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T'would be grat eh? we can dream :)
Well, I don't do much PvP in VO. Why? Because I suck at it.
So, what's in there for me? Trading. I have a bunch of millions of credits.
In real life, someone with a bunch of money could spend it to start a business to make even more money.
I'd like to pay a million credits to rent manufacturing space in a station for a month (or whatever) and then either buy (from players or NPCs) the resources needed to make parts.
If I had a few million dollars in real life, I could call up a factory manager somewhere and ask them to produce a few thousand .... lamps?
I provide truckloads of components, and they produce the lamps.
Then, all I'd need is a market for the produced goods, and I'd make my millions back, and with a profit.
In VO I'd put a few millions in a station, along with the supplies needed, to produce a thousand plasma cores, then two thousand power regulators and five hundred weapons casings and weapons mounts.
Then, ofcourse, I'd have it all assembled to five hundred plasma turrets.
I would not be sitting under a tree carving plasma turrets from bear tusks. That is silly.
My point is: I want the industry, and I want to buy into the industrial machinery behind the scenes.
While I agree that it is silly for me, as an indevidual, to make weapons or ships or whatever, it is produced ingame, so why can't I buy into the industry?
So, what's in there for me? Trading. I have a bunch of millions of credits.
In real life, someone with a bunch of money could spend it to start a business to make even more money.
I'd like to pay a million credits to rent manufacturing space in a station for a month (or whatever) and then either buy (from players or NPCs) the resources needed to make parts.
If I had a few million dollars in real life, I could call up a factory manager somewhere and ask them to produce a few thousand .... lamps?
I provide truckloads of components, and they produce the lamps.
Then, all I'd need is a market for the produced goods, and I'd make my millions back, and with a profit.
In VO I'd put a few millions in a station, along with the supplies needed, to produce a thousand plasma cores, then two thousand power regulators and five hundred weapons casings and weapons mounts.
Then, ofcourse, I'd have it all assembled to five hundred plasma turrets.
I would not be sitting under a tree carving plasma turrets from bear tusks. That is silly.
My point is: I want the industry, and I want to buy into the industrial machinery behind the scenes.
While I agree that it is silly for me, as an indevidual, to make weapons or ships or whatever, it is produced ingame, so why can't I buy into the industry?
EXACTLY! Thanks, Demonen.
You prove that there are indeed people who want to fill different niches in this game. For those who want nothing but to fight all day long, don't worry about crafting! If there's something you want, request it and buy it, or if you want to you can do some sort of crafting. For those of us who suck at fighting, go into business! This is an RPG, is it not? Different roles to play will attract and keep a diverse player base and keep the universe vibrant and dynamic.
You prove that there are indeed people who want to fill different niches in this game. For those who want nothing but to fight all day long, don't worry about crafting! If there's something you want, request it and buy it, or if you want to you can do some sort of crafting. For those of us who suck at fighting, go into business! This is an RPG, is it not? Different roles to play will attract and keep a diverse player base and keep the universe vibrant and dynamic.
Yeah, I seriously hope we can all become little industry masters soon! :D
then have corrupted tycoons that controll theh world!!!!!!
Actually, that would be cool if we end up with corrupted tycoons with monopolies. What better villian to have in an RPG? In real life you can't just be a vigilante and go shoot up the tycoon's supply lines and stuff, but here in VO, we can. And with an ever-expanding universe, there would be places to go and build up an underground organization to bring down the tycoon.
That would require way more playing hours that I can allocate right now...
Hehe, I could have my main character be a corrupt tycoon with a monopoly leading a mob, and my alt character could be a rebel trying to bring down that tycoon....The two characters would never meet....
And the rebel would actually be a spy! Oh noes!
It would indeed be very intriguing if the equipment and ships in this game truly came from somewhere. In my mind's eye, I see miners collecting premium ore, traders shipping that ore, tycoons producing the weapons and ships from that same ore into weapons, that could be further distributed by traders again, for our warriors and pirates to put into their ships. You could go as far as to include quality of weaponry. For example, assuming that the production of plasma cannons require denic ore, a mk II cannon might require 3 CU's, while a mk III cannon requires 4 CU's. Looking at things this way, a nation's equipment would be based on the minerals readily available, perhaps giving the individuals nations, or even systems more identity. Perhaps Itani have more Denic ore, making for better batteries, or Serco with greater amounts of Pyronic ore, making their ships sturdier, or what have you. New ore types even?
My dream is that ultimately one day, stations will no longer need to have an infinate surplus of credits and trade goods, but only a 'desire' for certain goods. I think that when this universe can run smoothly without the exchange of any credits, then it will be ready for player run economy. Afterall, the value of money is only as good as what you can get for it. A neutron blaster might be worth a thousand credits, or a million, but that doesn't change the fact that it's just a neutron blaster. The most important thing is the system by which a player gets his equipment.
My Example:
Miner>Trader>Manufacturer>Trader>Combatant
I hope this inspires some new ideas. Oh, and to Shapenaji, "Sword cut, spear stab, mace smash, arrow jab..."
My dream is that ultimately one day, stations will no longer need to have an infinate surplus of credits and trade goods, but only a 'desire' for certain goods. I think that when this universe can run smoothly without the exchange of any credits, then it will be ready for player run economy. Afterall, the value of money is only as good as what you can get for it. A neutron blaster might be worth a thousand credits, or a million, but that doesn't change the fact that it's just a neutron blaster. The most important thing is the system by which a player gets his equipment.
My Example:
Miner>Trader>Manufacturer>Trader>Combatant
I hope this inspires some new ideas. Oh, and to Shapenaji, "Sword cut, spear stab, mace smash, arrow jab..."
As an afterthought, why not use mining bots anymore? Imagine it... clear out a sector certified by your nation, install your own station plus bots, and hire mercenaries to keep it hive bot clean. I've seen the Itani and Serco using bots for Capture the Cargo, so I know it can be done.
I can just imagine the corporate wars that would ensue, showing up in someone else's sector with a dozen Dentek Assault drones, and vying for control. Or even better... one day a hive queen happens to fall across your peaceful commercial outpost.
I can just imagine the corporate wars that would ensue, showing up in someone else's sector with a dozen Dentek Assault drones, and vying for control. Or even better... one day a hive queen happens to fall across your peaceful commercial outpost.
Most of that is coming, complete redo of the economy including new ores and redistribution of those ores.
As for your quality comment, mostly quality of a product is determined by what is used, not how much. Two ion cannons might use exactly the same amount of material, but one uses a better material. Or, on the other hand, they might have the exact same amount of the exact same materials, but one was built better, by a higher skilled laborer. There should definately be variations in quality, based on quality (not quantity) of materials, and how much time was put into it.
If I own an assembly plant, I want the option to have my plant produce in one hour either 25 crappy ion cannons, 15 mid-grade ion cannons, or 8 high-quality ion cannons. Each cannon, regardless of quality, would use the same amount of material. The only difference would be that my workers spent more time on the high-quality ones, tweaking them and making sure there are no defects. Which I assign to the production queue depends on what my market is. I would probably want a variety, so that I can attract customers ranging from newbies and veterans who have fallen on hard times, to middle-class and rich customers who want quality. Alternately, I can assign the plant to use a higher quality ore, not affecting production time, but increasing product quality. The price to me would be that I paid more for that ore.
As for your quality comment, mostly quality of a product is determined by what is used, not how much. Two ion cannons might use exactly the same amount of material, but one uses a better material. Or, on the other hand, they might have the exact same amount of the exact same materials, but one was built better, by a higher skilled laborer. There should definately be variations in quality, based on quality (not quantity) of materials, and how much time was put into it.
If I own an assembly plant, I want the option to have my plant produce in one hour either 25 crappy ion cannons, 15 mid-grade ion cannons, or 8 high-quality ion cannons. Each cannon, regardless of quality, would use the same amount of material. The only difference would be that my workers spent more time on the high-quality ones, tweaking them and making sure there are no defects. Which I assign to the production queue depends on what my market is. I would probably want a variety, so that I can attract customers ranging from newbies and veterans who have fallen on hard times, to middle-class and rich customers who want quality. Alternately, I can assign the plant to use a higher quality ore, not affecting production time, but increasing product quality. The price to me would be that I paid more for that ore.
Also, SuperMegaMynt, as an afterthought to your afterthought, that would be cool. My idea is that when you are building your station, you can build a module that manufactures ships. You can set it to either manufacture ships for purchase by players and NPCs, or to build robots. If you don't have enough friends or there aren't enough people in your guild to guard and defend your station, you can build station guards, and give them preset commands for when you are out of the sector or out of the game entirely.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/14744
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/14744
Your ideas make me think of eve.
There are obviously two groups of people who play VO (simplifying things of course), those who want crafting and those that don't.
For myself, I don't want the added content that crafting would create. Why should someone who can spend longer in VO than someone else be able to make things that improve their weapons and ships etc.? The players that can't dedicate as much time will then be at a disadvantage, because they will need to trade to be able to buy those upgrades (if they are being sold of course), which will cut down on the combat or whatever.
There are other games that have crafting, and I know of quite a few players that stick to VO because it doesn't have it.
For myself, I don't want the added content that crafting would create. Why should someone who can spend longer in VO than someone else be able to make things that improve their weapons and ships etc.? The players that can't dedicate as much time will then be at a disadvantage, because they will need to trade to be able to buy those upgrades (if they are being sold of course), which will cut down on the combat or whatever.
There are other games that have crafting, and I know of quite a few players that stick to VO because it doesn't have it.
Well Professor, regardind your comments about quality, I think you're right on that one, that time and supplies are what yield true quality... and further shows why I don't see myself running anything larger than my lil' behemoth. You on the other hand, I'd think you'd make an excellent station manager, or crafter, or whatever our subjects about these days, and can't for the day when/if such topics become a reality, just to see your skills bloom.
To show my sincerity, I'll quote the only useful thing said in this entire post, especially for those who aren't Racer:
"Could the advent of crafting make for a more dynamic, and enjoyable game for everyone? Yes.
Should crafting be *necessary* for players to maintain a competitive edge? Definately not."
To Racer,
Yes, I've made a similar distinction between players, and whether you'd believe it or not, I belong to the group which wouldn't want to practice crafting. This doesn't mean I wouldn't appreciate seeing others do it however, and in fact I'd enjoy being directly influenced by those who do practice it. But as you said before, there are these two different tyeps of people, which of course implies the natural solution of creating a game where experienced and devoted players can have their fun, as well as new and less frequent players.
One method of doing this would be implement player owned stations in the methods listed above and before. This way, "someone who can spend longer in VO than someone else be able to make things that improve their weapons and ships etc." can spend their free time running a station, while the less enthusiastic players, like you or me, can spend our time enjoying the same VO as we have currently.
In other words...
Could the advent of crafting make for a more dynamic, and enjoyable game for everyone? Yes.
Should crafting be *necessary* for players to maintain a competitive edge? Definately not. Right now, VO has no form of crafting. If this is the craftingless game that you enjoy, then I have an alterternative for you, should crafting ever become implented. Don't take part!
And now, I will point out the logical fallacies in your statement, Racer.
1. "Why should someone who can spend longer in VO than someone else be able to make things that improve their weapons and ships etc.? The players that can't dedicate as much time will then be at a disadvantage, because they will need to trade to be able to buy those upgrades (if they are being sold of course), which will cut down on the combat or whatever."
I hate to burst your bubble, but that's the game that you're currently playing. You need faction points to get things "improve their weapons and ships etc.". You need license levels on top of that. (Even Corvus requires licenses) You even need credits to get anything better than an EC-89, and a government issued plasma cannon. Can you truly imagine a game without any of these requirements? Without the content to "spend longer in VO than someone else [and] be able to make things that improve their weapons and ships etc."? That sounds like a pretty dull game to me...
2. "Which will cut down on combat or whatever".
... or whatever? You don't even know that player run stations will have *any* effect on PvP. It could be entirely commercial, but where does whatever come into play? Should we halt all servers on VO right this instant, because they're electronic, and cut down on combat or whatever? I hope I've made my point clear through example.
3. "There are other games that have crafting, and I know of quite a few players that stick to VO because it doesn't have it."
Well, I happen to know a quite a few people who don't work at Alberstons, because they like cleaning up after monkey feces. Although these people I know are the zookeepers, and they're not my close friends. I just happen to know them. And although it might be that they work at the zoo because it has better wages than Albertsons... but they still obviously work at the zoo over Albertsons for the monkey feces, and you can trust me because I know them.
In other words... Yes, I'm certain you know a few people that may have agreed with you in that VO doesn't have crafting, and that it is a good game. But even with our small player base, a handful of players you know means naught if you go around speaking for them. It could very well be that they think VO is an excellent game, and agree that there is no crafting, but not that it's a good game because there is no crafting, let alone that it would be worse off with it. If I am mistaken, than I'm mistaken. Otherwise...
To show my sincerity, I'll quote the only useful thing said in this entire post, especially for those who aren't Racer:
"Could the advent of crafting make for a more dynamic, and enjoyable game for everyone? Yes.
Should crafting be *necessary* for players to maintain a competitive edge? Definately not."
To Racer,
Yes, I've made a similar distinction between players, and whether you'd believe it or not, I belong to the group which wouldn't want to practice crafting. This doesn't mean I wouldn't appreciate seeing others do it however, and in fact I'd enjoy being directly influenced by those who do practice it. But as you said before, there are these two different tyeps of people, which of course implies the natural solution of creating a game where experienced and devoted players can have their fun, as well as new and less frequent players.
One method of doing this would be implement player owned stations in the methods listed above and before. This way, "someone who can spend longer in VO than someone else be able to make things that improve their weapons and ships etc." can spend their free time running a station, while the less enthusiastic players, like you or me, can spend our time enjoying the same VO as we have currently.
In other words...
Could the advent of crafting make for a more dynamic, and enjoyable game for everyone? Yes.
Should crafting be *necessary* for players to maintain a competitive edge? Definately not. Right now, VO has no form of crafting. If this is the craftingless game that you enjoy, then I have an alterternative for you, should crafting ever become implented. Don't take part!
And now, I will point out the logical fallacies in your statement, Racer.
1. "Why should someone who can spend longer in VO than someone else be able to make things that improve their weapons and ships etc.? The players that can't dedicate as much time will then be at a disadvantage, because they will need to trade to be able to buy those upgrades (if they are being sold of course), which will cut down on the combat or whatever."
I hate to burst your bubble, but that's the game that you're currently playing. You need faction points to get things "improve their weapons and ships etc.". You need license levels on top of that. (Even Corvus requires licenses) You even need credits to get anything better than an EC-89, and a government issued plasma cannon. Can you truly imagine a game without any of these requirements? Without the content to "spend longer in VO than someone else [and] be able to make things that improve their weapons and ships etc."? That sounds like a pretty dull game to me...
2. "Which will cut down on combat or whatever".
... or whatever? You don't even know that player run stations will have *any* effect on PvP. It could be entirely commercial, but where does whatever come into play? Should we halt all servers on VO right this instant, because they're electronic, and cut down on combat or whatever? I hope I've made my point clear through example.
3. "There are other games that have crafting, and I know of quite a few players that stick to VO because it doesn't have it."
Well, I happen to know a quite a few people who don't work at Alberstons, because they like cleaning up after monkey feces. Although these people I know are the zookeepers, and they're not my close friends. I just happen to know them. And although it might be that they work at the zoo because it has better wages than Albertsons... but they still obviously work at the zoo over Albertsons for the monkey feces, and you can trust me because I know them.
In other words... Yes, I'm certain you know a few people that may have agreed with you in that VO doesn't have crafting, and that it is a good game. But even with our small player base, a handful of players you know means naught if you go around speaking for them. It could very well be that they think VO is an excellent game, and agree that there is no crafting, but not that it's a good game because there is no crafting, let alone that it would be worse off with it. If I am mistaken, than I'm mistaken. Otherwise...
Crafting isn't questionnable in my opinion. In some form or another we NEED something to add ingame content. If you want all warior type to have a hand in crafting without crafting there are always ways.
My favorite idea is that hive bots would drop rare(ish) stuff sometimes. Like the equivalent of purified xith. For example you could make that each purified xith requires about 10 units of premium xith and 50-70-100 units of normal xith (making it's prices really high). And the same for ALL ores. While getting 100 units of purified iron and 100 units of purified carbon (to make high grade steel) wouldn't be very hard, requiring 1000 premium units of each, doing the same for denic, pyronic or even van azek would be MUUUUCH harder. And thus if you were to kill a queen and she would drop 3 or 4 untis of a random purified ore (not xith, we don't wana change ctc, or change what ctc carries...), well then you would be getting really valuable stuff. The levi could drop a total of 20 units of purified stuff, or 50 w/e.
The important thing is that the said ore could be obtained by three ways, spending lots of cash at a station, mining for a pretty long time, or killing big baddies. (the amounts an' all should be balanced). And since stations will no longer "magically" produce stuff then the first way while the easiest couldn't be always used.
And then what do you do with all the purified stuff? Well you get to make weapons and (maybe, hopefully) ships that are MARGINALLY better. But everyone in PvP knows just how much "Marginally" matters.
My favorite idea is that hive bots would drop rare(ish) stuff sometimes. Like the equivalent of purified xith. For example you could make that each purified xith requires about 10 units of premium xith and 50-70-100 units of normal xith (making it's prices really high). And the same for ALL ores. While getting 100 units of purified iron and 100 units of purified carbon (to make high grade steel) wouldn't be very hard, requiring 1000 premium units of each, doing the same for denic, pyronic or even van azek would be MUUUUCH harder. And thus if you were to kill a queen and she would drop 3 or 4 untis of a random purified ore (not xith, we don't wana change ctc, or change what ctc carries...), well then you would be getting really valuable stuff. The levi could drop a total of 20 units of purified stuff, or 50 w/e.
The important thing is that the said ore could be obtained by three ways, spending lots of cash at a station, mining for a pretty long time, or killing big baddies. (the amounts an' all should be balanced). And since stations will no longer "magically" produce stuff then the first way while the easiest couldn't be always used.
And then what do you do with all the purified stuff? Well you get to make weapons and (maybe, hopefully) ships that are MARGINALLY better. But everyone in PvP knows just how much "Marginally" matters.
"
What can the world, or any nation in it, hope for if no turning is found on this dread road?
The worst to be feared and the best to be expected can be simply stated.
The worst is atomic war.
The best would be this: a life of perpetual fear and tension; a burden of arms draining the wealthand the labor of all peoples; a wasting of strength that defies the American system or the Soviet system or any system to achieve true abundance and happiness for the peoples of this earth.
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
This world in arms in not spending money alone.
It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.
The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities.
It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population.
It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals.
It is some 50 miles of concrete highway.
We pay for a single fighter with a half million bushels of wheat.
We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people.
This, I repeat, is the best way of life to be found on the road the world has been taking.
This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.
These plain and cruel truths define the peril and point the hope that come with this spring of 1953.
This is one of those times in the affairs of nations when the gravest choices must be made, if there is to be a turning toward a just and lasting peace.
It is a moment that calls upon the governments of the world to speak their intentions with simplicity and with honest.
It calls upon them to answer the questions that stirs the hearts of all sane men: is there no other way the world may live?
"
-- dwight david eisenhower. commander allied forces europe, world war ii. president of the united states of america, 1953*1961
What can the world, or any nation in it, hope for if no turning is found on this dread road?
The worst to be feared and the best to be expected can be simply stated.
The worst is atomic war.
The best would be this: a life of perpetual fear and tension; a burden of arms draining the wealthand the labor of all peoples; a wasting of strength that defies the American system or the Soviet system or any system to achieve true abundance and happiness for the peoples of this earth.
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
This world in arms in not spending money alone.
It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children.
The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities.
It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population.
It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals.
It is some 50 miles of concrete highway.
We pay for a single fighter with a half million bushels of wheat.
We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people.
This, I repeat, is the best way of life to be found on the road the world has been taking.
This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.
These plain and cruel truths define the peril and point the hope that come with this spring of 1953.
This is one of those times in the affairs of nations when the gravest choices must be made, if there is to be a turning toward a just and lasting peace.
It is a moment that calls upon the governments of the world to speak their intentions with simplicity and with honest.
It calls upon them to answer the questions that stirs the hearts of all sane men: is there no other way the world may live?
"
-- dwight david eisenhower. commander allied forces europe, world war ii. president of the united states of america, 1953*1961
Whoa! Let's not dump so much monkey feces on Racer all at once!
I was about to say pretty much what you just said, Mynt. Oh, and you're welcome to a job at my station any time, by the way. :)
"Why should someone who can spend longer in VO than someone else be able to make things that improve their weapons and ships etc.?"
Beleive it or not, Racer, but I agree with you. This is just what my system for crafting is designed to avoid, as well as create more roles to fill in this ROLE-playing game. I don't want people to be able to get their "Crafting" skill level to 1000 simply by clicking a button constantly for hours, to get a benefit not available to people who don't want to click a button over and over for days. This system more mirrors real life. In real life, I will probably never have the skills necessary to build a car from scratch by myself. Nor can I take two tons of scrap metal and the ingredients for plastic, etc. to a factory and say, I want this to be a Nash Metropolitan by next week, and be taken seriously.
The system I've proposed will allow everyone the same access to everything. If you want to fight, then fight, and buy your stuff at whatever station sells it. The "crafting," as far as your concerned, goes on behind the scenes. Most people, when they buy a car, have no clue what went into making that car (or how to maintain it). If you want to be in on the "crafting," build a station and get into the supply and demand and marketing and commerce of it all.
This system isn't really "crafting" at all, since nothing new is invented. I'll say again, the only good solution I can think of for now is to "invent" stuff in this forum, and when something good is suggested, a dev will put it in game wherever it is appropriate to have it "invented" in-game. Then it's a prototype, and gets into general circulation after a mission tree is completed to test and implement it. You don't have to do the missions, I'm sure there's someone who wants to and will do them well. Just as you don't have to do the research to develop the new super fast computers in order to buy and use one, you don't have to do the "research" to develop new ships and addons in the game to be able to buy and use them in game.
I was about to say pretty much what you just said, Mynt. Oh, and you're welcome to a job at my station any time, by the way. :)
"Why should someone who can spend longer in VO than someone else be able to make things that improve their weapons and ships etc.?"
Beleive it or not, Racer, but I agree with you. This is just what my system for crafting is designed to avoid, as well as create more roles to fill in this ROLE-playing game. I don't want people to be able to get their "Crafting" skill level to 1000 simply by clicking a button constantly for hours, to get a benefit not available to people who don't want to click a button over and over for days. This system more mirrors real life. In real life, I will probably never have the skills necessary to build a car from scratch by myself. Nor can I take two tons of scrap metal and the ingredients for plastic, etc. to a factory and say, I want this to be a Nash Metropolitan by next week, and be taken seriously.
The system I've proposed will allow everyone the same access to everything. If you want to fight, then fight, and buy your stuff at whatever station sells it. The "crafting," as far as your concerned, goes on behind the scenes. Most people, when they buy a car, have no clue what went into making that car (or how to maintain it). If you want to be in on the "crafting," build a station and get into the supply and demand and marketing and commerce of it all.
This system isn't really "crafting" at all, since nothing new is invented. I'll say again, the only good solution I can think of for now is to "invent" stuff in this forum, and when something good is suggested, a dev will put it in game wherever it is appropriate to have it "invented" in-game. Then it's a prototype, and gets into general circulation after a mission tree is completed to test and implement it. You don't have to do the missions, I'm sure there's someone who wants to and will do them well. Just as you don't have to do the research to develop the new super fast computers in order to buy and use one, you don't have to do the "research" to develop new ships and addons in the game to be able to buy and use them in game.
Actually, that's exactly what I was getting at. Owning a station, you have to decide what your market niche is, and buy the assembly plants that will build the right stuff, since not all plants would be capable of building the same class of items, and it would cost time and manpower (and therefore money to pay your station "workers") to reconfigure your assembly line.