Forums » Suggestions
A bunch of us were chatting ingame last night, and we came up with a couple of ideas for a change to the Behemoth that could be beneficial to gameplay balance. I know this has been discussed before, but I think I have an interesting angle to approach from.
First, let me start by saying that I love the Behemoth. I'm a trader, it's my baby. It got me 1100 Serco standing in under 45 minutes.
Quite simply, it is the be-all and end-all of noncombat ships, and though it breaks my greedy little TGFT heart to say it, that's a bad thing. It's good on a personal level, but in terms of game balance, it serves to reduce the variety of ships we see on a daily basis patrolling the spacelanes, which makes the game, well, boring.
My solution to this problem is simple: Cut out all of the Behemoth's weapon ports. When it comes down to it, the Behemoth is a heavy hauler. It's not a heavy mining ship. and it's not a massive, swarm-spewing missile platform. It's a heavy hauler - extremely good at what it does, but in return, extremely specialized and thus limited.
By cutting out all of the weapon ports, we would solve two existing debacles involving the Moth.
1) Greyspace hauler
As it stands today, a Moth can usually get away from even the most determined pirate, perhaps letting loose with some chaos swarms or mines to keep them off its tail, and still taking a hit or two, but generally passing through B8 alive. Without weapons ports, this would still be possible, just more difficult, as you literally have nothing to fend off aggressors. No mines, no swarms, no dual gats (thank god).
To make the transit to greyspace systems reliably, an unarmed maud would either have to hire escorts, be a member of a guild, or take his chances and hope that the pie-rats would accept his bribe/be too far away to chase him down. This would, in turn, inspire increased guild activity and greater reliance upon escorts for safe passage.
2) UltraMiner
We have dedicated minings ships in this world. Problem is that nobody uses them. Why? Because the Moth can carry two large-port beams, and holds such a ridiculous amount of cargo that to mine in any other ship is just stupid. Removing the ability to mount mining beams on the Moth (which, I might add, looks silly anyhow, as the beams often cut through the front of the model) would encourage mining as a team. One player has a ship with a mining beam, the other flies a Moth and picks up the cargo the miner gathers, carrying it home and splitting the profits. If tradeguild missions were offered to groups, and rewards were split between all members of the group, this would work even better, but I digress.
In short, removing the weapons ports would help the game by increasing the variety of ships in space, and encouraging guild and group-oriented gameplay.
First, let me start by saying that I love the Behemoth. I'm a trader, it's my baby. It got me 1100 Serco standing in under 45 minutes.
Quite simply, it is the be-all and end-all of noncombat ships, and though it breaks my greedy little TGFT heart to say it, that's a bad thing. It's good on a personal level, but in terms of game balance, it serves to reduce the variety of ships we see on a daily basis patrolling the spacelanes, which makes the game, well, boring.
My solution to this problem is simple: Cut out all of the Behemoth's weapon ports. When it comes down to it, the Behemoth is a heavy hauler. It's not a heavy mining ship. and it's not a massive, swarm-spewing missile platform. It's a heavy hauler - extremely good at what it does, but in return, extremely specialized and thus limited.
By cutting out all of the weapon ports, we would solve two existing debacles involving the Moth.
1) Greyspace hauler
As it stands today, a Moth can usually get away from even the most determined pirate, perhaps letting loose with some chaos swarms or mines to keep them off its tail, and still taking a hit or two, but generally passing through B8 alive. Without weapons ports, this would still be possible, just more difficult, as you literally have nothing to fend off aggressors. No mines, no swarms, no dual gats (thank god).
To make the transit to greyspace systems reliably, an unarmed maud would either have to hire escorts, be a member of a guild, or take his chances and hope that the pie-rats would accept his bribe/be too far away to chase him down. This would, in turn, inspire increased guild activity and greater reliance upon escorts for safe passage.
2) UltraMiner
We have dedicated minings ships in this world. Problem is that nobody uses them. Why? Because the Moth can carry two large-port beams, and holds such a ridiculous amount of cargo that to mine in any other ship is just stupid. Removing the ability to mount mining beams on the Moth (which, I might add, looks silly anyhow, as the beams often cut through the front of the model) would encourage mining as a team. One player has a ship with a mining beam, the other flies a Moth and picks up the cargo the miner gathers, carrying it home and splitting the profits. If tradeguild missions were offered to groups, and rewards were split between all members of the group, this would work even better, but I digress.
In short, removing the weapons ports would help the game by increasing the variety of ships in space, and encouraging guild and group-oriented gameplay.
Mining in the current moth also encourages team mining, since you need someone with a scanner. ;-)
Name one ship in which the mining beams -don't- project out of an odd place on the model...
Moths need ports like everything does. No, the solution is not to remove the ports.. the solution is to specialize them further by including varients with different areas of strength/weakness, all of which less of an all-around impregnable solution than the current moth.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/12071#146586 Moth Thread (search is a wonderful thing)
The armor will go, or the speed will go, and perhaps in places, both. The moth is intended to become vulnerable soon, and mining varients are not out of the question.
Moths need ports like everything does. No, the solution is not to remove the ports.. the solution is to specialize them further by including varients with different areas of strength/weakness, all of which less of an all-around impregnable solution than the current moth.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/12071#146586 Moth Thread (search is a wonderful thing)
The armor will go, or the speed will go, and perhaps in places, both. The moth is intended to become vulnerable soon, and mining varients are not out of the question.
make it so there are more then one verson, the mining verson, has 2 l-ports, but is much, much slower, not thrust-wise, but with a max trubo speed of 120.
the other verson, is the one we have now, without the l-ports.
the other verson, is the one we have now, without the l-ports.
I agree, all that needs to be done is for the devs to make a "Behemoth Mineral Extractor" and then a "Behemoth Crago Ship"
However I think we should let the devs make the decisions on the exsact stats of each model.
However I think we should let the devs make the decisions on the exsact stats of each model.
I disagree. Why do we need the Behemoth to be the be-all and end-all of everything that doesn't involve shooting people? If we want to see more variety in what people are flying, the other ships need to have a purpose, and making the Behemoth do everything better than every other noncombat ship isn't going to do that. Why have noncombat ships that require higher levels than the Moth, if nobody's ever going to fly them? What's to work for? A single, perfect solution for cargo, mining and everything else is boring.
Killing moths is possible right now...
....sorta
It takes a specialized "moth-killing ship"
a moth pilot who ignores the virtues of packing mines/repairing
and a hefty amount of luck
if you don't have all these things, it doesn't work.
Compare this to a trading centaur/maud/atlas, its entirely different. I can catch any of those in a vulture, cent, hog, etc...
the behemoth still takes the heart out of real piracy. Nobody drops their cargo to attempt a fight, as they might with any of the other trading ships, nor do they bring escorts (except in events where they are specifically TRYING to encourage piracy, and where the moth pilots are often quite generous in their tactics against pirates)
I was chatting with "?" as we sat in B8 waiting for "food", and we saw a few traders pass through, we discussed the prevalence of non-moth traders that day, and bemoaned the fact that they would be replaced by moth-traders the moment that those pilots got the levels for it.
I'm all for it, remove the weapon ports, and do some other things to it as well.
ctishman is absolutely right, where is the replay value in a game which has perfect ships?
....sorta
It takes a specialized "moth-killing ship"
a moth pilot who ignores the virtues of packing mines/repairing
and a hefty amount of luck
if you don't have all these things, it doesn't work.
Compare this to a trading centaur/maud/atlas, its entirely different. I can catch any of those in a vulture, cent, hog, etc...
the behemoth still takes the heart out of real piracy. Nobody drops their cargo to attempt a fight, as they might with any of the other trading ships, nor do they bring escorts (except in events where they are specifically TRYING to encourage piracy, and where the moth pilots are often quite generous in their tactics against pirates)
I was chatting with "?" as we sat in B8 waiting for "food", and we saw a few traders pass through, we discussed the prevalence of non-moth traders that day, and bemoaned the fact that they would be replaced by moth-traders the moment that those pilots got the levels for it.
I'm all for it, remove the weapon ports, and do some other things to it as well.
ctishman is absolutely right, where is the replay value in a game which has perfect ships?
As much as stripping the moth of its ports, a limitation to the types of weapons it can carry is an idea, only defensive, also bringing down topspeed and weapons makes the moth nothing more then a sitting duck.
By the way, if a downgraded moth has to inspire more (trade)guild activity, why shouldn't leaving the moth as it is inspire the pirates to working together more. If its hard to kill a moth on your one maybe you should go after it in pairs, take turns, its not hard to catch up a fully loaded moth in a reasonable fast ship. This at the same time will force mothpilots to hire escorts or increase the need for more player convoys, not just in events.
Why is always changing specs to ships suggested as the solution as we as players in changing tacticts have much more influence on balancing the game then we think.
Jamay Cheers
By the way, if a downgraded moth has to inspire more (trade)guild activity, why shouldn't leaving the moth as it is inspire the pirates to working together more. If its hard to kill a moth on your one maybe you should go after it in pairs, take turns, its not hard to catch up a fully loaded moth in a reasonable fast ship. This at the same time will force mothpilots to hire escorts or increase the need for more player convoys, not just in events.
Why is always changing specs to ships suggested as the solution as we as players in changing tacticts have much more influence on balancing the game then we think.
Jamay Cheers
jascha, we've had a long time, and the moth, even without wep ports, is no sitting duck, it moves, and it has the armor to absorb ANYTHING.
piracy is a lonely biz, we make about a hundreth of what traders make, and that's IF we catch a moth.
If you start splitting it, we make a lot less.
And still the point remains, what are the purposes of the other ships?
where is the diversity?
where is the danger to traders, and subsequently, the thrill of trading in grey space?
why is it that people who've never tried piracy are convinced that we haven't exhausted our options?
it is STILL impossible to take down a moth carrying mines.
Moths STILL are the only trading ships in grey
Grey STILL is not dangerous, at all
and people are STILL suggesting the same tactics that they were suggesting 3 months ago, tactics which we have tried, quite often.
But if a trader can trade alone, a pirate ought to be able to make some business pirating alone. The fact is that, at the moment, the pirate makes none, and the trader walks off with a fat sack of change for essentially hitting turbolock.
piracy is a lonely biz, we make about a hundreth of what traders make, and that's IF we catch a moth.
If you start splitting it, we make a lot less.
And still the point remains, what are the purposes of the other ships?
where is the diversity?
where is the danger to traders, and subsequently, the thrill of trading in grey space?
why is it that people who've never tried piracy are convinced that we haven't exhausted our options?
it is STILL impossible to take down a moth carrying mines.
Moths STILL are the only trading ships in grey
Grey STILL is not dangerous, at all
and people are STILL suggesting the same tactics that they were suggesting 3 months ago, tactics which we have tried, quite often.
But if a trader can trade alone, a pirate ought to be able to make some business pirating alone. The fact is that, at the moment, the pirate makes none, and the trader walks off with a fat sack of change for essentially hitting turbolock.
Okay, you've convinced me, the moth should have a lower top cruising speed, I hate flying moths; I have a hard time docking them with out slamming into the station.
However, slower speeds means that longer trade routes will take longer to complete. I don't trade much so it won't bother me. Exactly how long does it take for a moth to get from one side of the galaxy to the other?
However, slower speeds means that longer trade routes will take longer to complete. I don't trade much so it won't bother me. Exactly how long does it take for a moth to get from one side of the galaxy to the other?
To answer your question: About 25 minutes from, say, Sedina through Bractus to Divinia. I personally think the question should be "how long does a Moth take to get 120cu from one side of the galaxy to the other?" and the answer is "about 20-30% of the time alloted to it by the mission computer."
I don't know about the rest of you, but I haven't run into a bulk run yet that didn't allot me enough time to dock my moth, run to starbucks for a latte, undock, and leisurely go about claiming my time bonus. In other words, the timers are set as if you had to make multiple runs across space in a smaller trade ship.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I haven't run into a bulk run yet that didn't allot me enough time to dock my moth, run to starbucks for a latte, undock, and leisurely go about claiming my time bonus. In other words, the timers are set as if you had to make multiple runs across space in a smaller trade ship.
well maybe the runs should take the ships into consideration... (with some fixed maximum) if im flying a bus to do that job it will take me way longer... then if i'm doing it in a shiny new marauder.
i support the idea of removing (or tweeking) the moth weapon ports. In a previous post i sugested giving the 'moth 3S ports (to nuke it's mining uberness whithout completely removing it's defensive abilities).
Moth varients for evry ocasion are a bad idea. it would further reduce veriaty becauase as long as the ships look the same their stats are irelavent from a diversity perspective.
as for slowing the moth down, it's speed isn't the problem, it's armor is. reduce the armor if you want to nerf it. But remember just because the moth is hard to catch now doesn't mean it will be forever. the devs have new ships in the planning stages now after all.
Moth varients for evry ocasion are a bad idea. it would further reduce veriaty becauase as long as the ships look the same their stats are irelavent from a diversity perspective.
as for slowing the moth down, it's speed isn't the problem, it's armor is. reduce the armor if you want to nerf it. But remember just because the moth is hard to catch now doesn't mean it will be forever. the devs have new ships in the planning stages now after all.
as for slowing the moth down, it's speed isn't the problem, it's armor is. reduce the armor if you want to nerf it. But remember just because the moth is hard to catch now doesn't mean it will be forever. the devs have new ships in the planning stages now after all.
I disagree, The speed most assuredly IS the problem. It doesn't matter how much armor it has if it cant run away. Back in alpha if you wanted to turbo forever you were limited to a top speed of 160m/s, which meant you had to decide how you wanted to get to a destination; easy jumps at wormholes but lower top speed, or waits to recharge in flight but the ability to sprint.
I've never agreed with the devs decision to make ships able to infinite turbo at higher speeds. It just throws off the balance in my opinion.
As to the new ships, If thier speeds are higher than anything we allready have i will probably stop playing completely, in general the slow but constant increase in top speeds has made the game much less fun for me. because of the way the game engine handles acceleration a higher top speed means faster acceleration for longer, which in turn means you can travel a given distance from a dead stop faster than the increase of top speed would suggest.
What that boils down to is chasing is much harder, fleeing is much easier, and the danger has pretty much vanished IMO.
I'd go for having the moth's weapon ports removed, or changed to small ports, but i'd really much rather see equipment ports added for things like scanners, mining beams, and any future electronic gadgets we might get.
Ideally if the top turbo speed of the moth were cut back to.. say.. 150, i'd even be for INCREASING its armor(even doubling it). Make it a slow moving hard to kill target and it might be worth it for a couple of pirates to team up.
On the general note of piracy not being profitable, The easiest way to fix that is with an economy redo that adds some high end trade goods. Something that costs around 15K per cu and offers a 2k or 3k per cu profit on an average run. This would give traders a higher investment with a good return, and give pirates who managed a kill a nice windfall.
I disagree, The speed most assuredly IS the problem. It doesn't matter how much armor it has if it cant run away. Back in alpha if you wanted to turbo forever you were limited to a top speed of 160m/s, which meant you had to decide how you wanted to get to a destination; easy jumps at wormholes but lower top speed, or waits to recharge in flight but the ability to sprint.
I've never agreed with the devs decision to make ships able to infinite turbo at higher speeds. It just throws off the balance in my opinion.
As to the new ships, If thier speeds are higher than anything we allready have i will probably stop playing completely, in general the slow but constant increase in top speeds has made the game much less fun for me. because of the way the game engine handles acceleration a higher top speed means faster acceleration for longer, which in turn means you can travel a given distance from a dead stop faster than the increase of top speed would suggest.
What that boils down to is chasing is much harder, fleeing is much easier, and the danger has pretty much vanished IMO.
I'd go for having the moth's weapon ports removed, or changed to small ports, but i'd really much rather see equipment ports added for things like scanners, mining beams, and any future electronic gadgets we might get.
Ideally if the top turbo speed of the moth were cut back to.. say.. 150, i'd even be for INCREASING its armor(even doubling it). Make it a slow moving hard to kill target and it might be worth it for a couple of pirates to team up.
On the general note of piracy not being profitable, The easiest way to fix that is with an economy redo that adds some high end trade goods. Something that costs around 15K per cu and offers a 2k or 3k per cu profit on an average run. This would give traders a higher investment with a good return, and give pirates who managed a kill a nice windfall.
I watched some Corvus NPC pirates rip apart a couple moths in the convoy once on the test server a couple weeks ago so they can be stopped however those moths dont shoot back so perhaps a portless moth is the key! however....then we'll have to hear all the traders gripe on the forums about how combat isn't a choice and how every other rpg on the planet allows choice and that they should be able to trade in peace blah blah blah and that will be quite annoying so maybe not.
Trade in peace in the chaotic no-mans-land that is grey space? They can keep dreaming. I'm a trader, and I disagree with this. You should only venture into greyspace trading in a fast, well-armored and defensible ship, and if you can take some tugboat down there with the reasonable expectation to come back unscathed, then things are broken.
In short, I agree. :)
In short, I agree. :)
Spellcast,
i have argued the armor vs speed point several times, and even done some math on the matter, and i still say the armor is the more signifigant factor in the mot's escapability.
CrazySpence,
i may be wrong but i don't believe the NPC traders use continious turbo like players do. and as such they are not a viable test of whether or not a plyer run moth is catchable with it's current stats.
In general,
there isn't any metagame reason for the moth to have 2L weapon ports, and there isn't anything wrong with taking them away IMO.
i have argued the armor vs speed point several times, and even done some math on the matter, and i still say the armor is the more signifigant factor in the mot's escapability.
CrazySpence,
i may be wrong but i don't believe the NPC traders use continious turbo like players do. and as such they are not a viable test of whether or not a plyer run moth is catchable with it's current stats.
In general,
there isn't any metagame reason for the moth to have 2L weapon ports, and there isn't anything wrong with taking them away IMO.
wait...a moth is supposed to be a heavy trading ship, right? so more then half of the ship is filled with cargo, right? so why the hell does it take 45k damage before it drops the cargo..undamged!
first of all, make the changes above, leave the speed how it is, second, make it so when it gets shot, it loses crate of cargo, per 1k, and once it gets down to 'crictical' make it drop more at at time, and of course, instead of just fire and smoke, have luis make a nice picture of a torn-open cargo hold.
discuss :)
first of all, make the changes above, leave the speed how it is, second, make it so when it gets shot, it loses crate of cargo, per 1k, and once it gets down to 'crictical' make it drop more at at time, and of course, instead of just fire and smoke, have luis make a nice picture of a torn-open cargo hold.
discuss :)
Lord Q.
I think this is just a difference of opinion, but having played the game way back in alpha when infinite-turbo required you to sacrifice a lot of speed, thats what I associate with a good form of balance. Not just because it's what i'm used to, but because it worked.
If the moth had a top speed of 160m/s it would take just about twice as long to transit a sector, and would be much easier to overtake. With a good pilot in the moth however it should still be defensible through 1 sector vs 1 opponent(increase the armor some if needed to achieve this), but the moth pilot would have to be a bit more creative than point and turbo.
Basically I look at it this way; A change in the speed means the fight becomes tactically interesting, small dodges, minor course changes, and escorts are able to keep up with the moth if it does hire them. The fight takes a little while and allows for help to arrive (if its close) and mistakes to be made without a complete loss occuring (for either side).
A change in armor means a short, fast fight, since the speed is unchanged a moths most effective defensive tactic, (to flee) means that it can't bring along any decent escorts. If the moth pilot makes a mistake he's dead, but by the same token if the attacker makes a mistake and cant line up, the fight is over and the moth gets away. If the speed doesn't change odds are the fight never begins because its a chase, not a combat.
If you had played CtC back when more than a few people were active, one of the biggest gripes about the transports was that they just outran the escorts and attackers alike. It was nothing more than a chase, with occasional re-rolls of position at the wormholes and sector jumps. If you cut the armor on the moth thats exactly what killing it is going to become... nothing more than a race. While boxcar would probably enjoy that, it doesn't interest me very much.
I think this is just a difference of opinion, but having played the game way back in alpha when infinite-turbo required you to sacrifice a lot of speed, thats what I associate with a good form of balance. Not just because it's what i'm used to, but because it worked.
If the moth had a top speed of 160m/s it would take just about twice as long to transit a sector, and would be much easier to overtake. With a good pilot in the moth however it should still be defensible through 1 sector vs 1 opponent(increase the armor some if needed to achieve this), but the moth pilot would have to be a bit more creative than point and turbo.
Basically I look at it this way; A change in the speed means the fight becomes tactically interesting, small dodges, minor course changes, and escorts are able to keep up with the moth if it does hire them. The fight takes a little while and allows for help to arrive (if its close) and mistakes to be made without a complete loss occuring (for either side).
A change in armor means a short, fast fight, since the speed is unchanged a moths most effective defensive tactic, (to flee) means that it can't bring along any decent escorts. If the moth pilot makes a mistake he's dead, but by the same token if the attacker makes a mistake and cant line up, the fight is over and the moth gets away. If the speed doesn't change odds are the fight never begins because its a chase, not a combat.
If you had played CtC back when more than a few people were active, one of the biggest gripes about the transports was that they just outran the escorts and attackers alike. It was nothing more than a chase, with occasional re-rolls of position at the wormholes and sector jumps. If you cut the armor on the moth thats exactly what killing it is going to become... nothing more than a race. While boxcar would probably enjoy that, it doesn't interest me very much.
all it needs is a little armor nerf... and maybe a slight decrease in thrust (so its chances of escape are poor unless completely empty)
Seriously, that's all it needs to make it balanced and vulnerable. The amount of armor it has is just plain insane, and should be reduced significantly - what kind of bulk trade ship can afford the weight of all that armor anyway?
I'm all for giving it MORE ports instead of less, as long as it can't run from everything. (a moth with two L ports and one S would be VERY welcome in the universe for mining)
"As much as stripping the moth of its ports, a limitation to the types of weapons it can carry is an idea, only defensive, also bringing down topspeed and weapons makes the moth nothing more then a sitting duck."
The moth is already severely limited in effective offensive weapons - with only L-ports, the only things it could really use offensively are swarms and megaposi. The former is ineffective at a safe (for the moth) range or against light ships, and only really helps to make ships back off (defensive, really), and the latter can't be weilded effectively against a medium to light ship due to the moth's turn rate.
Any moth pilot dumb enough to try and stay to fight is not likely to leave alive - power running is it's only real virtue.
One pirate can take down a moth with sufficient persistance. Two can take it down without great difficulty if one flys a bomber and the other a chaser, and three should be able to take it down without any trouble at all.
Ideally, it should be much easier, but you shouldn't leave the moth pilot without options, and definately not without mines.
Seriously, that's all it needs to make it balanced and vulnerable. The amount of armor it has is just plain insane, and should be reduced significantly - what kind of bulk trade ship can afford the weight of all that armor anyway?
I'm all for giving it MORE ports instead of less, as long as it can't run from everything. (a moth with two L ports and one S would be VERY welcome in the universe for mining)
"As much as stripping the moth of its ports, a limitation to the types of weapons it can carry is an idea, only defensive, also bringing down topspeed and weapons makes the moth nothing more then a sitting duck."
The moth is already severely limited in effective offensive weapons - with only L-ports, the only things it could really use offensively are swarms and megaposi. The former is ineffective at a safe (for the moth) range or against light ships, and only really helps to make ships back off (defensive, really), and the latter can't be weilded effectively against a medium to light ship due to the moth's turn rate.
Any moth pilot dumb enough to try and stay to fight is not likely to leave alive - power running is it's only real virtue.
One pirate can take down a moth with sufficient persistance. Two can take it down without great difficulty if one flys a bomber and the other a chaser, and three should be able to take it down without any trouble at all.
Ideally, it should be much easier, but you shouldn't leave the moth pilot without options, and definately not without mines.