How about adding an energy hungry cloaking device? I'll leave turbo, acceleration hits, and firing/missiling up to debate...

Maybe you can't fire at all while cloaked - or maybe you can launch missiles..

... For XYZ more $$$ you can add a cloak detector ;) and then for ZYX $$$ a stronger cloak, and so on...

I think the natural way to balance a cloaking device is make it an alternative to turbo. While cloaked you can neither turbo nor fire (except maybe you could drop mines?), and it uses the same energy/second to stay cloaked as it does to turbo. Once decloaked you have to wait a two or three seconds to recloak. 'Cloaking Device' should be a relatively expensive gizmo that you can equip in one of a limited number of 'electronics slots' The bigger the ship the more slots, with Itani ships have a comparative edge in electronic slot count to fulfil thier flavor. (Serco ships would have an edge in armor slot count or shields or something, etc.)

But that's just the way I'd do it, and I'm sure there are other interesting ways.

Cloak would work like this...

Stand absolutely still.
Can't fire.
Can't boost.

If any of these things change, you'll slowly begin to reappear.

I personally think it shouldn't need to take any energy at all, since you really can't fire or do anything as an "exploit" while cloaked. And you should still be selectable by enemies and be visible on the radar. So it's just a visual advantage. All the pilot would have to do to cloak is stand perfectly still for a certain amount of time. Oh, and maybe this could be for a completely new ship that looks something like a stealth fighter or some top secret stealth ship. You wouldn't be able to buy a cloaking device... it would just be that ship's special ability that would kick in while the player is idle.

What'll be even more cooler is when radar waves would bounce off of asteroids, enabling true "duck and cover" tactics. Imagine an entire fleet of cloaked fighters within the tiny holes of an asteroid. Once an enemy convoy finally passes by the asteroid, the cloaked ships would boost out of the tiny holes and lose their cloaking abilities, causing all these red dots to appear out of nowhere on the enemy's radar screens. Perfect ambush.

=)

Arolte: The 'no movement' concept would work to, albeit it would be very limited. Mostly it would be used to hide and recover energy, which would be cool. I still thank it should use a small ammount of power to cloak, and it would be necessary to only allow cloaking every few seconds.

But, I thank a cloak that can't defeat radar would be pointless.

A gizmo that defeated radar but not visibility would be far more useful.

I've been waiting for the ability to hide behind asteroids since the game began.

I disagree on both parts. There are two reasons why a nation would develop a cloak: 1) for defense, and 2) for reconnaissance. The first reason doesn't really hold up: you would never use a cloak for defense, because that would mean that you were already under attack. Therefore, you would be an invisible target in the middle of a slew of randomly fired energy weapons and torps. If you couldn't MOVE while cloaked than the shots wouldn't even be random. They'd just shoot at the last place you were seen. BOOM.

So defense fails the test: no nation would ever spend uber-$$$ to develop a technology where just piling on plates of cheap armor could do the same thing.

Now the SECOND reason (stealth) makes much more sense. If there was a real application, nations would invest big bucks in developing a technology for this purpose. But for stealth/reconnaissance you have to be able to move, and potentially for very long distances. I hate to admit it, but Star Trek actually got this one more-or-less right. You can't warp (turbo) while cloaked. You also can't fire. But you can move around all you want otherwise. For Vendetta:

1) You should need full energy to cloak
2) Once cloaked it should take little or no energy to maintain the cloak (may about 1/3rd the rate of a turbo... easily sustainable unless you have a crappy battery)
3) You can't shoot while cloaked
4) You can't turbo while cloaked
5) You can drop mines (good idea Celebrim)
6) You shouldn't be able to jump through a wormhole while cloaked.
7) Cloaking should be recognized as a hostile action: once the reputation system is built, your reputation will suffer if you are found sneaking around
8) likewise, Stations should be able to detect cloaked ships, and should act aggressively towards cloaked ships (stops purely cloaked trading as well as cloaked station camping)

and...

9) This one will be controversial, but I think you should have to 'fly silent' to remain cloaked. That is, limit chat to closed channels such as team chat or personal messages...

and a question:

Do cloaked ships show up in the sector's user screen (the screen when you hit "u")...?

"Do cloaked ships show up in the sector's user screen (the screen when you hit "u")...?"

Well, ideally, nothing that you don't have radar contact with should show up on 'u'. That is to say, things in the station shouldn't be on 'u', things more than 3km away shouldn't be on 'u', and ideally things on the other side of asteroids shouldn't be on 'u'.

"I hate to admit it, but Star Trek actually got this one more-or-less right."

May I suggest that Star Trek didn't 'get it right', but rather that your perceptions of how a cloak should work were entirely colored by Star Trek. That is, I think you think that if it doesn't work like you think cloaks work in Star Trek that it hasn't been 'gotten right'. BTW, I can't take credit for the dropping mines while cloaked, rather that comes from Star Trek (namely SFB).

Might I suggest that one of the main reasons to have cloaks is to lay ambushes, and your cloak since it lets you have full energy while moving while cloaked is particularly suited to this 'offensive' role of a cloaking device. I not particularly thrilled with your cloak implementation. I think basically it would be used solely for sneaking up on things and doesn't give any particular disadvantage to mounting heavy engines and heavy batteries and other equipment most useful when you get there. In order to get full use of a cloak offensively with my implementation you have to use an efficient engine, which is itself a combat limitation.

"9) This one will be controversial, but I think you should have to 'fly silent' to remain cloaked. That is, limit chat to closed channels such as team chat or personal messages..."

I personally think that the idea of 'chat' should go away. It's harmful to the game. It destroys the emmersiveness of the RP environment, it leads to alot of spam and player friction, it leads to Vendetta being used as a chat room, and the problem is only going to get worse. I think we should get radios replacing the current 'chat' feature. Those radios should have limited range (a couple of sectors, more if you buy upgrades), and that the use of radios should have some in game effect - such as making it easier to be picked up other ships sensors (radar). Only people on the same 'channel' could hear what was said, unless perhaps they bought something like a frequency scanner gizmo - in which case there would be a chance they would hear anything said on any channel by a nearby ship. A cloaked ship sending messages should have some likelihood of appearing on radar briefly flickering on and off as the messages were sent - no matter what radio channel they were sent on.

Well, here is my idea, while in cloak, your ship is visually not there correct? and to almost all sensors it is physically not there. if anything hits you, it should de cloak you, de cloaking should take about 3 seconds maybe. This would also allow a new weapon for station guards, if you disappear without warping or dieing, they will fire a low yeild high range warhead at an object, thus decloaking you if you didn't run.

Celebrim, stop out smarting people, it makes them feel little and some peoples ego gets squished, hrmm, some people do need there ego squished though...

To prevent people from flying up behind ships, uncloaking, and blasting them to bits you would need to have your weapons disabled for a few seconds after you uncloak.

Also, if you could lay mines what's stopping you from buying dual lightning mine launchers and laying them right in front of an enemy ship??

Maybe a cloaked ship could be detected if it was less than 250m away or something.

you should physically be able to see the ships that are cloaked.
I say no fire and no turbo for cloaked ships.

...my ego is not squished :-) I've been on these boards long enough to know that while Celebrim can sometimes be opinionated, he doesn't mean any real harm, and usually has some well-thought suggestions. Sadly, many newbs haven't figured this out and remain quiet for fear of a stern rebuttal.

"May I suggest that Star Trek didn't 'get it right', but rather that your perceptions of how a cloak should work were entirely colored by Star Trek. That is, I think you think that if it doesn't work like you think cloaks work in Star Trek that it hasn't been 'gotten right'. BTW, I can't take credit for the dropping mines while cloaked, rather that comes from Star Trek (namely SFB)."

You may suggest that but you would be WRONG. I think Star Trek got the cloaks more-or-less right because the cloak system used in ST makes sense. Just think of why any person or nation would develop anything. What is the motivating factor? What requirements would be mandatory for that person or nation to justify huge amounts of R&D money. What political repercussions would there be? If your cloak didn't have a very useful purpose, it would never be built because it would be a huge R&R investment and would invite political hostility simply by its existence. So are cloaks limited to a military purpose? Probably but not necessarily.

"Might I suggest that one of the main reasons to have cloaks is to lay ambushes, and your cloak since it lets you have full energy while moving while cloaked is particularly suited to this 'offensive' role of a cloaking device. I not particularly thrilled with your cloak implementation. I think basically it would be used solely for sneaking up on things"

Again, you can suggest anything that you'd like. But what you're missing here is that we AGREE on this point. I say "reconnaissance", you say "ambushes" but what we both mean are covert military operations. This is EXACTLY why I suggested that cloaking should be considered an act of aggression when discovered and should initiate attacks from station defenses. The guy peeping in your window might not be dangerous, but you're going to assume the worst and call the cops.

"doesn't give any particular disadvantage to mounting heavy engines and heavy batteries and other equipment most useful when you get there."

The disadvantages with my system are: You can't turbo, sector-jump or fire. You also can't approach a station. If more disadvantages are required for game balance, have the cloak drain energy on *discharge*. That is, you need full energy to cloak. Once cloaked, you can stay that way as long as you want but you can't dock at a station nor jump through a wormhole nor turbo or fire. When you de-cloak, your battery drains to 50% (or something). It just an idea...

My problem with the battery draining while the cloak is in use is multi-faceted. However, my primary concern is that it would seriously limit the amount of actual reconnaissance that could be accomplished. People will be discouraged to "spy" deep into an enemy sector, because when the cloak drains they'd be a siting duck. So instead people will just use the cloak for pirating: sitting along trade routes and ambushing people for the fun of it. It takes the RPG element out of the cloak and puts a huge dose of FPS into it.

Also... I can already see the mine-idea being used as an exploit (although I like the mine idea personally). You sit in a straight line between two wormholes. When someone turbos along, you drop a bunch of mines right in front them. BOOM.

Cloaks:

Can move but no higher than 10m/s if you do your position is given away.

After you uncloak it take 2 seconds before you can fire any weapons.

Station defenses will fire if you get within 50m of them.

Proxy mines will explode only if you hit directly.

slappyknappy: Well it is nice to see someonce take on without first yelling 'freak' at me. :)

I think both Arolte's cloak (well with a little tweaking) and my cloak serve useful purposes sufficient to justify research into thier existance taking place. Arolte's cloak can be used in a variaty of ways. You can set up a listening post (reconaisance). You can hide a fleet or you can hide the size of your fleet in order to lure the opponent into closer range (offense). You can manuever around an obstacle (once obstacles break radar contact), cloak, and then allow your energy to recover. (defense) My cloak implementation has many uses. You can (with the right engine/battery package), move basically anonymously from sector to sector (reconaisance), albeit the fact that something jumped in will be seen by the observant. You can move under the cover of cloak to get close to a target without being seen(offense). You can attempt to leave a battle by cloaking and moving off in an unexpected direction (defense). By the definition of utility you are using, both Arolte's and my cloak 'make sense', and neither is the same as yours. Which leaves me in some doubt whether there is any one implementation that is the 'right implementation', much less that your implementation is the Star Trek implementation.

"People will be discouraged to "spy" deep into an enemy sector, because when the cloak drains they'd be a siting duck."

How deep into enemy territory are they going to get if they can't jump cloaked? With an efficient turbo set up, my cloak allows everything yours does in recon and then some. It's just you have to choose that efficient turbo set up and the reduced manueverability it represents. If you don't, then you have battery drain and you are limited to about a minute of cloaking and reduced energy when you are done.

I thought about the mine thing too but, 1) one mine probably won't kill any target, 2) if its a prox mine you'll be in your own splash radius, 3) there isn't much like a straight line between wormholes now that the area you jump into is so big so alot of patience is required.

FREAK! (just kidding)

"How deep into enemy territory are they going to get if they can't jump cloaked? With an efficient turbo set up, my cloak allows everything yours does in re-con and then some. It's just you have to choose that efficient turbo set up and the reduced maneuverability it represents. If you don't, then you have battery drain and you are limited to about a minute of cloaking and reduced energy when you are done."

I don't mind some energy drain, so long as it is possible to fly around for prolonged periods if you have a correct ship configuration. From my original post "2) Once cloaked it should take little or no energy to maintain the cloak (may about 1/3rd the rate of a turbo... easily sustainable unless you have a crappy battery)"

And...

"How deep into enemy territory are they going to get if they can't jump cloaked?"

very deep. You're just visible (and at risk) for a brief moment before a jump and after a jump. Once you're in a new sector, you can go virtually anywhere you want, wait for an opportune moment, de-cloak and jump again.

I can be swayed on many points, but I think that jumping through wormholes cloaked is a bad idea. That's why with a no-energy cloak I suggested this as a requirement. With an energy-draining cloak it's a moot point, because you need full energy to jump.

"I thought about the mine thing too but".. I agree, but when you think of 'uber-mines' and other tactics, i shudder at how cloaks will be used by the griefers (term adopted from another thread). Still, I like the idea of dropping mines from a cloaked ship. You could advance slowly on sectors by secretly advancing and laying down mine fields prior to engagement. ohhh.... fun!

Thats a neat idea!!

Rise, RISE, RISE!

No, No, NOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

There's a limit to the number of times I can use Rebuke Undead in a single day, man. You're pushing it.

Though this is a good idea, at least. I've always kind of wondered why we don't have cloaks.

I'm sure by 'we' you mean 'the Serco' and by 'don't have cloaks' you mean 'have no cloaking devices and the Itani no shield focus, while we're at it, and please implement it'.

Let's just wait for it. Faction redux first, at any rate, in my opinion.

If a cloaking device was implemented, the Raptor would be a good candidate for a ship that can see through it, at least allow the pilot to see a wire frame of the cloaked ship (as it does with asteroids in Ion sotmrs) and have it appear on radar at short range.

Maybe then it would be useful for something other than travelling fast. :P

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Suggestion:

To get around the problem of balance and expolits with cloaking, make specific ships that can cloak rather than a device that can be attached to any ship. Then you don't have to impose harsh limits on the cloak, just give the ship appropriate abilities for a ship that can cloak.

I.e. For a recon craft - Not particularly well armoured or powerful, but good radar range.

Or you could have a stealth-bomber class similar to those in Eve. So useless in dogfights but effective at ambushing capitals or large transports from range.