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I do not think anyone suggested that all capital ships be prohibitively expensive, certainly not in the 100mc + category...
I know ship prices are going to be rising significantly, but not even the most pessemistic guesses place a regular Behemoth at more than 110-150c. As such, I cannot see a Behemoth Heavy reasonably costing more than 300c. Following that, I cannot reasonably see even a (basic) Trident costing more than 3-4mc. I could see an upgraded version whose turret cover can actually shoot things costing ~6mc (and this would still leave the HAC and Connie in the 50mc+ category). As such, it should be reasonable for newbies to get a capital ship within a month or two; that is still a LONG time to be playing a game where essentially your character is not acting like you want them to.
I know that a lot of current players have a LOT of money, but in all reality that kind of credit production/time will likely be gone from the game once the dynamic economy is in place, unless (possibly) one has a Constellation.
I know ship prices are going to be rising significantly, but not even the most pessemistic guesses place a regular Behemoth at more than 110-150c. As such, I cannot see a Behemoth Heavy reasonably costing more than 300c. Following that, I cannot reasonably see even a (basic) Trident costing more than 3-4mc. I could see an upgraded version whose turret cover can actually shoot things costing ~6mc (and this would still leave the HAC and Connie in the 50mc+ category). As such, it should be reasonable for newbies to get a capital ship within a month or two; that is still a LONG time to be playing a game where essentially your character is not acting like you want them to.
I know that a lot of current players have a LOT of money, but in all reality that kind of credit production/time will likely be gone from the game once the dynamic economy is in place, unless (possibly) one has a Constellation.
This is one reason why I hope they continue to introduce more mid-range ship types. Make available some smaller but worthwhile ships that are accessible earlier on, and allow players to continue to work up to the big ships. I would have no problem flying around a small to mid-sized ship for quite a long time (provided this game has enough for me to do in that ship), before I even get the chance at the giant ships. It just means that there's always a next level to look forward to and to work for. Also, the more there's a difference in power between a big ship and a small ship, the more cooperation there will be (assuming a larger player base, of course). If it takes a dozen mid to small capital/heavy fighter ships to take down a veteran's HAC, then several players are more likely to band together to take it down. Also, these players (assuming multi-player cap ship crews) are more likely to pool money to buy one.
personally i think buying capitle ships isn't what should be prohibitive, but rather maintaining them.
it should cost credits and/or various commodities to repair damaged captile ships. Then add to that replacment costs for ammunition and lost fighters/support ships, and a salary for the crew (be the PCs hired as gunners or escorts or NPCs or even an abstract crew cost), and you have a built in increase in operationall cost based on the size of the ship.
Now one side effect of this is that transport and mining ships will tend to be more self sufficent than warships, as they will have lower operating costs and higher profits.
in the long run i'd like to see the most common ships in the universe be the size of Behemoths (be they cargo ships or gunships) with fighters and smaller transports used by combat speciallists and low level players respectively, and larger capitle ships belonging mostly to guilds with the size and philosophy of the guild determining the size and number of ships.
it should cost credits and/or various commodities to repair damaged captile ships. Then add to that replacment costs for ammunition and lost fighters/support ships, and a salary for the crew (be the PCs hired as gunners or escorts or NPCs or even an abstract crew cost), and you have a built in increase in operationall cost based on the size of the ship.
Now one side effect of this is that transport and mining ships will tend to be more self sufficent than warships, as they will have lower operating costs and higher profits.
in the long run i'd like to see the most common ships in the universe be the size of Behemoths (be they cargo ships or gunships) with fighters and smaller transports used by combat speciallists and low level players respectively, and larger capitle ships belonging mostly to guilds with the size and philosophy of the guild determining the size and number of ships.
Yes and No, Lord Q. Nothing should be terribly prohibitive, because that is more frustrating than fun. Also, although I mostly agree with your eventual ship distribution, I do not want even large capital ships to actually belong to a guild - just mostly to characters that happen to belong to guilds (though perhaps this is what you mean by "mostly to guilds"? I agree with everything else though.
The best way to do the guild ownership thing is to have the guild appoint a captain to the ship. If the captain abuses his powers with the ship, a new captain can be appointed and the "ownership" of the ship passes to him/her.
The reason it should be very hard to get the best capital ships is because it leaves a goal in the game. It's no fun to get to the very best stuff right off and have nowhere to go. The possibility of cap ship ownership will get people to the game, the path to get such a ship will keep people (also the community, as it does now).
The reason it should be very hard to get the best capital ships is because it leaves a goal in the game. It's no fun to get to the very best stuff right off and have nowhere to go. The possibility of cap ship ownership will get people to the game, the path to get such a ship will keep people (also the community, as it does now).
I disagree, Professor Chaos. Incorporating very cool, very hard to get objects is part of what makes a game ADDICTIVE. What keeps people around is content to explore. E.G. WoW has TONS of content now in terms of instances and areas, and they keep adding more -- this is why even non-addicted people are happy to stay. If WoW were to suddenly change its stance on end-game loot drops so that EVERY character who participated in an instance raid received the same loot, I do not think there would be an appreciable decrease in its user-base. The only people who would leave because of such a change would be people who were playing the game so that their characters would be better than those of other people, likely because they cannot achieve such prominence IRL; these are also more likely to be the trouble-making kind of people who like newb-hunting, because they must SHOW other people that they are better (by killing your character with theirs).
VO can attract plenty of customers just by being a good game, it can keep them by providing an immersive and expanding universe, and I believe that this can be accomplished without relying on (or even employing) extraordinarily hard to get objects. Also, by managing the penalty for losing an object, one can manage both how much accomplishment someone feels when their character acquires said object AND how upset someone gets when they lose that object.
VO can attract plenty of customers just by being a good game, it can keep them by providing an immersive and expanding universe, and I believe that this can be accomplished without relying on (or even employing) extraordinarily hard to get objects. Also, by managing the penalty for losing an object, one can manage both how much accomplishment someone feels when their character acquires said object AND how upset someone gets when they lose that object.
That is a crazy article. I don't think it needs to be said (but I'll say it anyway) that it was the player's fault he stabbed the other guy, not the game's.
Why can't there be both expansive content and items to work for? I'm just thinking that in the case of capital ships, it's just not realistic or rewarding to get one easily right away. You can explore all of the expanding universe in any ship, and even escort a capital ship where it's going. I understand your point about players asserting their "authority" because they are insecure in real life, but no system will get around that. The solution is for other players to band together and attack an abusive player, and that's only worthwhile if death actually means something (like, if capital ships are expensive and not easy to get, so he has to make sure he can afford another one).
This game doesn't need a unique item that requires four trillion hours of gameplay and half the money in the game to acquire but makes you able to steal the souls of all other players in the game, rendering you invincible; but significant effort to acquire capital ships is reasonable. I think that the dynamic economy will keep prices at a reasonable level, I believe in the free market. Artificially high prices=bad. Naturally high prices=good, balances supply and demand.
Why can't there be both expansive content and items to work for? I'm just thinking that in the case of capital ships, it's just not realistic or rewarding to get one easily right away. You can explore all of the expanding universe in any ship, and even escort a capital ship where it's going. I understand your point about players asserting their "authority" because they are insecure in real life, but no system will get around that. The solution is for other players to band together and attack an abusive player, and that's only worthwhile if death actually means something (like, if capital ships are expensive and not easy to get, so he has to make sure he can afford another one).
This game doesn't need a unique item that requires four trillion hours of gameplay and half the money in the game to acquire but makes you able to steal the souls of all other players in the game, rendering you invincible; but significant effort to acquire capital ships is reasonable. I think that the dynamic economy will keep prices at a reasonable level, I believe in the free market. Artificially high prices=bad. Naturally high prices=good, balances supply and demand.
"it was the player's fault he stabbed the other guy, not the game's"
Perhaps, but the point I wanted to make with the article is that IF the stupid sword could have been replaced with even an hour of gameplay, there would be no reason for anyone to get so upset over losing said item (and of course it would have never sold for about $1000 USD). Everything is worth no more and no less than what someone will pay for it, and people are rightly very upset about having $1000 stolen from them; someone may still be upset about have $20 stolen (implying 3-4 hours to replace), but it is likely more on the principle of having ones belongings violated than because the property loss was significantly damaging to their lives.
"Why can't there be both expansive content and items to work for?"
There can, but I am interested in how hard certain items will be to both acquire and replace.
"in the case of capital ships, it's just not realistic or rewarding to get one easily right away."
Please define "easily", "right away", and "significant effort", Professor Chaos. Also, the issue is not only how hard something is to acquire initially, but also how hard it is to replace. I have already granted that even a Trident will take at least 2-3 months to initially acquire. It already takes about 100 hours (about 10 weeks of reasonable play) to get most of the end-level equipment in-game (the IDF, SCP, AAPs, and FCs); is it not reasonable for someone to get a 4-turret Trident in at most that much time instead of getting access to BOTH highest level combat fightercraft AND great equipment for them?
"I believe in the free market. Artificially high prices=bad. Naturally high prices=good, balances supply and demand."
Professor Chaos, remember this is a game, thus high prices are merely a representation of a restricted supply - more people wanting an item than the game is providing.
Perhaps, but the point I wanted to make with the article is that IF the stupid sword could have been replaced with even an hour of gameplay, there would be no reason for anyone to get so upset over losing said item (and of course it would have never sold for about $1000 USD). Everything is worth no more and no less than what someone will pay for it, and people are rightly very upset about having $1000 stolen from them; someone may still be upset about have $20 stolen (implying 3-4 hours to replace), but it is likely more on the principle of having ones belongings violated than because the property loss was significantly damaging to their lives.
"Why can't there be both expansive content and items to work for?"
There can, but I am interested in how hard certain items will be to both acquire and replace.
"in the case of capital ships, it's just not realistic or rewarding to get one easily right away."
Please define "easily", "right away", and "significant effort", Professor Chaos. Also, the issue is not only how hard something is to acquire initially, but also how hard it is to replace. I have already granted that even a Trident will take at least 2-3 months to initially acquire. It already takes about 100 hours (about 10 weeks of reasonable play) to get most of the end-level equipment in-game (the IDF, SCP, AAPs, and FCs); is it not reasonable for someone to get a 4-turret Trident in at most that much time instead of getting access to BOTH highest level combat fightercraft AND great equipment for them?
"I believe in the free market. Artificially high prices=bad. Naturally high prices=good, balances supply and demand."
Professor Chaos, remember this is a game, thus high prices are merely a representation of a restricted supply - more people wanting an item than the game is providing.
I have 1 problem about capships that attacked me the other day (the problem not the capship).
Imagine I m the proud owner of a brand new Connie. I take that Connie and load it with 1000 textile form station A and take it to staion B, only 1 WH away, for a profit of... um 600c/cu (so thats 600 000 per trip) on my third trip when I jump to the WH I see an EVIL SERCO scumbag in his teradon only 1500m away, between me and my WH. Now what I have to do is turn heads and jump back to a staion right?
If so then destroying a connie will be almost impossible, (unless it's really nerfed) because unlike NPC I will be smart and jump to a station ASAP.
But what if I jump to a station, and the EVIL SERCO scumbags follow me with, oh, 3 teradons? The station guards will REALLY not be able to protect me will they?
So the problem is a)either killing traders in cap ships is gona be night impossible (which I don't really mind, since I prefer trading to killing) or b) once you got 'Rats on your tail, you're cooked.
The same applies to a trident, because I think it's actually fast enough to outrun a Teradon (hard to say if it should be so or not).
Oh and BTW 50mc for a Connie is a bit harsh no? 50mc is A LOT! Because even considering a tarde route with only 1 jump where ou make 1000/cu profit one way and 500/cu the other way would take you 34 round trip to cover the cost of the connie. With a connie that is bound to take LOTSA time, I'd say maybe 2 hours, maybe 3. So if buying me a capitalship will force me to make round trips for 3 hours just to repay it's value... And imagine if you get killed?
Imagine I m the proud owner of a brand new Connie. I take that Connie and load it with 1000 textile form station A and take it to staion B, only 1 WH away, for a profit of... um 600c/cu (so thats 600 000 per trip) on my third trip when I jump to the WH I see an EVIL SERCO scumbag in his teradon only 1500m away, between me and my WH. Now what I have to do is turn heads and jump back to a staion right?
If so then destroying a connie will be almost impossible, (unless it's really nerfed) because unlike NPC I will be smart and jump to a station ASAP.
But what if I jump to a station, and the EVIL SERCO scumbags follow me with, oh, 3 teradons? The station guards will REALLY not be able to protect me will they?
So the problem is a)either killing traders in cap ships is gona be night impossible (which I don't really mind, since I prefer trading to killing) or b) once you got 'Rats on your tail, you're cooked.
The same applies to a trident, because I think it's actually fast enough to outrun a Teradon (hard to say if it should be so or not).
Oh and BTW 50mc for a Connie is a bit harsh no? 50mc is A LOT! Because even considering a tarde route with only 1 jump where ou make 1000/cu profit one way and 500/cu the other way would take you 34 round trip to cover the cost of the connie. With a connie that is bound to take LOTSA time, I'd say maybe 2 hours, maybe 3. So if buying me a capitalship will force me to make round trips for 3 hours just to repay it's value... And imagine if you get killed?
LostCommander,
yes, actually i had meant that the reasorces of a guild would tend to be needed to purchass and maintaine a larger capitle ship (say a HAC or Constelation), rather than that only guilds should be able to purchass them. So some guilds might prefer to have several members own and operate capitle ships (with the guild providing things like free fighter escorts, money for repairs, etc) or they may prefer to act as the crew of a larger ship (think battlestar Galactica), with the guild's commander owning the capitle ship and the other members operating turrets and fighters as needed, but all contributing to the ship's overall upkeep.
i never said it should be impossable to own and operate your HAC by yourself, just that doing so would require a lot of work, and should be difficult enough that most (possably all) players wouldn't find it worthwhile.
personally i'd like to have my own smallish, capitle ship. maybe something comperable in size to a Trident.
Zed1985,
obviously if players can purchass capitle ships, the NPC military and strike forcees will have to have similar vessels in their arsinal.
in the past i've recomended transforming the SF into something similar to the new hive, where a large but finite number battlegroups patrole nation space, and dispatch portions of their force to deal with any lawbreakers, with the size of the force being based on the size and type of local battlegroups as well as the standing of the target. So firing on a Bus neas Serco Prime may get a vulture pilot attacked by a HAC and it's fighter force, whereas a Teradon, that tries to enter enemy space may get lucky and only have to dipatch a squadren of Behemoth-gunships, because they were the only SF forces available at the time.
As for your example regarding a Constelation, i disagree 3 houres to pay back the cost of a Constelation isn't long enough. A guild of 6 people could get a loan, buy a constelation, and in 9 houres have one constelation each plus one in the fleet yard. an i shudder to think of the amount of money they could then make or effect on the ecconamy 6 constelations woorking towards the same goals could have.
yes, actually i had meant that the reasorces of a guild would tend to be needed to purchass and maintaine a larger capitle ship (say a HAC or Constelation), rather than that only guilds should be able to purchass them. So some guilds might prefer to have several members own and operate capitle ships (with the guild providing things like free fighter escorts, money for repairs, etc) or they may prefer to act as the crew of a larger ship (think battlestar Galactica), with the guild's commander owning the capitle ship and the other members operating turrets and fighters as needed, but all contributing to the ship's overall upkeep.
i never said it should be impossable to own and operate your HAC by yourself, just that doing so would require a lot of work, and should be difficult enough that most (possably all) players wouldn't find it worthwhile.
personally i'd like to have my own smallish, capitle ship. maybe something comperable in size to a Trident.
Zed1985,
obviously if players can purchass capitle ships, the NPC military and strike forcees will have to have similar vessels in their arsinal.
in the past i've recomended transforming the SF into something similar to the new hive, where a large but finite number battlegroups patrole nation space, and dispatch portions of their force to deal with any lawbreakers, with the size of the force being based on the size and type of local battlegroups as well as the standing of the target. So firing on a Bus neas Serco Prime may get a vulture pilot attacked by a HAC and it's fighter force, whereas a Teradon, that tries to enter enemy space may get lucky and only have to dipatch a squadren of Behemoth-gunships, because they were the only SF forces available at the time.
As for your example regarding a Constelation, i disagree 3 houres to pay back the cost of a Constelation isn't long enough. A guild of 6 people could get a loan, buy a constelation, and in 9 houres have one constelation each plus one in the fleet yard. an i shudder to think of the amount of money they could then make or effect on the ecconamy 6 constelations woorking towards the same goals could have.
In order for guild ownership of a capital ship to work, a method would have to be in place to change pilots. Maybe if, when whoever is in charge of the guild buys the ship, he sets a changeable password for the ship and tells the password to the pilot. If the pilot changes, the new pilot gets the password, or the password is changed and given to the new pilot. To man a turret or other system in the ship, the server would only have to verify (automatically) that you are a member of the guild that owns the ship. Otherwise, you must ask permission to dock.
Zed1985 - Since the Connie is more than 10 times the size of a Trident, I think it is VERY reasonable to price it at 50mc+ (if a Trident is 3-6mc). However, that would also imply that its cargo capacity (currently 1000 because John had to throw in a number) will be fixed appropriately to 2200-3000cu (as has already been noted by John, for when he does capship balancing). Additionally, I usually do trade runs for 2000c+/cu 1-way, which would drastically cut down on the number of trips a Connie would have to make to pay for itself. This, however, is likely to change (I have no idea which direction) after the dynamic economy is fully in place, so actual prices will have to wait for that. Also, I think that ~5 hours to pay off the value of something as large as a Connie is quite reasonable. If you are concerned about your capship getting boomed - don't take it where that might happen, and/or get a good escort (like a teradon and a fighter squadron).
I think it is safe to say that when players can get capships, the SF and SG will also acquire capships (and SF/SG capships are likely to have the same kinds of buffs that regular SF/SG have over regular ships).
Lord Q - I wouldn't shudder at 6 Connies at all. They would most likely run out of things to transport long before they could get near your feared big impact (and with dynamic pricing, there will likely not be even 1k/cu trade possiblities without traversing greyspace or the entire stretch of the Itani Nation.
Professor Chaos - It sounds like the owner of a capship will be able to designate who may and who may not board (may not being default) and that "pilot/navigator" will simply be the top position among the turrets (i.e. anyone in the ship may be the driver if no one else currently is).
I think it is safe to say that when players can get capships, the SF and SG will also acquire capships (and SF/SG capships are likely to have the same kinds of buffs that regular SF/SG have over regular ships).
Lord Q - I wouldn't shudder at 6 Connies at all. They would most likely run out of things to transport long before they could get near your feared big impact (and with dynamic pricing, there will likely not be even 1k/cu trade possiblities without traversing greyspace or the entire stretch of the Itani Nation.
Professor Chaos - It sounds like the owner of a capship will be able to designate who may and who may not board (may not being default) and that "pilot/navigator" will simply be the top position among the turrets (i.e. anyone in the ship may be the driver if no one else currently is).
so you don't see 6 people being able to buy all of a station's production capacity as a problem? i'd actually say that's worse than the sort of impact i was concerned about.
anyway, i was more concerened about the fact that 6 people could gain that level of influence in 2 to 4 days if they wanted. imagin what the larger trade guilds could do.
anyway, i was more concerened about the fact that 6 people could gain that level of influence in 2 to 4 days if they wanted. imagin what the larger trade guilds could do.
Lord Q: Your concern may be solved with piracy. Anyone who begins to gain influence like that will become an attractive target for a pirate, and other traders may even hire pirates to take them on.
Also, when players are able to buy/build/capture their own stations, and more systems are added to the game, this will be less of a problem. If a fleet of six capital ships are able to make that much profit, then that to me is a sign of a good economy that can afford to expand and build more stations. If all six of those players buy stations, and more and more of their time is consumed with station tasks, not only will there be more stations to trade with, but those old profitable trade routes may open up.
LostCommander: That sounds like a good system. Where did you read/hear that? I think that in addition to that, a mechanism would still be necessary to have true guild ownership in the event that a guild chooses a new leader and doesn't want the old guy to run off with the ship.
Also, when players are able to buy/build/capture their own stations, and more systems are added to the game, this will be less of a problem. If a fleet of six capital ships are able to make that much profit, then that to me is a sign of a good economy that can afford to expand and build more stations. If all six of those players buy stations, and more and more of their time is consumed with station tasks, not only will there be more stations to trade with, but those old profitable trade routes may open up.
LostCommander: That sounds like a good system. Where did you read/hear that? I think that in addition to that, a mechanism would still be necessary to have true guild ownership in the event that a guild chooses a new leader and doesn't want the old guy to run off with the ship.
Lord Q, there is NO WAY even a large guild could purchase all of a planet-station's production -- ever. Besides, where did you ever get that idea? Also, what influence are you talking about; do you mean the ability to move all of a small faction's goods around in a timely manner??? I'm sorry, but I am completely lost by your last post...
Professor Chaos - This game does not have the development manpower to implement automated protections for everything (possibly not even most things) 3v1L a player can do; we will have to police ourselves for the most part for the forseeable future.
Professor Chaos - This game does not have the development manpower to implement automated protections for everything (possibly not even most things) 3v1L a player can do; we will have to police ourselves for the most part for the forseeable future.
LostCommander,
i got that idea from when yo said:
>Lord Q - I wouldn't shudder at 6 Connies at all. They would most
>likely run out of things to transport long before they could get
>near your feared big impact
if you've "run out of things to transport" that means you can transport more than your supplier can produce.
if however you meant that the price of all goods would eventually go down to where it was no longer porfitable to sell them. that's exactly the sort of impact i was concerned about.
6 people should not be able to crash the econnamy of a target station after 9 houres work. It should take much more manpower than that to establish such extreem ecconomic power. either by making it more difficult for that 6 people to own and operate their constelations or by scaling the econamy such that 6 connies isn't going to swing it that drasticly.
Professor Chaos,
Yes piracy may help, but if ships like the Constelation are too common it will actually reduce piracy, as prices for goods will be too low for the pirates to make a decent profit.
basicly what i'm saying is ships that are as large as the Constelation should be difficult enough to own and operate that most lone traders can't aford them, and only larger trading guilds can afford to keep more than one or two on the payrole.
So in the 6 man guild example, the Commander might own a Constelation, and the other members own transport ships similar in size to the Trident (maybe a bit bigger). However a larger guild (or a guild that has been established for a longer time) may have a larger number of Constelations on payrole.
i got that idea from when yo said:
>Lord Q - I wouldn't shudder at 6 Connies at all. They would most
>likely run out of things to transport long before they could get
>near your feared big impact
if you've "run out of things to transport" that means you can transport more than your supplier can produce.
if however you meant that the price of all goods would eventually go down to where it was no longer porfitable to sell them. that's exactly the sort of impact i was concerned about.
6 people should not be able to crash the econnamy of a target station after 9 houres work. It should take much more manpower than that to establish such extreem ecconomic power. either by making it more difficult for that 6 people to own and operate their constelations or by scaling the econamy such that 6 connies isn't going to swing it that drasticly.
Professor Chaos,
Yes piracy may help, but if ships like the Constelation are too common it will actually reduce piracy, as prices for goods will be too low for the pirates to make a decent profit.
basicly what i'm saying is ships that are as large as the Constelation should be difficult enough to own and operate that most lone traders can't aford them, and only larger trading guilds can afford to keep more than one or two on the payrole.
So in the 6 man guild example, the Commander might own a Constelation, and the other members own transport ships similar in size to the Trident (maybe a bit bigger). However a larger guild (or a guild that has been established for a longer time) may have a larger number of Constelations on payrole.
Mkay, lemme rephrase that then - they would run out of things to transport for more than 5c/cu profit.
Pirates already don't pirate for profit - they do it to blow things up.
Also, Constellation levels 5/5/5/15/10 will keep a lot of people from getting there quickly.
Pirates already don't pirate for profit - they do it to blow things up.
Also, Constellation levels 5/5/5/15/10 will keep a lot of people from getting there quickly.
>Pirates already don't pirate for profit - they do it to blow
>things up.
true, but that's less likely to hapen if they have to put their own capitle ship on the line to do it.
>things up.
true, but that's less likely to hapen if they have to put their own capitle ship on the line to do it.
A single person can currently take down a Constellation; a pirate Teradon would FREAKING OWN the fat duck... there would be no line on which to put the Teradon! Pirates will likely either continue to not use cappies (except to swoop in and take the cargo?) and mostly rely on "fees" and "tributes" as they do now, or they will have their own little navy and wouldn't really be facing much (unless they were stoopid pierats...).
If there's a good black market and the possibility of capturing ships, then as I pirate I might capture ships to sell them to people at less than the cost for a station to build one, making more profit there than by selling the goods (assuming as some of you do that the prices will ALL become immediately unprofitable, I doubt it). The reason pirates just do it to blow stuff up is because there's no way to board ships, so it's all role-play, no real pirating.