships with reckless pilots as a defensive weapon and ganking deterrant. Anything else? get flares, or non-ordinance energy weapons.
Like Stargate Atlantis 3x01 when hive ships get attacked. Yeah, would be cool I guess... and probably not too hard to implement. Not much gained implementing it either though.
It should also be pointed out that the threat of swarms completely changes a fight, whether or not they are ever fired. That alone makes them useful in my opinion.
If by changes you mean results in a lot of flying around and then running by the spamming ship, yeah. Changes more or less into a circle-jerk and chase.
LeberMac has a great suggestion for the missiles. Lets keep what's in game the way it is, but introduce a couple new types of missiles with these properties.
Some missiles should have the option of being activated at a certain point after firing, either on a preset timer or manually. The missiles would be fired as dumbfire rockets, and when activated become armed and begin homing. There would be significant advantages to being able to use these effectively, offset by the fact that they are trickier to use.
Another similar suggestion is in another thread somewhere, of a mine/missile combo. It would sit in space until either triggered by proximity or manually. When activated, it then becomes a homing missile.
thurisaz's cluster idea also was in the Capital Weapons thread. Multiple-warhead weapons of all sizes are a good idea. They would even be balanced. The more warheads packed into the same size casing would increase the potential number of hits, but would decrease the power of each of those hits. A missile with 10 warheads could have 85% the total damage potential of a singe warhead in the same size missile, because some of the space that would be used for the warhead would instead be used to make the warhead seperate into individual missiles. Increasing the missile's size to increase the power/quantity of warheads would obviously increase the mass of the missile and decrease the number your ship can hold. Larger missiles would be slower, too, and while the smaller individual missiles would be homing, the original missile casing containing the multiple warheads would not. This would mostly be a capital ship/station defense weapon.
This could also be interesting used as a mine. The mine, when triggered, could fire multiple missiles in all directions.
For firing the missiles at different angles to give them different arcs, you have to consider the launcher. If the launcher is large, it might be stationary, which means that the firing angle would be fixed, and must be determined when equipping the launcher. Depending on the size and shape of the launcher, and the size and shape of the ship, some angles may be impossible. (I know since it's all a game, technically they can be programmed to fire in any angle, but in this case realism is important to roleplay.) This means that different ships would be better with certain missiles because of the angles possible. This may increase the variety of ships used with missiles.
Other missiles, on bigger ships, could be fired from launchers that can swivel, or maybe even missile turrets. The turrets could be set either to aim at the target, or to rotate constantly.
Another possibility is to have missiles that have a certain amount of randomness to their flight path until they are near the target. They could weave back and forth, or spiral, or make random course changes within a certain range from the target (so they're at least generally headed towards the target) until close enough that they simply go for the kill. The randomness would make dodging difficult, and look cool, too.
Some missiles should have the option of being activated at a certain point after firing, either on a preset timer or manually. The missiles would be fired as dumbfire rockets, and when activated become armed and begin homing. There would be significant advantages to being able to use these effectively, offset by the fact that they are trickier to use.
Another similar suggestion is in another thread somewhere, of a mine/missile combo. It would sit in space until either triggered by proximity or manually. When activated, it then becomes a homing missile.
thurisaz's cluster idea also was in the Capital Weapons thread. Multiple-warhead weapons of all sizes are a good idea. They would even be balanced. The more warheads packed into the same size casing would increase the potential number of hits, but would decrease the power of each of those hits. A missile with 10 warheads could have 85% the total damage potential of a singe warhead in the same size missile, because some of the space that would be used for the warhead would instead be used to make the warhead seperate into individual missiles. Increasing the missile's size to increase the power/quantity of warheads would obviously increase the mass of the missile and decrease the number your ship can hold. Larger missiles would be slower, too, and while the smaller individual missiles would be homing, the original missile casing containing the multiple warheads would not. This would mostly be a capital ship/station defense weapon.
This could also be interesting used as a mine. The mine, when triggered, could fire multiple missiles in all directions.
For firing the missiles at different angles to give them different arcs, you have to consider the launcher. If the launcher is large, it might be stationary, which means that the firing angle would be fixed, and must be determined when equipping the launcher. Depending on the size and shape of the launcher, and the size and shape of the ship, some angles may be impossible. (I know since it's all a game, technically they can be programmed to fire in any angle, but in this case realism is important to roleplay.) This means that different ships would be better with certain missiles because of the angles possible. This may increase the variety of ships used with missiles.
Other missiles, on bigger ships, could be fired from launchers that can swivel, or maybe even missile turrets. The turrets could be set either to aim at the target, or to rotate constantly.
Another possibility is to have missiles that have a certain amount of randomness to their flight path until they are near the target. They could weave back and forth, or spiral, or make random course changes within a certain range from the target (so they're at least generally headed towards the target) until close enough that they simply go for the kill. The randomness would make dodging difficult, and look cool, too.
So, basically, what you want is the ability to kill some unsuspecting player from 3000m away.
Looks like just another way to kill all the pvp skill based fun in VO.
Looks like just another way to kill all the pvp skill based fun in VO.
To be effective, any mine would need to be in a minefield, or at least a cluster. Countermeasures would have to be made. I think we need more missile countermeasures, anyway. These mines would not destroy PvP, just make it more interesting.
I would like to see a type of missile that only goes where your nose is pointing. It wouldn't beep (obviously), and it would be nearly impossible to use cheap tactics with it (target, fire, run away).
Good suggestions, keep them coming. A couple of points:
1) The "swarm missiles" were originally supposed to be true.. swarm missiles. Like this crazy batch of stuff that comes flying out with long trails and such. This wasn't possible due to engine problems for many years (we never added the right type of trails, and then the trails would suddenly vanish if the missile itself were clipped from view). But.. relatively recently (a few months ago) Ray made some modifications so I can "sort of" hack it in. It's still not as cool as it would be if we had polygonal trails instead of particle trails, but I can probably make them all look a lot cooler. Of course, since then I've been busy caring for my truck-challenged girlfriend and seeing to other higher-priority topics. But, hopefully I'll get to take a look at effects again sometime soon (and not Soon(tm)).
2) More about the Behaviour of missiles, which is what this really about.. I would like to make homing missiles more generically formidable. However, doing so (in my eyes) requires the existence of countermeasures. Missiles have kind of stagnated in their current not-very-dangerous yet-not-entirely-useless role because there hasn't been any forward motion in the countermeasures world. When this takes place, hopefully I can see about making them more deadly. It's not a hard thing to do, I just have to up their speed and maneuverability, and they'll suddenly be a lot more challenging. Of course, I'll roll that out in new missiles rather than muck with the existing ones.
Anyway, I welcome further suggestions about the whole missile thing. At least we have some new sounds (thanks to one of the interns).
1) The "swarm missiles" were originally supposed to be true.. swarm missiles. Like this crazy batch of stuff that comes flying out with long trails and such. This wasn't possible due to engine problems for many years (we never added the right type of trails, and then the trails would suddenly vanish if the missile itself were clipped from view). But.. relatively recently (a few months ago) Ray made some modifications so I can "sort of" hack it in. It's still not as cool as it would be if we had polygonal trails instead of particle trails, but I can probably make them all look a lot cooler. Of course, since then I've been busy caring for my truck-challenged girlfriend and seeing to other higher-priority topics. But, hopefully I'll get to take a look at effects again sometime soon (and not Soon(tm)).
2) More about the Behaviour of missiles, which is what this really about.. I would like to make homing missiles more generically formidable. However, doing so (in my eyes) requires the existence of countermeasures. Missiles have kind of stagnated in their current not-very-dangerous yet-not-entirely-useless role because there hasn't been any forward motion in the countermeasures world. When this takes place, hopefully I can see about making them more deadly. It's not a hard thing to do, I just have to up their speed and maneuverability, and they'll suddenly be a lot more challenging. Of course, I'll roll that out in new missiles rather than muck with the existing ones.
Anyway, I welcome further suggestions about the whole missile thing. At least we have some new sounds (thanks to one of the interns).
Inc, as much as countermeasures would be nice. If the only way to deal with missiles is to bring countermeasures for them, (Imagine missiles back in beta... the crazy maneuverable kind that were next to impossible to evade) then where's the fun in that?
I think Lecter's suggestion, or something like it is a good one. Make the usage of missiles an active skill.
If I had the link I would link CrippledPigeon's Missile thread.
I think having missile locks would be perfect, then you speed up missiles to on the order of neutron blasts, have velocity stack with how fast you're moving, and lower the maneuvering by a little. You get a really fast projectile with changing autoaim. But you have to hold them in the crosshairs for a while.
I think Lecter's suggestion, or something like it is a good one. Make the usage of missiles an active skill.
If I had the link I would link CrippledPigeon's Missile thread.
I think having missile locks would be perfect, then you speed up missiles to on the order of neutron blasts, have velocity stack with how fast you're moving, and lower the maneuvering by a little. You get a really fast projectile with changing autoaim. But you have to hold them in the crosshairs for a while.
NEUTRON BLASTS?! WTF? You wanna have missiles that leave a ship at 190-208 m/s?!?!
Those would be the most lethal weapons in the game! Can you imagine getting out of the way of a swarm that was coming at you at upwards of 250 m/s?! You wouldn't need any skill, nor would you need rockets or blasters....
Those would be the most lethal weapons in the game! Can you imagine getting out of the way of a swarm that was coming at you at upwards of 250 m/s?! You wouldn't need any skill, nor would you need rockets or blasters....
Not neccesarily true, Snax. If missile were extremely fast and very long lasting but a fighter could maneuver out of the way, it would add a lot. Lector's ideas would make missles too powerful I think... they'd become the ultimate spam weapon.
Perhaps countermeasures could be completely electronic- i.e. they take time to recharge on the ship. So if say, Lector fires a missle at Tamion, Tamion can knock one out with his ECM (electronic countermeasure) and then have to dodge a few until his system comes back online. This way ppl wouldn't have to buy countermeasures all the time just to survive.
If swarms are the same as they were 4-5 months ago when I last played, then I never had any trouble with them. They're too slow and too obvious- I just ran around in circles till they died, shooting at the spammer when I could. Eventually he'd run out and then he was screwed.
Tamion
Perhaps countermeasures could be completely electronic- i.e. they take time to recharge on the ship. So if say, Lector fires a missle at Tamion, Tamion can knock one out with his ECM (electronic countermeasure) and then have to dodge a few until his system comes back online. This way ppl wouldn't have to buy countermeasures all the time just to survive.
If swarms are the same as they were 4-5 months ago when I last played, then I never had any trouble with them. They're too slow and too obvious- I just ran around in circles till they died, shooting at the spammer when I could. Eventually he'd run out and then he was screwed.
Tamion