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Here's something I just thought up:
Mjolnir Ramming Device
Class: Anti-Capital Capital Weapon (CvC)
Port: Large Capital Port/High Power Electronics Port
Armor Damage: relative to ship mass and velocity
Structural Damage: relative to ship mass and velocity
Range: Contact
Mass: Medium
Energy Consumption: 25% of power cell per second
Description: Since the days of galleys on old Terra I, ramming was the most basic of attack maneuvers known to mobile craft. The Serco Dominion armories revived the ideology of attacking headfirst with great speed.
The damage calculation formula goes like this, using the HAC's mass (rough estimate using the relative scale and the Behemoth's mass, HAC = 20 times as long, estimated 40 times as heavy) and length as base values, as well as the Railgun Mk1 for energy/damage relations:
dmgdealt = 6.5e-3 x mship x vrel2, ship mass in metric tons [t], velocity in meters per second [m/s].
Now, the Mjolnir requires specialized ships that can take the enormous stress that results from a collision at full ramming speed. Furthermore, those capships that can ram will be able to coast up to 80 m/s, but at a malus of having half the lateral and rotational maneuverability.
Mjolnir Ramming Device
Class: Anti-Capital Capital Weapon (CvC)
Port: Large Capital Port/High Power Electronics Port
Armor Damage: relative to ship mass and velocity
Structural Damage: relative to ship mass and velocity
Range: Contact
Mass: Medium
Energy Consumption: 25% of power cell per second
Description: Since the days of galleys on old Terra I, ramming was the most basic of attack maneuvers known to mobile craft. The Serco Dominion armories revived the ideology of attacking headfirst with great speed.
The damage calculation formula goes like this, using the HAC's mass (rough estimate using the relative scale and the Behemoth's mass, HAC = 20 times as long, estimated 40 times as heavy) and length as base values, as well as the Railgun Mk1 for energy/damage relations:
dmgdealt = 6.5e-3 x mship x vrel2, ship mass in metric tons [t], velocity in meters per second [m/s].
Now, the Mjolnir requires specialized ships that can take the enormous stress that results from a collision at full ramming speed. Furthermore, those capships that can ram will be able to coast up to 80 m/s, but at a malus of having half the lateral and rotational maneuverability.
>Wow, you guys fail and lose. We can't have an Excalibur torpedo
>because we already have an Avalon torpedo. Har har.
so it's just an acident then that your Excaliber Beam Cannon is almost exactly like the main gun on the Excaliber from Babylon 5?
anyway,
i think the bigest thing capitle ships need with regards to weapons is a signifigant reworking of their weapon's ranges, and limits (that's hight limits, but still limits) on how many fighters/cargo they can carry.
then you can try to add things like crew and sectionall damage.
>because we already have an Avalon torpedo. Har har.
so it's just an acident then that your Excaliber Beam Cannon is almost exactly like the main gun on the Excaliber from Babylon 5?
anyway,
i think the bigest thing capitle ships need with regards to weapons is a signifigant reworking of their weapon's ranges, and limits (that's hight limits, but still limits) on how many fighters/cargo they can carry.
then you can try to add things like crew and sectionall damage.
Kinetic Destabilization Missiles
Class: Anti-Capital Countermeasure (CvC)
Port: Large Capital Turret
Damage: 300
Piercing factor: 0%
Splash: 10m
Refire Rate: .45 seconds
Ammo: 50
Mass: Light
Detonation: Contact
Maneuverability: Low
Velocity: 160m/s
Range: 5km
Force: 7,500N
Description: Hailing from the same minds that invented the concussion mine, KDM's are specifically designed to throw off the aim of an enemy capital ship. Always striking their target at oblique angles, they are the perfect deterrent to fixed-placement ship to ship weaponry.
'Valor' Point Defense System
Class: General Countermeasure (CvC, FvC)
Port: Small Capital Turret
Damage: 10
Piercing factor: 0%
Splash: 1m
Refire Rate: .75 seconds
Ammo: 550
Mass: Light
Detonation: Contact
Maneuverability: Very High
Velocity: 160m/s
Range: 5km
Description: Based on an old technique employed in terrestrial warfare, the Valor PDS fires small missiles to intercept and destroy incoming munitions.
Loiter Missiles
Class: Ship to Ship Missile (CvC)
Port: Large Capital Port
Damage: 100,000
Piercing factor: 4.5%
Splash: 120m
Refire Rate: 10 seconds
Ammo: 8
Mass: Heavy
Detonation: Contact
Maneuverability: Very Low
Engaged Velocity: 160m/s
Idle Velocity: 0m/s
Detection Range: 7km
Range: 10km
Description: One day, a number of bored visiting weapons developers were hanging around the front of a market in Verasi I-5. Taking their offstation clothes as a bad sign, the store's owner promptly had the local prolice force escort them away for loitering. And thus, the missile bearing the same name was born. Awaiting in the shadows like mines, loiter missiles are activated once a plausible target enters their detection range and rush screaming headlong into the hull of their target.
Class: Anti-Capital Countermeasure (CvC)
Port: Large Capital Turret
Damage: 300
Piercing factor: 0%
Splash: 10m
Refire Rate: .45 seconds
Ammo: 50
Mass: Light
Detonation: Contact
Maneuverability: Low
Velocity: 160m/s
Range: 5km
Force: 7,500N
Description: Hailing from the same minds that invented the concussion mine, KDM's are specifically designed to throw off the aim of an enemy capital ship. Always striking their target at oblique angles, they are the perfect deterrent to fixed-placement ship to ship weaponry.
'Valor' Point Defense System
Class: General Countermeasure (CvC, FvC)
Port: Small Capital Turret
Damage: 10
Piercing factor: 0%
Splash: 1m
Refire Rate: .75 seconds
Ammo: 550
Mass: Light
Detonation: Contact
Maneuverability: Very High
Velocity: 160m/s
Range: 5km
Description: Based on an old technique employed in terrestrial warfare, the Valor PDS fires small missiles to intercept and destroy incoming munitions.
Loiter Missiles
Class: Ship to Ship Missile (CvC)
Port: Large Capital Port
Damage: 100,000
Piercing factor: 4.5%
Splash: 120m
Refire Rate: 10 seconds
Ammo: 8
Mass: Heavy
Detonation: Contact
Maneuverability: Very Low
Engaged Velocity: 160m/s
Idle Velocity: 0m/s
Detection Range: 7km
Range: 10km
Description: One day, a number of bored visiting weapons developers were hanging around the front of a market in Verasi I-5. Taking their offstation clothes as a bad sign, the store's owner promptly had the local prolice force escort them away for loitering. And thus, the missile bearing the same name was born. Awaiting in the shadows like mines, loiter missiles are activated once a plausible target enters their detection range and rush screaming headlong into the hull of their target.
This is just the first of 6, but I'm too tired to do the math for the other 5 right now, they'll follow in a later post:
Tomcat 25 mmTurreted Railgun
Class: Capital Anti-Frigate/Anti-Gunboat Turreted Weapon (CvFr/CvG)
Port: Small Capital Turret
Damage: 7500/shot
Armor/Splash Damage: 5000
Structural/Piercing Damage: 2500
Splash: 5 m
Ammunition: 30/turret
Mass: Light
Detonation: Contact
Energy Consumption: 35% of turret cell
Delay: 2 s
Velocity: 300 m/s
Range: 1 km
Auto-targetting: None
Tracking Speed: 7 deg/s
The Tomcat turreted Railgun was developed by Xang Xi Automated Systems, once the use of larger craft became commonplace throughout the known universe. The principle is rather simple, it employs two electrodes to generate a field with which the projectiles are accelerated.
The fun part of the weapon are actually the bullets themselves, if you can call them that. They consist of a Steel casing, housing an U-238 core. Upon impact, the Iron is shed and disperses violently in the immediate vicinity of the impact. The U-238 core then liquifies due to the immense velocity, penetrating the hull, much like MBT shells in the late 20th century.
The large apparatus puts quite a load on the servos that move the weapon, which reduces the turret's tracking speed so that it cannot be used against fighters except by the most experienced gunners.
Tomcat 25 mmTurreted Railgun
Class: Capital Anti-Frigate/Anti-Gunboat Turreted Weapon (CvFr/CvG)
Port: Small Capital Turret
Damage: 7500/shot
Armor/Splash Damage: 5000
Structural/Piercing Damage: 2500
Splash: 5 m
Ammunition: 30/turret
Mass: Light
Detonation: Contact
Energy Consumption: 35% of turret cell
Delay: 2 s
Velocity: 300 m/s
Range: 1 km
Auto-targetting: None
Tracking Speed: 7 deg/s
The Tomcat turreted Railgun was developed by Xang Xi Automated Systems, once the use of larger craft became commonplace throughout the known universe. The principle is rather simple, it employs two electrodes to generate a field with which the projectiles are accelerated.
The fun part of the weapon are actually the bullets themselves, if you can call them that. They consist of a Steel casing, housing an U-238 core. Upon impact, the Iron is shed and disperses violently in the immediate vicinity of the impact. The U-238 core then liquifies due to the immense velocity, penetrating the hull, much like MBT shells in the late 20th century.
The large apparatus puts quite a load on the servos that move the weapon, which reduces the turret's tracking speed so that it cannot be used against fighters except by the most experienced gunners.
Scuba: Loiter missiles are a very cool idea. I like the idea of a missile that is laid like a mine. Maybe there can be two settings: Proximity activation and remote activation.
I also like the idea of a remote-guided missile. It would have long range and high maneuverability, but because so much of it is given to propulsion and guidance, the warhead is relatively small. The benefit is that you're likely to hit your target. If there's any kind of jamming device introduced, maybe it can make the missile sometimes not respond to commands.
Toshiro: Here's one problem I have with a ramming device. We would have to assume that there's some kind of convenient "inertial dampening" device (like in Star Trek). Otherwise, anyone not strapped down in a ship ramming at 80m/s would smash the wall at 80m/s. Even strapped in it would do a lot of damage. Imagine smashing your car (assuming your car is undamaged but stops instantly) into a wall at 180 mph (~80m/s). If you're about gone and want to take the other ship out with you you can try to ram and cause a lot of damage. Ramming sounds like fun, though, I'd do it.
I also like the idea of a remote-guided missile. It would have long range and high maneuverability, but because so much of it is given to propulsion and guidance, the warhead is relatively small. The benefit is that you're likely to hit your target. If there's any kind of jamming device introduced, maybe it can make the missile sometimes not respond to commands.
Toshiro: Here's one problem I have with a ramming device. We would have to assume that there's some kind of convenient "inertial dampening" device (like in Star Trek). Otherwise, anyone not strapped down in a ship ramming at 80m/s would smash the wall at 80m/s. Even strapped in it would do a lot of damage. Imagine smashing your car (assuming your car is undamaged but stops instantly) into a wall at 180 mph (~80m/s). If you're about gone and want to take the other ship out with you you can try to ram and cause a lot of damage. Ramming sounds like fun, though, I'd do it.
>Here's one problem I have with a ramming device. We would have to
>assume that there's some kind of convenient "inertial dampening"
>device (like in Star Trek). Otherwise, anyone not strapped down in
>a ship ramming at 80m/s would smash the wall at 80m/s. Even
>strapped in it would do a lot of damage.
not nesesarily, after all the ship you rammed will alter coarse to some extent as a result of the ram. so the ramming ship wouln't decelerate to 0. depending on the relative masses of the ships involved it could range from jaring but not dangerous (say a constelation ramming a trident) to suacidal (a trident ramming a constelation).
>assume that there's some kind of convenient "inertial dampening"
>device (like in Star Trek). Otherwise, anyone not strapped down in
>a ship ramming at 80m/s would smash the wall at 80m/s. Even
>strapped in it would do a lot of damage.
not nesesarily, after all the ship you rammed will alter coarse to some extent as a result of the ram. so the ramming ship wouln't decelerate to 0. depending on the relative masses of the ships involved it could range from jaring but not dangerous (say a constelation ramming a trident) to suacidal (a trident ramming a constelation).
I understand that, but don't know enough to do the math. The collision would still be bad, especially if you go faster than that (which I think you should be able to do).
Joining this thread late, these are my ideas of what capital ship warfare should be like:
In short:
Similar to naval warfare between early 17th and mid 18th centuries.
Ships
- Ships move and turn very slowly (it should take between 30s and a minute to bring a large ship about).
- Ships have insane amounts of armour, so a typical one on one CvC battle using long range beam weapons takes 15m-30m.
- Using torpedoes at close range should make it possible to take down the enemy ship in 2m-10m, basically in 1-2 successful broadsides.
- Fighters not using torpedoes should not be able to take out a C ship in feasable time scale, unless they are heavily outnumbering the ship so, for one fighter 24 hours of firing, for 20 fighers just over an hour of continuous attack.
- Can not turbo.
- Can not outrun a missile.
Weapons
- Weapons deliver huge amounts of damage but have long recharge times (10s-60s).
- Main CvC weapon is the X-ray cannon, which is basically a beam that lasts 5s or so and moves with the speed of light (think laser beams!!). They should look and sound really powerful, as if firing them just made the lights go out on half the planet.
- Each cannon has its own battery which is drained upon firing.
- At short range torpedoes can be used (so they have a chance of getting through and not getting shot down). Torpedo tubes take minutes to recharge.
- Ships also equipped with short range rapid fire weapons to take down attacking fighters and shoot down inbound missiles/torpedoes.
- Ramming should not be a weapon but a last measure tactic - collision will damage both ships, and when one blows up it will hopefully take the other one out.
Fighter role
- Shoot down attacking fighters (interception)
- Act as torpedo launching platforms (introduce a new prom variant?)
- Target specific sections of the ship at close range
Damage control (optional - as in probably takes too long to develop without adding that much to the game)
- Similar to submarines - each section has its own armour, when it gets breached you get flooding (decompression) which can be fought with limited success (damage control). Once that becomes impossible compartment is lost.
- Damage control should be a task doable by one (player) person from a damage control station.
- When managed well compartments should not be lost very often
- Losing/saving compartment has no effect on hp of the ship - they still get eroded by hits, so a badly managed ship will be defenceless and immobile at 75%hp, and a well managed ship will be fully operational at 2%hp.
- Losing different compartments has various effects on the ship:
* Losing command deck means ship can not be controlled
* Losing power generator deck means ship loses power
* Losing engines means ship can not accelerate
* Losing torpedo compartments means torpedoes can not launch
* Losing docking compartment means ships can not dock
* Losing beam weapon compartments means ship can not shoot weapons in it.
* etc.
In short:
Similar to naval warfare between early 17th and mid 18th centuries.
Ships
- Ships move and turn very slowly (it should take between 30s and a minute to bring a large ship about).
- Ships have insane amounts of armour, so a typical one on one CvC battle using long range beam weapons takes 15m-30m.
- Using torpedoes at close range should make it possible to take down the enemy ship in 2m-10m, basically in 1-2 successful broadsides.
- Fighters not using torpedoes should not be able to take out a C ship in feasable time scale, unless they are heavily outnumbering the ship so, for one fighter 24 hours of firing, for 20 fighers just over an hour of continuous attack.
- Can not turbo.
- Can not outrun a missile.
Weapons
- Weapons deliver huge amounts of damage but have long recharge times (10s-60s).
- Main CvC weapon is the X-ray cannon, which is basically a beam that lasts 5s or so and moves with the speed of light (think laser beams!!). They should look and sound really powerful, as if firing them just made the lights go out on half the planet.
- Each cannon has its own battery which is drained upon firing.
- At short range torpedoes can be used (so they have a chance of getting through and not getting shot down). Torpedo tubes take minutes to recharge.
- Ships also equipped with short range rapid fire weapons to take down attacking fighters and shoot down inbound missiles/torpedoes.
- Ramming should not be a weapon but a last measure tactic - collision will damage both ships, and when one blows up it will hopefully take the other one out.
Fighter role
- Shoot down attacking fighters (interception)
- Act as torpedo launching platforms (introduce a new prom variant?)
- Target specific sections of the ship at close range
Damage control (optional - as in probably takes too long to develop without adding that much to the game)
- Similar to submarines - each section has its own armour, when it gets breached you get flooding (decompression) which can be fought with limited success (damage control). Once that becomes impossible compartment is lost.
- Damage control should be a task doable by one (player) person from a damage control station.
- When managed well compartments should not be lost very often
- Losing/saving compartment has no effect on hp of the ship - they still get eroded by hits, so a badly managed ship will be defenceless and immobile at 75%hp, and a well managed ship will be fully operational at 2%hp.
- Losing different compartments has various effects on the ship:
* Losing command deck means ship can not be controlled
* Losing power generator deck means ship loses power
* Losing engines means ship can not accelerate
* Losing torpedo compartments means torpedoes can not launch
* Losing docking compartment means ships can not dock
* Losing beam weapon compartments means ship can not shoot weapons in it.
* etc.
Here's the sequel to the first one:
Wildcat 50 mm Turreted Railgun
Class: Capital Anti-Frigate/Anti-Gunboat Turreted Weapon (CvFr/CvG)
Port: Medium Capital Turret
Damage: 8500/shot
Armor/Splash Damage: 5900
Structural/Piercing Damage: 2600
Splash: 7.5 m
Ammunition: 30/turret
Mass: Medium
Detonation: Contact
Energy Consumption: 42% of turret cell
Delay: 2.5 s
Velocity: 275 m/s
Range: 1.25 km
Auto-targetting: None
Tracking Speed: 6 deg/s
Hellcat 75 mm Turreted Railgun
Class: Capital Anti-Frigate/Anti-Gunboat Turreted Weapon (CvFr/CvG)
Port: Heavy Capital Turret
Damage: 9500/shot
Armor/Splash Damage: 6200
Structural/Piercing Damage: 3300
Splash: 10 m
Ammunition: 30/turret
Mass: Medium
Detonation: Contact
Energy Consumption: 50% of turret cell
Delay: 3 s
Velocity: 250 m/s
Range: 1.5 km
Auto-targetting: None
Tracking Speed: 5 deg/s
Desc.: See Tomcat.
Cougar 250 mm Fixed Railgun
Class: Capital Anti-Capital Fixed Weapon (CvC)
Port: Medium Capital Weapons Port
Damage: 30000/shot
Armor/Splash Damage: 20000
Structural/Piercing Damage: 10000
Splash: 25 m
Ammunition: 10
Mass: Heavy
Detonation: Contact
Energy Consumption: 50% of capital ship power cell
Delay: 7.5 s
Velocity: 250 m/s
Range: 2 km
Auto-targetting: None
Tiger 500 mm Fixed Railgun
Class: Capital Anti-Capital Fixed Weapon (CvC)
Port: Heavy Capital Weapons Port
Damage: 45000/shot
Armor/Splash Damage: 30000
Structural/Piercing Damage: 15000
Splash: 30 m
Ammunition: 10
Mass: Heavy
Detonation: Contact
Energy Consumption: 55% of capital ship power cell
Delay: 8.375 s
Velocity: 225 m/s
Range: 2.5 km
Auto-targetting: None
Lion 750 mm Fixed Railgun
Class: Capital Anti-Capital Fixed Weapon (CvC)
Port: Medium Capital Weapons Port
Damage: 60000/shot
Armor/Splash Damage: 40000
Structural/Piercing Damage: 20000
Splash: 35 m
Ammunition: 10
Mass: Very Heavy
Detonation: Contact
Energy Consumption: 60% of capital ship power cell
Delay: 10 s
Velocity: 200 m/s
Range: 3 km
Auto-targetting: None
Description: There are few more decisive ways of ending an argument than with a mass driver that propels a projectile of almost 200kg (for the Cougar) at speeds faster than any ship can travel. The devastating power of the weapon are only checked by its outrageous energy consumption and its mediocre refire rate. Concentrated fire of more than a few of these harbingers of armageddon usually reduce the focal point to finely ground powder, free to drift through space at its own leisure.
Basically, a rail gun for cap ships. Large, heavy, limited ammo, lots of energy consumption, lots of damage. The numbers are as accurate as I could make them, including projectile mass and impulse.
Wildcat 50 mm Turreted Railgun
Class: Capital Anti-Frigate/Anti-Gunboat Turreted Weapon (CvFr/CvG)
Port: Medium Capital Turret
Damage: 8500/shot
Armor/Splash Damage: 5900
Structural/Piercing Damage: 2600
Splash: 7.5 m
Ammunition: 30/turret
Mass: Medium
Detonation: Contact
Energy Consumption: 42% of turret cell
Delay: 2.5 s
Velocity: 275 m/s
Range: 1.25 km
Auto-targetting: None
Tracking Speed: 6 deg/s
Hellcat 75 mm Turreted Railgun
Class: Capital Anti-Frigate/Anti-Gunboat Turreted Weapon (CvFr/CvG)
Port: Heavy Capital Turret
Damage: 9500/shot
Armor/Splash Damage: 6200
Structural/Piercing Damage: 3300
Splash: 10 m
Ammunition: 30/turret
Mass: Medium
Detonation: Contact
Energy Consumption: 50% of turret cell
Delay: 3 s
Velocity: 250 m/s
Range: 1.5 km
Auto-targetting: None
Tracking Speed: 5 deg/s
Desc.: See Tomcat.
Cougar 250 mm Fixed Railgun
Class: Capital Anti-Capital Fixed Weapon (CvC)
Port: Medium Capital Weapons Port
Damage: 30000/shot
Armor/Splash Damage: 20000
Structural/Piercing Damage: 10000
Splash: 25 m
Ammunition: 10
Mass: Heavy
Detonation: Contact
Energy Consumption: 50% of capital ship power cell
Delay: 7.5 s
Velocity: 250 m/s
Range: 2 km
Auto-targetting: None
Tiger 500 mm Fixed Railgun
Class: Capital Anti-Capital Fixed Weapon (CvC)
Port: Heavy Capital Weapons Port
Damage: 45000/shot
Armor/Splash Damage: 30000
Structural/Piercing Damage: 15000
Splash: 30 m
Ammunition: 10
Mass: Heavy
Detonation: Contact
Energy Consumption: 55% of capital ship power cell
Delay: 8.375 s
Velocity: 225 m/s
Range: 2.5 km
Auto-targetting: None
Lion 750 mm Fixed Railgun
Class: Capital Anti-Capital Fixed Weapon (CvC)
Port: Medium Capital Weapons Port
Damage: 60000/shot
Armor/Splash Damage: 40000
Structural/Piercing Damage: 20000
Splash: 35 m
Ammunition: 10
Mass: Very Heavy
Detonation: Contact
Energy Consumption: 60% of capital ship power cell
Delay: 10 s
Velocity: 200 m/s
Range: 3 km
Auto-targetting: None
Description: There are few more decisive ways of ending an argument than with a mass driver that propels a projectile of almost 200kg (for the Cougar) at speeds faster than any ship can travel. The devastating power of the weapon are only checked by its outrageous energy consumption and its mediocre refire rate. Concentrated fire of more than a few of these harbingers of armageddon usually reduce the focal point to finely ground powder, free to drift through space at its own leisure.
Basically, a rail gun for cap ships. Large, heavy, limited ammo, lots of energy consumption, lots of damage. The numbers are as accurate as I could make them, including projectile mass and impulse.
Interesting, Toshiro. You're all about the WWII figher names. Or are you just naming them after cats? That's cool, actually. My grandfather fought in the pacific, so I like to read about the war, or I'd have not made the connections. It kind of gives some atmosphere to the game.
Yeah, Antz, basically I agree with the main idea, there. I actually had in my head WWII naval combat, but it's basically the same thing but with fighter planes, too. I think that's exactly what it should be like, full 360º naval/air combat in space.
Yeah, Antz, basically I agree with the main idea, there. I actually had in my head WWII naval combat, but it's basically the same thing but with fighter planes, too. I think that's exactly what it should be like, full 360º naval/air combat in space.
While weaponry is very closely linked to tactics, this is not a thread about capital ship tactics. However, at the risk of bringing this thread off-topic I shall respond to your post in its entirety Antz.
First, I agree that capital-class ships should move and turn slowly, that they should have a lot of armor so that fights between 1fleets last several minutes[Not just individual ships], and should lose effectiveness as a battle wears on.
I do not agree that capital-class battles should be conducted like 17th and 18th century warfare, that capital ships cannot turbo, on the entire X-Ray cannon concept[Probably the only part that belongs in this thread], and your declared fighter role.
I am ambivalent towards the damage control idea- I think it's a nice concept, but needs a heavy reworking.
Now, more in detail:
Capital ship warfare should not be conducted like in the 17th or 18th century because it would encourage players to use one and only one tactic- sidle up next to the enemy and bang away with broadsides. Yes, here and there we would get more complex strategies, but to have such a simple and effective tactic at hand would preclude many strategies for many captains.
Turbo is a period of higher speed and limited lateral maneuverability- why would such technology be limited to fighters only? Capital ships turbo even now, albeit in a slow capitalish kind of way.
Anent the X-Ray cannon, x-rays are not in the visible light spectrum in the first place- so it wouldn't look anything. Further, any instant-hit weapon is a bad thing since it does not give players time to react and possibly dodge it. Given average reaction time, it could take players a significant fraction of a second to realize they are being hit and then respond. Battary drain should come from one central power unit so that one must use some energy management skills.
If ship to ship torpedoes are implemented, I'd very much insist that they not be fire and forget weapons[Like missiles]. This way, pilot must think to land a successful shot on even a capital ship.
Fighters can/should perform a number of other roles than interception, missile platforms, and subsystem targeting; such as support, short-term/short-distance supply ferrying, scouting, general distraction, and ship to ship personnel transfer.
Bringing this post back on track: Excellent, Toshiro. I like more options for powerful fixed weaponry. Is there a certain direction the weaponry must be pointing once affixed?
First, I agree that capital-class ships should move and turn slowly, that they should have a lot of armor so that fights between 1fleets last several minutes[Not just individual ships], and should lose effectiveness as a battle wears on.
I do not agree that capital-class battles should be conducted like 17th and 18th century warfare, that capital ships cannot turbo, on the entire X-Ray cannon concept[Probably the only part that belongs in this thread], and your declared fighter role.
I am ambivalent towards the damage control idea- I think it's a nice concept, but needs a heavy reworking.
Now, more in detail:
Capital ship warfare should not be conducted like in the 17th or 18th century because it would encourage players to use one and only one tactic- sidle up next to the enemy and bang away with broadsides. Yes, here and there we would get more complex strategies, but to have such a simple and effective tactic at hand would preclude many strategies for many captains.
Turbo is a period of higher speed and limited lateral maneuverability- why would such technology be limited to fighters only? Capital ships turbo even now, albeit in a slow capitalish kind of way.
Anent the X-Ray cannon, x-rays are not in the visible light spectrum in the first place- so it wouldn't look anything. Further, any instant-hit weapon is a bad thing since it does not give players time to react and possibly dodge it. Given average reaction time, it could take players a significant fraction of a second to realize they are being hit and then respond. Battary drain should come from one central power unit so that one must use some energy management skills.
If ship to ship torpedoes are implemented, I'd very much insist that they not be fire and forget weapons[Like missiles]. This way, pilot must think to land a successful shot on even a capital ship.
Fighters can/should perform a number of other roles than interception, missile platforms, and subsystem targeting; such as support, short-term/short-distance supply ferrying, scouting, general distraction, and ship to ship personnel transfer.
Bringing this post back on track: Excellent, Toshiro. I like more options for powerful fixed weaponry. Is there a certain direction the weaponry must be pointing once affixed?
I like the idea of the x-ray cannon, but I of course agree that it should be at least nearly invisible. (This is interesting right here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray#Visibility_to_the_human_eye ) Not only is that more realistic, but also there's a psychological aspect to that that is I think very powerful. I disagree that we shouldn't have any instant hit weapons, since these would be realistic and fun since they add a new layer to tactics and strategy. There should be other weaknesses of such weapons, such as if they are a steady stream of laser or whatever, they don't do a lot of damage (maybe generate heat, I still think that's a good idea); or they can do a lot of damage in a blast, but need to charge for awhile or cool down to be effective. Maybe one that you can fire often, but if it overheats it stops working until repairs can be made after the battle.
This is a fun link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon
One of the most interesting to me is the electrolaser. Sadly, it would need an atmosphere, since it takes advantage of a problem with laser weapons, that they ionize the air around them. The Electrolaser sends lightning down that ionized path. Ok, that was off topic, but the link isn't. A capital ship would have the power available to use a high power laser weapon.
Also, we could have ammunitionized directed energy weapons. Has anyone read Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle's Footfall? They build a very cool ship propelled by nuclar bombs. Also, whenever one of these bombs was detonated, the otherwise wasted energy passed through something that fired x-rays or something right through the armor of the enemy ship and killed the occupants with invisible radiation. I'll have to look up in the book the specifics, but something like that would work.
This is a fun link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon
One of the most interesting to me is the electrolaser. Sadly, it would need an atmosphere, since it takes advantage of a problem with laser weapons, that they ionize the air around them. The Electrolaser sends lightning down that ionized path. Ok, that was off topic, but the link isn't. A capital ship would have the power available to use a high power laser weapon.
Also, we could have ammunitionized directed energy weapons. Has anyone read Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle's Footfall? They build a very cool ship propelled by nuclar bombs. Also, whenever one of these bombs was detonated, the otherwise wasted energy passed through something that fired x-rays or something right through the armor of the enemy ship and killed the occupants with invisible radiation. I'll have to look up in the book the specifics, but something like that would work.
PC - I'm saying kick the realism here a bit. Any and all munitions and/or weapons fire should always be clearly visible at all times - just say the HUD has detected it and recolored it appropriately (like we already do to radio and gamma ray images from telescopes IRL).
If there is an instant-hit weapon, I think it should either have a long recharge and no auto-aim (i.e. capship must be pointed at the target) and/or fire like a lightning mine (some small but non-trivial damage per second) and either way it should consume a MASSIVE amount of energy.
If there is an instant-hit weapon, I think it should either have a long recharge and no auto-aim (i.e. capship must be pointed at the target) and/or fire like a lightning mine (some small but non-trivial damage per second) and either way it should consume a MASSIVE amount of energy.
personally i'm fine with the idea of an undogable weapon, so long as it's wasted if used on fighters. ie, it does so much damage and has so long a recharcge time that it would be overkill (and a waist of a realatively valuble shot) if fired at anything smaller than a Trident.
i think capitle ships should have weapons that can hit a stationary (or unatentive) target at ranges aproaching 10km, but their optimyum range should be 2-3km. This is similar to how fighter based weapons can be effective at ranges aproaching 600m-1km if their target is stationarry or unatentive, but optimuym range hangs at around 100-200m. Additionaly large Capitle ships like the HAC should be able to maintaine a "perimiter" about 500m-1km where fighters are esentially doomed if they stray within that distance. that is of coarse assuming that the ship is actively maintaining that perimiter and has not taken signifigant damage to it's anti-fighter weaponry.
given that the problem with beam weapons in general is that they are more accurate at their maximum range than at closer ranges. This has to do with tracking speeds and the increased effect of a small angle change over grate distance.
All and all, i think most weapons for cap ships should be realatively fast moving perjectiles (so that they can have a maximum range in the 8-10km range), with slow turret tracking speeds (so fighters can evade them), or high speed missiles with poor homing capabilitys (so a cap ship can't evaid it but a fighter could). Beam weapons should be reserved for smaller ships (like the trident) where the beams can be mounted as forward facing spinal mounts or bore-sighted weaponry, such that the enteire ship has to be moved to aim the weapon (this way small cap ships are more effective at long range, and larger ships while more powerfull over all need to get closer to use their full potential).
anyway, i agree that all weaponry should be visable for "cool factor" even if it conflicts with realisam
i think capitle ships should have weapons that can hit a stationary (or unatentive) target at ranges aproaching 10km, but their optimyum range should be 2-3km. This is similar to how fighter based weapons can be effective at ranges aproaching 600m-1km if their target is stationarry or unatentive, but optimuym range hangs at around 100-200m. Additionaly large Capitle ships like the HAC should be able to maintaine a "perimiter" about 500m-1km where fighters are esentially doomed if they stray within that distance. that is of coarse assuming that the ship is actively maintaining that perimiter and has not taken signifigant damage to it's anti-fighter weaponry.
given that the problem with beam weapons in general is that they are more accurate at their maximum range than at closer ranges. This has to do with tracking speeds and the increased effect of a small angle change over grate distance.
All and all, i think most weapons for cap ships should be realatively fast moving perjectiles (so that they can have a maximum range in the 8-10km range), with slow turret tracking speeds (so fighters can evade them), or high speed missiles with poor homing capabilitys (so a cap ship can't evaid it but a fighter could). Beam weapons should be reserved for smaller ships (like the trident) where the beams can be mounted as forward facing spinal mounts or bore-sighted weaponry, such that the enteire ship has to be moved to aim the weapon (this way small cap ships are more effective at long range, and larger ships while more powerfull over all need to get closer to use their full potential).
anyway, i agree that all weaponry should be visable for "cool factor" even if it conflicts with realisam
The interesting thing in the debate over the "coolness" of visible vs. invisible beam weapons, is that while you think it would be cool to see the beams like in Star Trek, I think it would be cool to not see the beams, like in real life. It would be a bit creepy, I think. Your HUD would tell you you're being hit and where, and with some experience it wouldn't matter so much whether you can see the beam, you'd become used to it. We've just all become accostumed to the sci-fi visible laser weapons. Just so long as if there is a laser weapon in the game, it actually behaves like a laser. I remember the old game Descent. In Descent II, it was ironic because with afterburner you could easily outrun a laser blast, but the Vulcan/Gauss cannon, a projectile weapon, hit its target almost instantly.
Of course these weapons would require huge amounts of energy. That's why their cap ship weapons, fighters aren't capable of powering such huge weapons. Maybe anti-fighter laser turrets (I like the flak idea, too) could be capable of almost continuous streams (though that would not be the most effective way to use them), but do much less damage than the primary weapon. The main laser (turret or otherwise) would deliver a lot of damage (one hit kill for small fighters) but need some time to recharge or cool off like I said. It would work to kill off fighters with such a weapon, but you'd be aiming at a small fast target, and the relatively slow rate of fire would make it only effective against the cap ship. Use against fighters only if the need is great.
Lord Q: Even a 500m perimiter is pretty big for a cap ship alone, unless the gunners are extremely skilled. Ideally, you don't want your capital ship to fire its anti-fighter weaponry at all. You want your capital ship to fulfill its mission, whatever it is, unmolested. It should be up to the support fleet, destroyers, gunships, and fighters, to maintain the perimiter, and if possible attack any threatening fleet or capital ship. A very skilled fleet with no capital ship, maybe a couple medium gunships and several fighters, should theoretically be able to take out a capital ship with an unskilled pilot/crew/support.
It's a good point you bring up about aiming at distant targets is quicker than close targets. Power should drop off with distance, though, due to unfocusing of the beam, if only a little bit.
Of course these weapons would require huge amounts of energy. That's why their cap ship weapons, fighters aren't capable of powering such huge weapons. Maybe anti-fighter laser turrets (I like the flak idea, too) could be capable of almost continuous streams (though that would not be the most effective way to use them), but do much less damage than the primary weapon. The main laser (turret or otherwise) would deliver a lot of damage (one hit kill for small fighters) but need some time to recharge or cool off like I said. It would work to kill off fighters with such a weapon, but you'd be aiming at a small fast target, and the relatively slow rate of fire would make it only effective against the cap ship. Use against fighters only if the need is great.
Lord Q: Even a 500m perimiter is pretty big for a cap ship alone, unless the gunners are extremely skilled. Ideally, you don't want your capital ship to fire its anti-fighter weaponry at all. You want your capital ship to fulfill its mission, whatever it is, unmolested. It should be up to the support fleet, destroyers, gunships, and fighters, to maintain the perimiter, and if possible attack any threatening fleet or capital ship. A very skilled fleet with no capital ship, maybe a couple medium gunships and several fighters, should theoretically be able to take out a capital ship with an unskilled pilot/crew/support.
It's a good point you bring up about aiming at distant targets is quicker than close targets. Power should drop off with distance, though, due to unfocusing of the beam, if only a little bit.
By the way, if you guys think I'm too obsessed with realism (I don't think so), blame Larry Niven. :)
Footfall and The Mote in God's Eye (with sequel The Gripping Hand) are must-reads, and kind of formative for my ideas of realistic capital ship combat.
This is interesting (off-topic, sorry) and used in Footfall:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_%28nuclear_propulsion%29
Footfall and The Mote in God's Eye (with sequel The Gripping Hand) are must-reads, and kind of formative for my ideas of realistic capital ship combat.
This is interesting (off-topic, sorry) and used in Footfall:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_%28nuclear_propulsion%29
Yes, I nicked the (turret) names from Grumman's line of planes. The Tomcat isn't WWII, though, is it? I thought only the supersonic F-14 was called Tomcat. I might be wrong.
I tried to keep the names in some kind of relation to the calibre, as might especially be apparent when looking at the fixed ones (the premise here was that I once found a type of cannon called 'El Tigre'... well, you get the picture ;).
As for capital ship tactics: I agree with Steve, it's a) off-topic, and b) shouldn't borrow too heavily from 17th/18th century.
Now, more destruction. In preemptive defense of my post: I thought of it before having read the Loiter missile bit.
Drifter Mortar & Shells
Class: Anti-Fighter Moving Bomblet Screen (CvF)
Port: Small Capital Port (front)
Damage: 2000/bomblet
Ammunition: 80 per launcher, in sets of 16 (5 salvos)
Mass: Light
Detonation: Proximity, 10 m
Energy Consumption: 35% of power cell
Delay: 5 s
Velocity: 10 m/s + vship
Lifetime: 30 s
Description: Sometimes, you just don't want to have to care about A-Wings crashing into your bridge. That's when you should look no further than the Drifter Mortar, a product from the Serco Dominion Armoury.
It generates a screen of 16 bomblets per shot, in a square pattern slightly larger than the cross-section of the ship. The idea is to decelerate to a speed slightly slower than the one you intend to move at, fire, wait a second or so, and then accelerate to v+10, and voilà, you have a nice, explosive protection screen as a deterrent.
The duration ensures a sufficent effectiveness, and the point is rather to shake fighters off than to outright destroy them, but it can, of course, also be used as a barrage, since it generates enough damage per area to be effective when massed.
Hercules Gravitic Wake Generator
Class: Capital to Capital/Fighter Support (CvC/CvF)
Port: Small Capital Port/High Power Electronics Port
Range: 500m
Mass: Medium
Energy Consumption: none for the ship doing the tugging, 9% for the object being tugged.
Description: Rather than a meager tractor beam, which can only target one object at once, the tinkerers of The Propeller Group have found a way to 'piggyback' multiple ships, depending on mass relations. The requirements for the tugged object are: It must have at most half the mass of the ship doing the tugging, and it must possess its own power cell and engine.
It works like this: The gravitic pulse field of the parent ship is extended to include not only the ship, but also designated objects. The number of said objects depends on the size of the parent object, the child object and their relative masses. Example: A trident would be able to tug a gaggle of Vultures, maybe even Hornets. A Behemoth Heavy would only be able to tug one.
The point should be obvious: You can pull your escorts with you, but they won't have to worry about staying on your tail, on your bow, or 200m off the port side. They will just move along at exactly the same velocity (vector) as you (the parent ship), whilst being able to look around, scan the space around you, and all that jazz.
I tried to keep the names in some kind of relation to the calibre, as might especially be apparent when looking at the fixed ones (the premise here was that I once found a type of cannon called 'El Tigre'... well, you get the picture ;).
As for capital ship tactics: I agree with Steve, it's a) off-topic, and b) shouldn't borrow too heavily from 17th/18th century.
Now, more destruction. In preemptive defense of my post: I thought of it before having read the Loiter missile bit.
Drifter Mortar & Shells
Class: Anti-Fighter Moving Bomblet Screen (CvF)
Port: Small Capital Port (front)
Damage: 2000/bomblet
Ammunition: 80 per launcher, in sets of 16 (5 salvos)
Mass: Light
Detonation: Proximity, 10 m
Energy Consumption: 35% of power cell
Delay: 5 s
Velocity: 10 m/s + vship
Lifetime: 30 s
Description: Sometimes, you just don't want to have to care about A-Wings crashing into your bridge. That's when you should look no further than the Drifter Mortar, a product from the Serco Dominion Armoury.
It generates a screen of 16 bomblets per shot, in a square pattern slightly larger than the cross-section of the ship. The idea is to decelerate to a speed slightly slower than the one you intend to move at, fire, wait a second or so, and then accelerate to v+10, and voilà, you have a nice, explosive protection screen as a deterrent.
The duration ensures a sufficent effectiveness, and the point is rather to shake fighters off than to outright destroy them, but it can, of course, also be used as a barrage, since it generates enough damage per area to be effective when massed.
Hercules Gravitic Wake Generator
Class: Capital to Capital/Fighter Support (CvC/CvF)
Port: Small Capital Port/High Power Electronics Port
Range: 500m
Mass: Medium
Energy Consumption: none for the ship doing the tugging, 9% for the object being tugged.
Description: Rather than a meager tractor beam, which can only target one object at once, the tinkerers of The Propeller Group have found a way to 'piggyback' multiple ships, depending on mass relations. The requirements for the tugged object are: It must have at most half the mass of the ship doing the tugging, and it must possess its own power cell and engine.
It works like this: The gravitic pulse field of the parent ship is extended to include not only the ship, but also designated objects. The number of said objects depends on the size of the parent object, the child object and their relative masses. Example: A trident would be able to tug a gaggle of Vultures, maybe even Hornets. A Behemoth Heavy would only be able to tug one.
The point should be obvious: You can pull your escorts with you, but they won't have to worry about staying on your tail, on your bow, or 200m off the port side. They will just move along at exactly the same velocity (vector) as you (the parent ship), whilst being able to look around, scan the space around you, and all that jazz.
Professor Chaos, we don't just think you are obssessed with realism - we KNOW it. I would also note that much of what you have dubbed realistic is only assuredly realistic within the next 100 years or so.
I really like the gravitic wake generator, Tosh. Though it may be wise to incur some sort of energy drop in the parent ship as well.
I also like the gravitic wave generator, but think that only the parent ship should have to use energy - it is the one with the generator after all. However, I do not know why the generator would be able to target what it was pulling - I think it would be more interesting if it affected everything within its field of influence (and let there be both a 250m version and a 500m version. Also, I think for simplicity I vote for it simply being an "affects non-capital ships" equipment.