Forums » Suggestions
Nobody uses the Gat Cannon, except for people who have a deathwish, coupled with some morbid fascination for the pretty spray of yellow it makes - it's just not effective at any reasonable range, on any reasonable ship.
So how do we give the GC some lovin'?
Here's my suggestion:
1. Eliminate Auto-Aim - entirely. There should be no cone whatsoever.
2. Double the output - Give it some real umph; if it's a true gatling weapon, it's using multiple barrels in rotation to achieve its high rate of fire. The simply beautiful solution was brought up in a thread of railgun suggestion - http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/12940#161874 - make the gatling cannon fire at both the top and bottom of its rotational cycle, so that not one, but two energy packets leave the weapon in each fire burst.
3. Increase the drain accordingly - wait a minute, increase the drain you say?? By accordingly, I'm saying it should be increased by approximately 50% in proportion to the Rate of Fire's 100% increase. The 3:4 energy:rate boost could be what it takes to make this weapon practical again, giving the gatling cannon the needed overall improvement to get people using it.
Perhaps a SLIGHT mass increase would be in order as well, just to prevent it being abused on ships like the hog, which currently abuse the AGT's low mass. (fixing the AGT's mass is a topic of another thread)
I think this would give the GC the nice 'shotgun' appeal people now try to use it for, but make it actually effective, unlike it curently is.
Right now, it typically takes two gat cannons to inflict any reasonable amount of damage on a target, and then the drain is virtually prohibitive... so lets make one gat cannon worth two, and increase the drain slightly (but not fully) to compensate.
So how do we give the GC some lovin'?
Here's my suggestion:
1. Eliminate Auto-Aim - entirely. There should be no cone whatsoever.
2. Double the output - Give it some real umph; if it's a true gatling weapon, it's using multiple barrels in rotation to achieve its high rate of fire. The simply beautiful solution was brought up in a thread of railgun suggestion - http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/12940#161874 - make the gatling cannon fire at both the top and bottom of its rotational cycle, so that not one, but two energy packets leave the weapon in each fire burst.
3. Increase the drain accordingly - wait a minute, increase the drain you say?? By accordingly, I'm saying it should be increased by approximately 50% in proportion to the Rate of Fire's 100% increase. The 3:4 energy:rate boost could be what it takes to make this weapon practical again, giving the gatling cannon the needed overall improvement to get people using it.
Perhaps a SLIGHT mass increase would be in order as well, just to prevent it being abused on ships like the hog, which currently abuse the AGT's low mass. (fixing the AGT's mass is a topic of another thread)
I think this would give the GC the nice 'shotgun' appeal people now try to use it for, but make it actually effective, unlike it curently is.
Right now, it typically takes two gat cannons to inflict any reasonable amount of damage on a target, and then the drain is virtually prohibitive... so lets make one gat cannon worth two, and increase the drain slightly (but not fully) to compensate.
Hmmm, I'm not sure I like this... the GC already has the highest firing rate out of any weapon in the game, and now you want to double it?
I've got a counter-proposal...
A) nerf the Gatling Turret slightly by bumping its mass up to 1800 kg.
B) Leave the Gatling Cannon as is, but make it available at level 0.
The reason for B is that there is currently no L-port blaster available to newbs, and its much harder to level up heavy weapons with the stingray launcher. Myself (and others) have been suggesting B for a long, long time.
True, the Gatling Turret is rather unbalanced compared to the Gatling Cannon, but it's also rather unbalanced compared to everything else. Instead of taking the Gatling Cannon up to the level of the Gatling Turret, let's tone down the GT slightly, and make the GC the basic L-port blaster this game needs.
I've got a counter-proposal...
A) nerf the Gatling Turret slightly by bumping its mass up to 1800 kg.
B) Leave the Gatling Cannon as is, but make it available at level 0.
The reason for B is that there is currently no L-port blaster available to newbs, and its much harder to level up heavy weapons with the stingray launcher. Myself (and others) have been suggesting B for a long, long time.
True, the Gatling Turret is rather unbalanced compared to the Gatling Cannon, but it's also rather unbalanced compared to everything else. Instead of taking the Gatling Cannon up to the level of the Gatling Turret, let's tone down the GT slightly, and make the GC the basic L-port blaster this game needs.
Interesting, Cunjo and Phaserlight.
I am not sure where to bring this up, so I am simply going to mention it here for now: I just realized that a significant portion of the Vendetta community seems to want a great deal of game balance and very little (if any) equipment obsolescence. This is not a bad thing, just interesting (though I wonder how I missed it before). People complain about the Behemoth being THE trading ship and about the power of Promethei and Valkyries; they complain about the mediocrity of the Marauder; etc. ... So, I ask just this - Why?
Advanced EVE players only use Tech2 stuff. WoW players only use drop/spawn items. UO, Diablo II, Lineage, EverQuest ... all appear to have a majority of their equipment as useless to upper-level characters. Is it simply that Vendetta has a higher percentage of “advanced” players (come on, admit it, license level 11 anything is easy to get and the new stuff stops at 9-10) or are we all just special?
I am not sure where to bring this up, so I am simply going to mention it here for now: I just realized that a significant portion of the Vendetta community seems to want a great deal of game balance and very little (if any) equipment obsolescence. This is not a bad thing, just interesting (though I wonder how I missed it before). People complain about the Behemoth being THE trading ship and about the power of Promethei and Valkyries; they complain about the mediocrity of the Marauder; etc. ... So, I ask just this - Why?
Advanced EVE players only use Tech2 stuff. WoW players only use drop/spawn items. UO, Diablo II, Lineage, EverQuest ... all appear to have a majority of their equipment as useless to upper-level characters. Is it simply that Vendetta has a higher percentage of “advanced” players (come on, admit it, license level 11 anything is easy to get and the new stuff stops at 9-10) or are we all just special?
The thing is that this game is not based around leveling. Its a chore that we all have to deal with at some point. But most of the game is centered around what you do once you HAVE the levels.
The nice thing about balance, is that it allows players who haven't advanced as far, to partake in that, without having to have access to the "uber stuff".
This is a skillbased game, there's no reason for uber stuff.
The nice thing about balance, is that it allows players who haven't advanced as far, to partake in that, without having to have access to the "uber stuff".
This is a skillbased game, there's no reason for uber stuff.
There is no reason to have uber stuff, true, and the game is not focused on leveling, true, but...
Without crackbotting, the BP bug, and years of combat experience, leveling does take time, ergo there ought to be a smooth progression of lower end newbie items.
I've been wanting to make a post on newbie weapon balance for a long time actually, there are three things about it that bug me:
1) There is no basic (level 0) L-port blaster
2) The plasma HK is better than any other newbie s-port blaster once you get it (at level -/1/-/-/-), it needs some attention.
3) The flechettes would be perfect at filling the gap between the phased blasters and the neutron blasters, but they aren't available until level 5/5/-/-/-?!?
Without crackbotting, the BP bug, and years of combat experience, leveling does take time, ergo there ought to be a smooth progression of lower end newbie items.
I've been wanting to make a post on newbie weapon balance for a long time actually, there are three things about it that bug me:
1) There is no basic (level 0) L-port blaster
2) The plasma HK is better than any other newbie s-port blaster once you get it (at level -/1/-/-/-), it needs some attention.
3) The flechettes would be perfect at filling the gap between the phased blasters and the neutron blasters, but they aren't available until level 5/5/-/-/-?!?
actualy there are a lot of "obsoleted" weapons in VO, the problem is the level progressions as a whole aren't calibrated very well and our userbase is so vet-heavy that we don't often see the issues. and generaly when a n00b does coment that the level curve needs fixing the vets immediately respond with doctrin like "you get most of what you need by combat 4" or "a compotent player can level to combat 5 in half an houre".
basicly there will need to be a level-rebalance where the devs go though the lists of the actual stats and level requirnments for all the equipment and see if it realy makes sence.
now as for the gattling cannon:
personaly i'd rather see the damage increased, and the spray effect reduced or removed (but that's just because i like precise dealy weapons)
basicly there will need to be a level-rebalance where the devs go though the lists of the actual stats and level requirnments for all the equipment and see if it realy makes sence.
now as for the gattling cannon:
personaly i'd rather see the damage increased, and the spray effect reduced or removed (but that's just because i like precise dealy weapons)
The real problem in vendetta is.. License's take to long to obtain, for example my current levels are 7/8/4/10/9, ive been playing with this character for over a year, by now I should have some reasonable numbers in the teens.
Believe it or not... constant rewards such as license's for playing even small amounts of time will keep a player coming back for more, Now.. in no way should it be easy to get to higher levels, however the higher levels should not be in the mid-teens for each license, they need to be at around a range of 25-30 , For example my current levels would probably tanslate into something in the neighborhood of 15/16/8/20/18 for and overall of level of 77.
The other issues such as noobie weapons also need to be addressed by the devs before they make a marketing push. I personally would like to see stations/factions selling bundles IE ships pre configured with weapons which can get the job done to a descent level
Believe it or not... constant rewards such as license's for playing even small amounts of time will keep a player coming back for more, Now.. in no way should it be easy to get to higher levels, however the higher levels should not be in the mid-teens for each license, they need to be at around a range of 25-30 , For example my current levels would probably tanslate into something in the neighborhood of 15/16/8/20/18 for and overall of level of 77.
The other issues such as noobie weapons also need to be addressed by the devs before they make a marketing push. I personally would like to see stations/factions selling bundles IE ships pre configured with weapons which can get the job done to a descent level
Also note that for some reason in Sedina D14 the AGT costs less than the GC...that can't be right
I agree with Cunjo's post. The Gatling should receive a rate-of-fire increase as well as an energy drain increase, the way he suggested it (including the autoaim elimination).
I don't think that would make the gun overly strong, in contradiction to what Phaserlight said. They'd be much like blue ions, and those who still remember that will know that they did not ensure victory at all.
I don't think that would make the gun overly strong, in contradiction to what Phaserlight said. They'd be much like blue ions, and those who still remember that will know that they did not ensure victory at all.
Phaserlight:
I can agree that the newbies need an L-port blaster, but I don't think the Gat Cannon is the weapon for it. I'd rather see a slower-fire weapon for that, which would be the basic equivalent of an L-port Phased Blaster (slightly slower fire and higher power/speed than the Phaser I).
The AGT needs mass nerfage, but that's not what this thread is for... this is for beefing the utterly useless GC. (Hell, up to 1800? make it 2000...)
Smit:
Corvus has a lot fo weird prices... I wouldn't be concerned unless it's consistent at other stations.
Everyone:
Can we take the levels/licences/obsolete-eqip convo to another thread?
I can agree that the newbies need an L-port blaster, but I don't think the Gat Cannon is the weapon for it. I'd rather see a slower-fire weapon for that, which would be the basic equivalent of an L-port Phased Blaster (slightly slower fire and higher power/speed than the Phaser I).
The AGT needs mass nerfage, but that's not what this thread is for... this is for beefing the utterly useless GC. (Hell, up to 1800? make it 2000...)
Smit:
Corvus has a lot fo weird prices... I wouldn't be concerned unless it's consistent at other stations.
Everyone:
Can we take the levels/licences/obsolete-eqip convo to another thread?
this is so dumb.
Cunjo, have you ever seriously tried to fly with the gatling cannon? Simply upping the rate of fire will do nothing for the gatling cannon. As it is, the AGT is fairly crippled due to its low accuracy and low shot speed. With any of the light fighters, as well as the hog and hornet in some configurations, a good pilot can dodge the AGT's slow and inaccurate shots.
In fact, the only reason why the AGT seems so powerful is because players who don't know how to fight it try to charge in to outmaneuver the firing platform, but what tends to happen instead is that it just brings the fighter close enough that the AGT's shots can actually hit.
To eliminate the autoaim and double the rate-of-fire means that you simply have the ultimate spray-and-pray gun. You put a large number of shots into space simply hoping that some of them will hit.
The gatling cannon needs to see an increase in accuracy and shot speed. Sure, an increase in rate-of-fire would be nice, but to really make it effective, it needs to be able to hit targets with reasonable accuracy at ranges over 60m.
Cunjo, have you ever seriously tried to fly with the gatling cannon? Simply upping the rate of fire will do nothing for the gatling cannon. As it is, the AGT is fairly crippled due to its low accuracy and low shot speed. With any of the light fighters, as well as the hog and hornet in some configurations, a good pilot can dodge the AGT's slow and inaccurate shots.
In fact, the only reason why the AGT seems so powerful is because players who don't know how to fight it try to charge in to outmaneuver the firing platform, but what tends to happen instead is that it just brings the fighter close enough that the AGT's shots can actually hit.
To eliminate the autoaim and double the rate-of-fire means that you simply have the ultimate spray-and-pray gun. You put a large number of shots into space simply hoping that some of them will hit.
The gatling cannon needs to see an increase in accuracy and shot speed. Sure, an increase in rate-of-fire would be nice, but to really make it effective, it needs to be able to hit targets with reasonable accuracy at ranges over 60m.
Yea, accuracy is the ultimate upgrade option in VO.
You can die within 2 or 6 seconds within sitting still, in a medium, light ship.
The whole game is balanced no the sheer fact that its hard to hit someone.
Whether you would die in 2 or 6 seconds only matters if someone can hit you when your moving.
You can die within 2 or 6 seconds within sitting still, in a medium, light ship.
The whole game is balanced no the sheer fact that its hard to hit someone.
Whether you would die in 2 or 6 seconds only matters if someone can hit you when your moving.
CP:
Cunjo, have you ever seriously tried to fly with the gatling cannon? Simply upping the rate of fire will do nothing for the gatling cannon. As it is, the AGT is fairly crippled due to its low accuracy and low shot speed. With any of the light fighters, as well as the hog and hornet in some configurations, a good pilot can dodge the AGT's slow and inaccurate shots....
...To eliminate the autoaim and double the rate-of-fire means that you simply have the ultimate spray-and-pray gun. You put a large number of shots into space simply hoping that some of them will hit.
The gatling cannon needs to see an increase in accuracy and shot speed. Sure, an increase in rate-of-fire would be nice, but to really make it effective, it needs to be able to hit targets with reasonable accuracy at ranges over 60m.
Yes, that was the point. An increase in weapon velocity would do it good as well, but I think the whole idea of the gat cannon (thus far, as its been used) is to throw a huge, well-timed burst of fire at a target with nothing even remotely resembling accuracy, in hopes that they won't be able to evade it all. It's not so much a spray-and-pray weapon as a space reincarnation of the sawed-off shotgun, mainly because it drains too much energy to really keep up sustained fire - the bursts need to be planned.
Ever fly a dual-GC/Tri-popcorn rag? with a heavy battery, you can sustain fire for a little under 2 seconds. Yet, you don't put out enough power to kill a light fighter even at point-blank in that time. The output over drain ratio needs to be increased.
When you're flying that ship, your whole bid for victory depends on surviving, getting in close, lining up a shot, and blasting with everything. Yet, there's no way you can survive long enough to inflict that much damage, because the overall force of firepower is too low. The only real upside to flying that ship, is that it looks damn cool, and the only thing its really good at popping is Oruns.
If you want to hit something with accuracy at range, get a blaster.
Cunjo, have you ever seriously tried to fly with the gatling cannon? Simply upping the rate of fire will do nothing for the gatling cannon. As it is, the AGT is fairly crippled due to its low accuracy and low shot speed. With any of the light fighters, as well as the hog and hornet in some configurations, a good pilot can dodge the AGT's slow and inaccurate shots....
...To eliminate the autoaim and double the rate-of-fire means that you simply have the ultimate spray-and-pray gun. You put a large number of shots into space simply hoping that some of them will hit.
The gatling cannon needs to see an increase in accuracy and shot speed. Sure, an increase in rate-of-fire would be nice, but to really make it effective, it needs to be able to hit targets with reasonable accuracy at ranges over 60m.
Yes, that was the point. An increase in weapon velocity would do it good as well, but I think the whole idea of the gat cannon (thus far, as its been used) is to throw a huge, well-timed burst of fire at a target with nothing even remotely resembling accuracy, in hopes that they won't be able to evade it all. It's not so much a spray-and-pray weapon as a space reincarnation of the sawed-off shotgun, mainly because it drains too much energy to really keep up sustained fire - the bursts need to be planned.
Ever fly a dual-GC/Tri-popcorn rag? with a heavy battery, you can sustain fire for a little under 2 seconds. Yet, you don't put out enough power to kill a light fighter even at point-blank in that time. The output over drain ratio needs to be increased.
When you're flying that ship, your whole bid for victory depends on surviving, getting in close, lining up a shot, and blasting with everything. Yet, there's no way you can survive long enough to inflict that much damage, because the overall force of firepower is too low. The only real upside to flying that ship, is that it looks damn cool, and the only thing its really good at popping is Oruns.
If you want to hit something with accuracy at range, get a blaster.
increase the spread, double the output, drop the autoaim, increase the weight, and increase the shot speed.
I don't see the need for all the weapons to be balanced against eachother. Sure, then the game is perfectly fair in any situation, but you lose a lot of the exitment. Different weapons should have different strategys used against them, and currently the gatling turret is the only weapon that needs an adjustment in strategy. (Its weight and rate of fire are fine btw, you just have to be a bold pilot.)
Having a few overpowered weapons wouldn't be all the bad, it'd give the newbs and the vets something real to worry about, and you'd have to find a specific strategy for said weapon. I like Cunjo's suggestion, you'd have to find a way to deal with the spread and rate of fire. His suggestion would make this the ultimate dog-fight weapon, if you could get around the weight, and you'd really have to think about how the hell you'd get out of the way!
Having a few overpowered weapons wouldn't be all the bad, it'd give the newbs and the vets something real to worry about, and you'd have to find a specific strategy for said weapon. I like Cunjo's suggestion, you'd have to find a way to deal with the spread and rate of fire. His suggestion would make this the ultimate dog-fight weapon, if you could get around the weight, and you'd really have to think about how the hell you'd get out of the way!
UD:
spread really doesn't need an increase, but otherwise, spot-on =)
LoB:
"I don't see the need for all the weapons to be balanced against eachother. Sure, then the game is perfectly fair in any situation, but you lose a lot of the exitment. Different weapons should have different strategys used against them, and currently the gatling turret is the only weapon that needs an adjustment in strategy. (Its weight and rate of fire are fine btw, you just have to be a bold pilot.)"
I disagree. Having overpowered weapons DESTROYS the excitement, because then it becomes little more than a bid for the powerful weapon, and you lose the excitement and tactics of level combat.
Keeping the game balanced is keeping it exciting; it's giving everyone the chance to test their SKILL and their TACTICS against those of other players - not to test their WEAPONS. The balance is also what makes this game unique, and gives people a reason to play it, instead of one of the dozens of level-whoring MMORPGS out there.
And if you think the GC is fine, then you're welcome to start using it... I'll even invite you to start with me, and see how long you last.
spread really doesn't need an increase, but otherwise, spot-on =)
LoB:
"I don't see the need for all the weapons to be balanced against eachother. Sure, then the game is perfectly fair in any situation, but you lose a lot of the exitment. Different weapons should have different strategys used against them, and currently the gatling turret is the only weapon that needs an adjustment in strategy. (Its weight and rate of fire are fine btw, you just have to be a bold pilot.)"
I disagree. Having overpowered weapons DESTROYS the excitement, because then it becomes little more than a bid for the powerful weapon, and you lose the excitement and tactics of level combat.
Keeping the game balanced is keeping it exciting; it's giving everyone the chance to test their SKILL and their TACTICS against those of other players - not to test their WEAPONS. The balance is also what makes this game unique, and gives people a reason to play it, instead of one of the dozens of level-whoring MMORPGS out there.
And if you think the GC is fine, then you're welcome to start using it... I'll even invite you to start with me, and see how long you last.
"I don't see the need for all the weapons to be balanced against eachother."
"I disagree. Having overpowered weapons DESTROYS the excitement..."
Not having all weapons perfectly balanced against each other is different from having overpowered weapons. The reality is that not all weapons are equal. Are you really saying that the plasma blasters should be balanced evenly with nIIIs?
Perhaps a better way to phrase the argument is that there should be a variety of balanced weapons at each phase in the game, beginning middle and end.
My personal opinion is that the gatling cannon never was meant to be balanced versus the gatling turret, they belong to different tiers of weaponry (hence the term advanced gatling turret). The AGT is an endgame weapon whereas its more basic counterpart belongs in a lower tier, nothing wrong with that. It's the same reason we have the neutron mkI and II.
We already have a fairly good mix of end game weaponry, so instead of trying to balance the GC with the GT, why not look at the Gatling Cannon in relation to the Plasma Devastator or the Stingray Launcher.
"I disagree. Having overpowered weapons DESTROYS the excitement..."
Not having all weapons perfectly balanced against each other is different from having overpowered weapons. The reality is that not all weapons are equal. Are you really saying that the plasma blasters should be balanced evenly with nIIIs?
Perhaps a better way to phrase the argument is that there should be a variety of balanced weapons at each phase in the game, beginning middle and end.
My personal opinion is that the gatling cannon never was meant to be balanced versus the gatling turret, they belong to different tiers of weaponry (hence the term advanced gatling turret). The AGT is an endgame weapon whereas its more basic counterpart belongs in a lower tier, nothing wrong with that. It's the same reason we have the neutron mkI and II.
We already have a fairly good mix of end game weaponry, so instead of trying to balance the GC with the GT, why not look at the Gatling Cannon in relation to the Plasma Devastator or the Stingray Launcher.
Slightly different suggestion:
triple damage
speed 150 (or even 130)
leave everything else the same
The thing could be a great bomber weapon that way.
or lower the levels to 1 heavy <.<
triple damage
speed 150 (or even 130)
leave everything else the same
The thing could be a great bomber weapon that way.
or lower the levels to 1 heavy <.<
Phaserlight,
Then make a mk IV Gatling Cannon.
Then make a mk IV Gatling Cannon.
Hows this then?
Gatling Cannon mkI
Available at -/-/-/-/-
Damage 280
Velocity 170
Energy 10/blast
Delay current GC
Mass 700kg
Gatling Cannon mkII
Available at 2/1/1/-/-
Damage 300
Velocity 180
Energy 8/blast
Delay current GC
Mass 800 kg
Gatling Twin-Barrel
Available at 5/4/4/-/-
Damage 300
Velocity 180
Energy 12/dual blast
Delay current GC (fires 2 shots)
Mass 1400 kg
First two variants would have the current GC's autoaim, the twin barrel would have no autoaim. I'm still not a fan of doubling the GC's output (spray 'n pray, anyone?), but this way we'd fit both ideas in a hopefully balanced manner.
Gatling Cannon mkI
Available at -/-/-/-/-
Damage 280
Velocity 170
Energy 10/blast
Delay current GC
Mass 700kg
Gatling Cannon mkII
Available at 2/1/1/-/-
Damage 300
Velocity 180
Energy 8/blast
Delay current GC
Mass 800 kg
Gatling Twin-Barrel
Available at 5/4/4/-/-
Damage 300
Velocity 180
Energy 12/dual blast
Delay current GC (fires 2 shots)
Mass 1400 kg
First two variants would have the current GC's autoaim, the twin barrel would have no autoaim. I'm still not a fan of doubling the GC's output (spray 'n pray, anyone?), but this way we'd fit both ideas in a hopefully balanced manner.