Forums » Suggestions

Nerf the Moth.... now.

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Jan 26, 2006 LeadFist link
Nerf threads are so predictable. Every online game eventually has'em. 'Nerf the ABC gun or XYZ vehicle 'cuz it is too powerful and I die too much when going up against it.'

Do various real-world militaries cry foul when their opponent comes out with a superior weapon? Perhaps. But more likely, they change their tactics, equipment loadouts/capabilities or numbers of units and regain the advantage.

Part of the joys of gaming with other people online is figuring out ways to turn the tables on annoying SOB's and rendering their once uber tactics and equipment useless.

Guild: For the love of your favorite diety, do not start neutering ships and weapons because a few people opt for the easy way out of challenging situations.
Jan 26, 2006 BoxCarRacer link
I'm w/ spellcast.

Not because it killed cunjo in a 1v1 but cause it should require an escort.
But definately keep the armor.
If anything double the armor and make it REALLY slow.
That should improve group play considerably.

Basically like everyone wanted CTC to be.
Jan 26, 2006 jkloos link
The best part of last night was that ghost was actually not running in and swarming. He was sitting still it was cunjo doing the running and swarming. and i did see ghost fighting in ships other than a moth. crazy.
Jan 26, 2006 Person link
Has anyone ever tried using a Prom MkII with megaposi and dual gauss against a moth? It's not fast enough to chase a player, but it can catch+kill the convoy moths REALLY quickly, and it can easily take down a weapon-moth. I've popped many a missile platform, (and quite a few rags,) with it.
Jan 26, 2006 Cunjo link
BoxCar:
Let's not forget that we still want it to be able to serve a purpose: namely, being able to transport large quantities of cargo faster than, say a 'taur.

You cut its speed too drastically, and nobody will want to use it because
a) it's too slow
b) it's inefficient
c) it's indefensible
d) it's too slow

That's why I'm against nerfing the top speed... Thrust I'm okay with, but if you're going to nerf the top speed, at least increase the cargo hold to compensate.

and why the hell are we trying to turn 'mothing into CtCing? two, totally different activities, people... moths are for trading - CtC is for fightig over.

jkloos/P13:
my first flight was in a rail hornet w/no ammo, which I was only bringing to the station, then I switched to another test loadout - a NEUTRON rag. Furthermore, I was there for NPC 'voys, and did not engage ghostwolff until a double flight of his swarms were already loosed and closing on me. Besides which, even after ghostwolff started spamming me, I spent most of my time blowing you up with AGT and flares. So you can stop your bullshit now, do us all a favor and STFU.

Chikira:
I've had ghostwolff on /ignore for over a month. The problem isn't that he's spamming me, bt that he's doing so with relative impunity because of a grossly-overpowered moth which he likes to exploit. The solution to both HIM and any other players whom start exploiting it too in the future, is to remove the opportunity to do so by NERFING THE MOTH.

A-Dawg:
YOU threw rails/AGT/flares/jacks screamers/gems at him - none of this 'we'; I only used Neutrons on ghostwolff in the earlier fights and then switched to swarms to counter after he'd been a pain in the ass for a sufficient time. =P
Jan 26, 2006 CrippledPidgeon link
Well, after experimenting, I think that a ragnarok probably has the best chance of taking on a swarm-spamming Moth 1-to-1. I was playing with a rag that had a combination of rails, gems, and swarms. Use the gems to keep the missile warning beeping, rails for picking off armor as the moth turbos away, and swarms when you get close to it. But it's not easy. Okay, really hard, especially when the swarm moth can actually get away faster than the rag simply on acceleration. Once you hit around 160 or 170, just change directions and the rag just coasts away because it's turbo thrust isn't as high.

Now if we had missiles that could go faster than any ship's max turbo (but requiring that the target require in the reticle until the missile hits), then the spamming moth would fall a lot faster.
Jan 26, 2006 jkloos link
your full of it cunjo you swarmed first dude get over it. and quit crying your eyes out over this.
Jan 27, 2006 Spellcast link
cunjo.. its cargo hold is allready TWICE the size of its nearest competitor, (and that is the level 13 trade maud)

if it takes TWICE as long to make a trip its still faster because the other ship has to fly BACK to the originating station. (well it could explode, but i still think the whole 'home station' thing needs to be looked at)

to take twice as long its speed would have to be cut to 100m/s, so at 160m/s it would still be able to do any given 1-way trade run in approximately 33% MORE time, but its carrying (at least)TWICE the cargo.

You will NEVER make it inefficient without cutting the minimum speed to 90m/s.
Slowing it down makes it easier to escort, and in nation space it shouldnt need escorts anyway.

As for it being too slow, its still WAY faster than the next best alternative on a cargo per time unit basis.

as far as why the moth and CtC are being compared, YOU brought up the idea of the moth needing escorts. at 180m/s its going to have a hard time keeping its escorts around it and giving them the chance to deal with attackers.
Jan 27, 2006 UncleDave link
if the top speed gets nerfed, moths will be nothing but hive-bait in storms.

the turbo thrust could stand to take a hit, though.
Jan 27, 2006 Spellcast link
if the top speed gets nerfed, moths will be nothing but hive-bait in storms.

thats what the hive hunt missions are for dave. remember the hive is changing, stations will offer money to clear out the hive along direct routes between them and wormholes, and from wormhole to wormhole. NPC's will take the missions when humans dont.
Jan 27, 2006 Renegade xxRIPxx link
clearing out the hive will be impossible since that would stop any missions for being able to be done.

if they get neutered, then the game will intensify their efforts to populate the universe. If they will not be neutered then the game will just contineu with the normal growthpattern. (exactly as a demand - supply curve).

So using that as rebuttal for daves point is pointless... since it would make the game eventless and optionless.

i would still prefer a lower turbothrust. Although doubling the armour and setting the speed to 150-160 might be interesting. Still in the end the moth is still only a small tradingship that should not require escorts. If you want such ship then the moth should have been made without any weapons. A slow enough speed so escorts can actually catch up and have an option of defending it without it turning into a gank the escorted ship. Which any ship (except the moth) carrying tradegoods is.
Jan 27, 2006 Spellcast link
clearing out the hive will be impossible since that would stop any missions for being able to be done.

clearing the hive out of asteroid sectors and such will certaintly be possible. That was the entire point of the new hive in sedina, to allow a more robust PvE environment where players could make a difference (short term, a day or so) in where the hive had a presence. Bastions and Strongolds will need to get MUCH more powerful and lots harder to clear out, but being able to clear a trade route of the mining groups is certaintly within the scope of the new hive and the hive hunt missions.

Especially if the stations act logically and place a priority on the hive hunts in sectors on a direct route between them and a wormhole. Possibly with a slightly boosted reward for those sectors.

Incidentally I'm for slowing down ALL the tradeships; most to around 180, with the moth cut back to about 160. Make the mauds the exception with a 190 top speed and the topline TPG/valent specials 200.
Jan 27, 2006 Renegade xxRIPxx link
spellcast, the objective should be to clear them out, but if it would be possible to clear them all out the hive would be annihilated rending any further missions impossible.

You ae right that it will be pretty easy to do so in nation space. But in border grey space it will be hard to do (although not impossible). However in sedina (seeing as i presumed that system to be the grand 'hive' it would be impossible since you need to keep a bastion to repopulate the other sectors from). The bug to make them go all haywire doesn't exist anymore... unless i read the story incorrectly. That was the reason why i stated that clearing the hive out completely will be impossible. Otherwise we would have done that already eons ago.

I still consider most tradeships to be vulnerable enough while clogged down with tradegoods, but i might just be biased... seeing as i don't like losing the money, time and investment for undertaking traderuns, seeing that tradeships are already severely less powerfull then hteir combative counterparts, and prying from them the nly other option of escape is kinda turning them into a bulls eye and i fear will work counterproductive. Ergo nobody trading rending the game even more tiresome. (that was the case during part of alpha, and in which many pierats complained, but i don't wanna go and discuss that again, everybody knows my stance on pieratting)
Jan 27, 2006 Will Roberts link
- I don't agree to nerfing the Moth. Loaded (and used like it's supposed to be), it's very sluggish and slow. Making it through a storm sector with a load of ion cores is very dependent on getting up to speed and on-course before the assaults and guardians get to you.

- As for (non-trader) Swarm-Moths in B8, in my opinion, that's just a symptom of a larger issue, not really on topic in this thread.
Jan 27, 2006 UncleDave link
spell- i wasnt aware the thread title was

"Nerf the Moth.... Later"
Jan 27, 2006 Spellcast link
spellcast, the objective should be to clear them out, but if it would be possible to clear them all out the hive would be annihilated rending any further missions impossible. - Renegade

Go re-read my last post. You dont need to clear them ALL out, just the ones on the direct trade lanes. thats between ~1/10th(pelatus, the least populated sector) and ~1/3rd (dau, most stations in sector) of the asteroid sectors in any given system.

certaintly the new hive will menace trade routes occasionally, thats part of the danger that the game is supposed to have. You can still always plot courses around asteroid fields to avoid storms if you really dont want to get caught in them.

I still consider most tradeships to be vulnerable enough while clogged down with tradegoods, but i might just be biased... seeing as i don't like losing the money, time and investment for undertaking traderuns, seeing that tradeships are already severely less powerfull then hteir combative counterparts, and prying from them the nly other option of escape is kinda turning them into a bulls eye and i fear will work counterproductive. -renegade

You are biased, I am biased, we are all biased, but i actually consider myslelf a combative trader renegade, i defend myself, but i'm not usually actively hostile.

Slowing tradeships down would allow for a better ESCORTING system, which is an option thats not availible now because of the sheer speed of all the tradeships.
Have you ever tried to gaurd a moth, centaur, or maud against active opponents across several systems renegade? Its almost impossible to defend them because it becomes a race to catch them between the attacker and the defender. eventually the attacker will win the race because of a wormhole or other jump randomizing the positions. A slower tradeship will mean a faster catchup, and more time with defeders in place.

And as far as i'm concerned the price of all ships and equipment is still way too low for everything but the mk1 variants of the wraith, atlas, centurion, vulture, and hornet. (and the bus of course)

Ergo nobody trading rending the game even more tiresome. (that was the case during part of alpha, and in which many pierats complained, but i don't wanna go and discuss that again, everybody knows my stance on pieratting)-renegade

different universe, different time, different circumstances.

and for the record no-one traded in alpha because of the money-bugs.. when noobs get 100,000,000 credits handed to them because cash is so common there is no reason TO trade.

We're wandering off topic again... There is a perfectly good, logical, realistic reason for tradeships to be slower, its the same reason cargo vessels are slower in real life. The fastest propulsion systems are ALWAYS more expensive (both to build , maintain, and operate) than a somewhat slower system. Cargo carriers are optimized to cost effectiveness and cargo volume with only a few very rare exceptions*.

Cargo ships should be slower, with slightly larger volumes, maybe a bit more armor, and much more expensive.
trade goods should have a much larger range of prices, going from the basic goods we have now all the way up to some truely valuable items with very high purchase prices, something that you buy for 40,000 credits a cu with a possibility of selling for 60,000/cu on the other side of the known universe. (something from pelatus that sells very well over in deneb/giera) dammit i'm wandering again.

DAVE, i have an idea, lets do a knee jerk stopgap measure that will be obsolete in a few months.....

ORRRRRR we could take into account the way the hive is headed.

refusing to slow down the moth because of the hive in ion storms is a really dumb reason even if they werent planning to redo the hive.
Jan 27, 2006 CrazySpence link
I dont think the moths hull is too powerful as I have been losing almost all of my moths in the new escort missions on the test server every day as a matter of fact I had a 10 transport convoy that got ripped apart by an uber corvus squadron in less than 30 seconds but I dont believe they should carry offensive weapons and if they must then only mines, however we havent had mine ports since 3.1 so *shrugs*

perhaps a slight speed reduction too because even my 220m/s hog takes some time to catchup to my moths I am supposed to be escorting!
Jan 27, 2006 BoxCarRacer link
"and why the hell are we trying to turn 'mothing into CtCing? two, totally different activities, people... moths are for trading - CtC is for fightig over."

Cunjo,
Moths are not for fighting over why?
Because they are too hard to kill.
Slow them down and then ppl will want to fight over them.
Then the pilots will want to protect them.... thus hiring escorts.
Thus creating conflict.

CTC is not as different as you think.
Just gotta open your mind.
O_O
Jan 27, 2006 Cunjo link
BoxCar:
my point was we don't WANT People to fight over moths, unless they're legitimate pirates who do so for a living.

CP:
My point exactly - the thrust on the moth is TOO ****ING HIGH if it can out-accel a ragnarok. Top speed is not the issue - the accel is.

CrazySp:
Perhaps this would be a good time to re-suggest utlity ports? then you could limit the moth to two large utility ports... of course, mines would fit to utility ports rather than weapon ones.
The NPC moth traders are useless... they don't have the armaments or brains to defend themselves like a player does, and of course the NPC fighters are overpowered, and far more efficient at killing moths than human players given the same weapons (go fig)

Spell:
Sure, it takes a hell of a nerf to make time alone make it inadequate... but then, a 20-minte trip of flying in a faster, more maneuverable ship is less painfully boring than a 10-minute trip in a supernerfed slow-ass moth... that was my point.

I'd also like to point out that I am all for keeping the moth as a single-player trade vessel, making it more vulnerable by cutting down on thrust and armor, but not so vulnerable that it needs a designated escort at all times. I'd much rather see even larger haulers introduced which fit that defenceless role, and keep the moth as the primary single-player hauler. You could even go so far as to introduce more capships down the line that are designed for commerce and require defense flights.

Capital ships should serve more purposes than purely combat, don't you think?

jkloos:
STFU, seriously...
nobody believes you, and nobody cares.
Jan 27, 2006 Renegade xxRIPxx link
I consider the word hive as being the totality of all the hive infected systems. Next i would also doubt that the menacing of traderoutes is going to be only occasional, i rather think that those will be very interesting for the hive. Still thats only navelgazing.

[quote]
Have you ever tried to gaurd a moth, centaur, or maud against active opponents across several systems renegade? Its almost impossible to defend them because it becomes a race to catch them between the attacker and the defender. eventually the attacker
will win the race because of a wormhole or other jump randomizing the positions. A slower tradeship will mean a faster catchup, and more time with defeders in place.
[/quote]

actually i never bothered because i don't consider them in need of escorting. They are still only single player oriented vessels which are self provisiant. Although the moth is borderlining it. Which was the reason why i considered it interesting the idea of tuning down the speed to a lesser amount for them, but not for all tradeships. The ships that really should have escorts should be weaponless. In worst case scenario a moth should only be protected by 2 people, otherwise the profit you get out of it is not worth the investment (or the alternant traderoutes).

Anyway you consider that a different universe, time whatever, but like i said its my opinion and I haven't noticed anything that doesn't repeat itself in a similar fashion. I even doubt that the bug was present at that time, seeing that it was close to begin release (at the moment that the triflare valks were the fastest ships available).

Anyway its a game, and not everything needs to be an exact replica to the real world. especially not seeing that we are talking about living on osme alien world and exploring in spaceships distant galaxies millions of miles away. Besides, there is already a diversification in speed, its only less severe as you want it to be.