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Obviously broken? That's just your opinion, isn't it? As far as I can tell both sides have made valid arguments up to this point. The only complaining I see is in your post.
I actually kinda enjoy reading heated debates like this about game balance. It's fun because people actually care enough about the game to argue over the effects of changing the spread, shots per second, or mass of a single high level weapon.
I actually kinda enjoy reading heated debates like this about game balance. It's fun because people actually care enough about the game to argue over the effects of changing the spread, shots per second, or mass of a single high level weapon.
Shape:
I'm assuming to take your challenge I'd need to be flying sans-AGT myself... but what ship would you be equipping it on? because if it's not a hog, prom or dual-GT taur, I really don't think I'd have too great a difficulty fighting it in a cent, vult or MP TD.
Sure, you'd probably kick my ass in the end, but that's a given... I'd still probably be able to do considerable damage first.
The trouble is not JUST the AGT. the real trouble is that it can be put on insanely maneuverable ships, and the ships still retain good maneuverability.
The AGT needs ot be heavier - MUCH heavier. Because, franky, even if you COULD get in close to an AGT hog or prom, you'd STILL have trouble hitting it.
I'm assuming to take your challenge I'd need to be flying sans-AGT myself... but what ship would you be equipping it on? because if it's not a hog, prom or dual-GT taur, I really don't think I'd have too great a difficulty fighting it in a cent, vult or MP TD.
Sure, you'd probably kick my ass in the end, but that's a given... I'd still probably be able to do considerable damage first.
The trouble is not JUST the AGT. the real trouble is that it can be put on insanely maneuverable ships, and the ships still retain good maneuverability.
The AGT needs ot be heavier - MUCH heavier. Because, franky, even if you COULD get in close to an AGT hog or prom, you'd STILL have trouble hitting it.
Phaserlight says : I actually kinda enjoy reading heated debates like this about game balance.
Heh, there is no accounting for taste.
Phaserlight : It's fun because people actually care enough about the game to argue over the effects of changing the spread, shots per second, or mass of a single high level weapon.
Might be more fun if all this argument actually have an effect on game balance.
Heh, there is no accounting for taste.
Phaserlight : It's fun because people actually care enough about the game to argue over the effects of changing the spread, shots per second, or mass of a single high level weapon.
Might be more fun if all this argument actually have an effect on game balance.
The trouble is not JUST the AGT. the real trouble is that it can be put on insanely maneuverable ships, and the ships still retain good maneuverability.
I've never heard of anyone referring to the Hog as an insanely maneuverable ship.
I've never heard of anyone referring to the Hog as an insanely maneuverable ship.
INDEED
I have to modify the control variable just to keep the nose from jumping all about.
I have to modify the control variable just to keep the nose from jumping all about.
Cunjo, I'll offer the same challenge as shape. I'll go further. I could put the AGT on ANY Atlas, wraith or cent and still win a much larger than average percentage against any light ship.
"I've never heard of anyone referring to the Hog as an insanely maneuverable ship."
you must not listen much then, or at least read only selectively. The Hog TD being overpowered is a very common complaint, especially when it involves an AGT and flares. An AGT hog is harder to hit than an AGT Agresso, and in many cases, a (non-SCP) prom.
"Cunjo, I'll offer the same challenge as shape. I'll go further. I could put the AGT on ANY Atlas, wraith or cent and still win a much larger than average percentage against any light ship."
Tumble, I'll take you up on that... the next time you find me online. As a bonus, if you can find a way to put an AGT on a cent, I'll even buy your insurance. Seriously though, I'll take on your Atlas of DOOM with my Rev C... we shall see.
you must not listen much then, or at least read only selectively. The Hog TD being overpowered is a very common complaint, especially when it involves an AGT and flares. An AGT hog is harder to hit than an AGT Agresso, and in many cases, a (non-SCP) prom.
"Cunjo, I'll offer the same challenge as shape. I'll go further. I could put the AGT on ANY Atlas, wraith or cent and still win a much larger than average percentage against any light ship."
Tumble, I'll take you up on that... the next time you find me online. As a bonus, if you can find a way to put an AGT on a cent, I'll even buy your insurance. Seriously though, I'll take on your Atlas of DOOM with my Rev C... we shall see.
hehe.
Some of you saying Hogs are not maneuverable have not fought Shape in his posi Hog. Or Tramshed in his Gauss-PlasDev hog for that matter.
Some of you saying Hogs are not maneuverable have not fought Shape in his posi Hog. Or Tramshed in his Gauss-PlasDev hog for that matter.
softy: but has it ever been referred to as an insanely maneuverable ship?
Sure, it's maneuverable when it's not heavily loaded, but it's still not nearly as maneuverable as the vulture or centurion. If you were to load two positron cannons onto an IBG, an SVG, and a TD: the IBG would weigh 4000kg with 218N thrust; the SVG would weigh 4800kg with 235N thrust; and the TD would weigh 6300kg with 220N thrust.
The IBG still edges out by having proportionally higher thrust for its weight, the SVG follows in a close second, and the TD trails rather far behind. Without doing any calculations, you can see that the IBG and TD have nearly the same thrust, but the TD weighs a lot more (2300kg). The only thing the TD gains is the fact that it's carrying a megaposi which does 50% more damage than the standard posi.
So while the Hog TD is good, it's still not as maneuverable as the IBG or the SVG, and it's really not all that special with the AGT. The lack of maneuverability due to loading the AGT is made up by the AGT's autoaim, but its armor is nothing special, and a good burst of neutrons will take it down quickly.
Sure, it's maneuverable when it's not heavily loaded, but it's still not nearly as maneuverable as the vulture or centurion. If you were to load two positron cannons onto an IBG, an SVG, and a TD: the IBG would weigh 4000kg with 218N thrust; the SVG would weigh 4800kg with 235N thrust; and the TD would weigh 6300kg with 220N thrust.
The IBG still edges out by having proportionally higher thrust for its weight, the SVG follows in a close second, and the TD trails rather far behind. Without doing any calculations, you can see that the IBG and TD have nearly the same thrust, but the TD weighs a lot more (2300kg). The only thing the TD gains is the fact that it's carrying a megaposi which does 50% more damage than the standard posi.
So while the Hog TD is good, it's still not as maneuverable as the IBG or the SVG, and it's really not all that special with the AGT. The lack of maneuverability due to loading the AGT is made up by the AGT's autoaim, but its armor is nothing special, and a good burst of neutrons will take it down quickly.
CP :
I didn't say hogs are more maneuverably than IBGs or Vults. What I am saying is however, it is a lot more maneuverable than you think. And that even with blasters, it can be pretty deadly. The reason people don't think that it is maneuverable is the title of this topic : the AGT. Heavy (hogs/atlas etc) pilots plonk in an AGT, and suddenly they don't need to really push the hog/atlas anymore. Why learn all the tricks if you have a gun that does not need aiming.
I am not even a Hog/Atlas pilot. I fly lights. But I can beat vults with decent pilots (like Rene, sorry dude) with a posi-atlases. I plonk in an AGT to a Hog, and I can take out almost everyone in lights save the "special ones" (hi Niki!). Now, I can't stop you from thinking that the AGT is fine, so I am not even going to try anymore.
Cause.... if everyone is convinced that the AGT is broken, it's not going to matter. Because nothing is going to be done for like, say, 18 months?
I didn't say hogs are more maneuverably than IBGs or Vults. What I am saying is however, it is a lot more maneuverable than you think. And that even with blasters, it can be pretty deadly. The reason people don't think that it is maneuverable is the title of this topic : the AGT. Heavy (hogs/atlas etc) pilots plonk in an AGT, and suddenly they don't need to really push the hog/atlas anymore. Why learn all the tricks if you have a gun that does not need aiming.
I am not even a Hog/Atlas pilot. I fly lights. But I can beat vults with decent pilots (like Rene, sorry dude) with a posi-atlases. I plonk in an AGT to a Hog, and I can take out almost everyone in lights save the "special ones" (hi Niki!). Now, I can't stop you from thinking that the AGT is fine, so I am not even going to try anymore.
Cause.... if everyone is convinced that the AGT is broken, it's not going to matter. Because nothing is going to be done for like, say, 18 months?
softy is right, the AGT doesn't force you to push the boundaries of the hog, so you can get away with a lot more sloppiness than you can flying, say, a vulture.
I find the hog to be fine for most energy fights, it keeps up. Its issue is flares, not blasters. And when you use AGT+flare, your flares tend to neutralize the effectiveness of theirs.
I find the hog to be fine for most energy fights, it keeps up. Its issue is flares, not blasters. And when you use AGT+flare, your flares tend to neutralize the effectiveness of theirs.
Hogs are not maneuverable.
Increase the thrust on a hog to about 280n.
Get out the ol' nerf bat and whack the AGT.
It's all good.
Increase the thrust on a hog to about 280n.
Get out the ol' nerf bat and whack the AGT.
It's all good.
"Increase the thrust on a hog to about 280n."
Only if you want to make it so that nobody EVER uses a Vulture again!
Hogs are Medium Assault ships - they're not SUPPOSED to be as maneuverable as a light fighter, and for the love of God, the LAST thing they need is more thrust with which to weild AGTs.
Only if you want to make it so that nobody EVER uses a Vulture again!
Hogs are Medium Assault ships - they're not SUPPOSED to be as maneuverable as a light fighter, and for the love of God, the LAST thing they need is more thrust with which to weild AGTs.
Why not just drop the damage of the AGT?
Cunjo,
Hogs suck.
So do vultures.
OR,
Proms rock.
So do IBG's/valks.
Untill this game transforms from a deathmatch into a mmoRPg, noone will like the idea of flying the less than top notch ship.
I mean sure some fly them to pwn noobs for prowess and such.
But really this whole conversation on balance is kinda pointless.
Nothings gonna change till the new UI comes out.
At this time, missions will be introduced giving the game some actual character, and maybe reasons that justify flying the less than top notch ships being flown.
Depends on where the Devs take the story line, and how it influences us.
Hogs suck.
So do vultures.
OR,
Proms rock.
So do IBG's/valks.
Untill this game transforms from a deathmatch into a mmoRPg, noone will like the idea of flying the less than top notch ship.
I mean sure some fly them to pwn noobs for prowess and such.
But really this whole conversation on balance is kinda pointless.
Nothings gonna change till the new UI comes out.
At this time, missions will be introduced giving the game some actual character, and maybe reasons that justify flying the less than top notch ships being flown.
Depends on where the Devs take the story line, and how it influences us.
[OOC} correct me if my following suggestion is off, wont work, has previously been suggested, or has been previously attempted. I don't know all of the facts, just some of them.[/BIC]
Originally, the Gatling and AGT were supposed to be large ammo-suckers, but becasue rapid ammunition consumption tended towards packet loss (and through it, inconsistancied between the ammo count of the server and client). Rather than toss the weapon entirely, the devs altered the gatlings into energy-weapons, because this was already closely watched by the server and was less likely to cause significant difficulties. However, without an ammunition limit as initially intended, the AGT has become a weapon of choice for extended firefights in highly maueverable L-port ships. The following suggestion, which may or may not work, is an idea I had for solving the problem (although this may have been tried before....)
My thought was, that rather than have the Gatling weapons fire in a continuous stream, like they do now, have them fire in bursts. Each burst immediatly subracts x-amount of ammunition from your reserves, then fires these shots over a set period of time (a similar effect is emplyed with Swarms and Gemnis, where more than one shot is fired in each volley). You cannot fire again until the initial 'Burst' has finished due to cooldown, which prevents the weapon from firing too quickly--and confusing the server. While not perfect, this solution could theoretically limit Gatling usage whilst maintaining the illusion of continuous fire.
Mind you, I have no clue as to the physics or programing behind this. For all I know it is either impossible or too difficult to program into the current engine, or even if the server can handle it. Oh well, just a thought.
Originally, the Gatling and AGT were supposed to be large ammo-suckers, but becasue rapid ammunition consumption tended towards packet loss (and through it, inconsistancied between the ammo count of the server and client). Rather than toss the weapon entirely, the devs altered the gatlings into energy-weapons, because this was already closely watched by the server and was less likely to cause significant difficulties. However, without an ammunition limit as initially intended, the AGT has become a weapon of choice for extended firefights in highly maueverable L-port ships. The following suggestion, which may or may not work, is an idea I had for solving the problem (although this may have been tried before....)
My thought was, that rather than have the Gatling weapons fire in a continuous stream, like they do now, have them fire in bursts. Each burst immediatly subracts x-amount of ammunition from your reserves, then fires these shots over a set period of time (a similar effect is emplyed with Swarms and Gemnis, where more than one shot is fired in each volley). You cannot fire again until the initial 'Burst' has finished due to cooldown, which prevents the weapon from firing too quickly--and confusing the server. While not perfect, this solution could theoretically limit Gatling usage whilst maintaining the illusion of continuous fire.
Mind you, I have no clue as to the physics or programing behind this. For all I know it is either impossible or too difficult to program into the current engine, or even if the server can handle it. Oh well, just a thought.
*bump*
I like the idea of giving it limited ammo. I've heard different thing about whether this could/could not be done, or how, or whatever, but the defensive advantage the AGT grants would do well to be stemmed, even at the heavier weight it has now.
I like the idea of giving it limited ammo. I've heard different thing about whether this could/could not be done, or how, or whatever, but the defensive advantage the AGT grants would do well to be stemmed, even at the heavier weight it has now.