Forums » Suggestions
Oh Shape...
You weren't on the test server that night that the production server crashed this week...
There were about 10 Serco CtC convoys' worth in B-8, and they flew like a school of fish, chasing Nerde Verde around. Cool sight, too. I sat in their path as they chased him and they just moved around me like I was a rock.
I think the "school o' fish" mentality is present in "convoys" of bots rather than specific bot types.
You weren't on the test server that night that the production server crashed this week...
There were about 10 Serco CtC convoys' worth in B-8, and they flew like a school of fish, chasing Nerde Verde around. Cool sight, too. I sat in their path as they chased him and they just moved around me like I was a rock.
I think the "school o' fish" mentality is present in "convoys" of bots rather than specific bot types.
Spider wrote:
...my question, how -should- the bots behave?
Bots should have differing levels of AI, obviously. Oruns should stay the way they are, and even introduce some randomness into their movements, have them fire off-target, pursue at odd angles, etc.
Kanniks, Dentek, and Artemis collectors should get progressively better/less error introduction. Artemis collectors should work in a team, and I think they TRY to do that right now, but they work in a team that does not anticipate the human player's tactics.
Assault bots should make sweeping passes (a la the jousting maneuver). Guardian bots should act pretty much as they do now - get in your face and blast the crap outta ya. Overseers should try to sneak up on you, bracket you between themselves and other bots (or even asteroids). Queens should have even more complex behavior.
Strategies I'd like to see in bots:
************************************
To combat backrolling, one of a team of bots should turbo PAST the player and get in a flanking position to blast the player. If the player makes a course correction to engage the bot that passed him/her, then the roles switch and the main pursuit bot becomes the flanking bot. They *kind of* do this now, but their strategy is limited.
To further combat backrolling, bots should not endlessly pursue the player. If a backrolling pattern is evident, the bot should stop and return to the "main area" where they usually are. Or just stop at a perimeter.
Bots should sometimes hold off on firing until the player is WELL inside their firing range, luring the player deeper into the "kill zone."
Bots should switch autoaim off if they are not hitting anything, then spray-n-pray. If they STILL don't hit anything, then go back to autoaim-on.
The most annoying thing for me is when I'm fighting a multitude of bots and two or three of them get in close enough to "box" me in, so I can't maneuver. Then a Orne Guardian comes in and blasts me to hell 'cause I can't maneuver. Bots have no sense of self-worth, sacrificing some (3 or 4) bots to hem in a maneuverable threat while a large bot comes in for the kill shot would be good bot behavior.
Bots should use mines, seekers, rockets, etc.
If a bot comes upon a stationary player (like a miner), it will not behave normally. It will stay at max weapons range (300-500m) and pour on a stream of fire, instead of getting up close and personal.
Make bots be able to backroll as well. In fact, there should be a new class of bots that specialize in backrolling behavior. In a duel-type scenario, these bots would engage the player, and once the player went after them, they would backroll. If the player disengaged, the bot would pursue and demonstrate normal bot behavior. When the player tried to kill it again, it would backroll.
If a bastion / stronghold is getting its BUTT kicked (i.e. several players teaming up to eradicate hive in that sector), the entire bastion should warp away to a new sector for a breather.
Hive bots should pursue players going to repair/reload/escape, even into station or WH sectors.
Hive collectors that mine should continually move around the asteroid, to make a harder target. Oruns perhaps should sit still. Artemis collectors should skim the surface of the asteroid, avoiding it deftly and mining at the same time.
Queens should have front & rear guns, and should be able to lay "eggs" - mines.
I'm sure that many other behaviors could be implemented. The logic tree could start out simple and grow, JUST like the mission trees that are coming soon™.
...my question, how -should- the bots behave?
Bots should have differing levels of AI, obviously. Oruns should stay the way they are, and even introduce some randomness into their movements, have them fire off-target, pursue at odd angles, etc.
Kanniks, Dentek, and Artemis collectors should get progressively better/less error introduction. Artemis collectors should work in a team, and I think they TRY to do that right now, but they work in a team that does not anticipate the human player's tactics.
Assault bots should make sweeping passes (a la the jousting maneuver). Guardian bots should act pretty much as they do now - get in your face and blast the crap outta ya. Overseers should try to sneak up on you, bracket you between themselves and other bots (or even asteroids). Queens should have even more complex behavior.
Strategies I'd like to see in bots:
************************************
To combat backrolling, one of a team of bots should turbo PAST the player and get in a flanking position to blast the player. If the player makes a course correction to engage the bot that passed him/her, then the roles switch and the main pursuit bot becomes the flanking bot. They *kind of* do this now, but their strategy is limited.
To further combat backrolling, bots should not endlessly pursue the player. If a backrolling pattern is evident, the bot should stop and return to the "main area" where they usually are. Or just stop at a perimeter.
Bots should sometimes hold off on firing until the player is WELL inside their firing range, luring the player deeper into the "kill zone."
Bots should switch autoaim off if they are not hitting anything, then spray-n-pray. If they STILL don't hit anything, then go back to autoaim-on.
The most annoying thing for me is when I'm fighting a multitude of bots and two or three of them get in close enough to "box" me in, so I can't maneuver. Then a Orne Guardian comes in and blasts me to hell 'cause I can't maneuver. Bots have no sense of self-worth, sacrificing some (3 or 4) bots to hem in a maneuverable threat while a large bot comes in for the kill shot would be good bot behavior.
Bots should use mines, seekers, rockets, etc.
If a bot comes upon a stationary player (like a miner), it will not behave normally. It will stay at max weapons range (300-500m) and pour on a stream of fire, instead of getting up close and personal.
Make bots be able to backroll as well. In fact, there should be a new class of bots that specialize in backrolling behavior. In a duel-type scenario, these bots would engage the player, and once the player went after them, they would backroll. If the player disengaged, the bot would pursue and demonstrate normal bot behavior. When the player tried to kill it again, it would backroll.
If a bastion / stronghold is getting its BUTT kicked (i.e. several players teaming up to eradicate hive in that sector), the entire bastion should warp away to a new sector for a breather.
Hive bots should pursue players going to repair/reload/escape, even into station or WH sectors.
Hive collectors that mine should continually move around the asteroid, to make a harder target. Oruns perhaps should sit still. Artemis collectors should skim the surface of the asteroid, avoiding it deftly and mining at the same time.
Queens should have front & rear guns, and should be able to lay "eggs" - mines.
I'm sure that many other behaviors could be implemented. The logic tree could start out simple and grow, JUST like the mission trees that are coming soon™.
I have a complaint about the Hive Queen AI. This seems like a good place to put it since this is covering bot AI across the board, and not just the Oruns.
She's *too* aggressive. She bullies through her own escorts, damaging them in the process, so she can get in your face and blast away at you. She's literally more a threat to me by ramming me than she is by actually shooting me though. I *must* back off or she will slam into me!
In the old AI, she would back off if you shot at her, and her escorts would scatter with a bit of suppression fire. I miss this because it made bots in general harder to kill when they had some sense of self preservation, though easier to escape from (which isn't hard to do at all even now) and control.
However, for the Queen, niether behavoir seems to make sense to me. The Queen is a little mobile robot factory and resource repository, right? Shouldn't she act more like
a) Fleeing away from any hostiles, and trying to maintain a minimum distance greater than weapon range (2k maybe?).
b) Sniping every few seconds from long range to eliminate hostiles (Rails maybe?)
c) Suppression fire at all ranges to deter pursuit, becomining more intense as you get closer. (Gatling Turret)
d) Concentrated fire at closer range (like the purple energy weapon she currently uses)
e) Spawning more escort bots to replace those fallen (or reinforce those in action) at a regular, but not super-fast, rate.
f) Not necessarily facing you as she does any of the above, as she's a large ship and would have all-around turret coverage.
There is also a bot bahvior I find incrediably annoying an unrealisttic in general.
If I am in a field being pursued by a defensive bot A and I fire on a passing bot B, bot A will break off pursuit while I finish of bot B. This happens in teams too, so if I am pursed by A and B, fire on C, A will break off and B and C will continue pursuit. I think this behavior needs to be amended so that bot A will continue its pursuit and bot B/C will join in the fray too. This leads to the situation where you could fire on a couple of passing Prosus Assaults while being pursued by another 3, then have to face/run from 5 or more.
Otherwise, the bots should stay as they are, sending in only one to replace those fallen.
You could also make the teams act a bit more agrressive in this case, so that if A, B, and C are prusuing you, and you fire on passing D, D could pull in a team of E and F to assist him, and you would have to stare down the collective A, B, C, D, E, and F bots. Again, otherwise only send in D to replace fallen A, B, or C, unless D is prematurely provoked. But that's just a thought.
This would allow players to adjust thier challenge level a bit by tapping more bots for a bigger brawl, or teaching players to be a bit more discreet with thier targets.
As far as new players go, incarnate already tapped the solution in that special training bots are needed before you face the Hive. Perhaps start with "atmospheric" flight models, and work in some "Zero G" stuff until you have completely "winged" the player of the bad FA habit.
She's *too* aggressive. She bullies through her own escorts, damaging them in the process, so she can get in your face and blast away at you. She's literally more a threat to me by ramming me than she is by actually shooting me though. I *must* back off or she will slam into me!
In the old AI, she would back off if you shot at her, and her escorts would scatter with a bit of suppression fire. I miss this because it made bots in general harder to kill when they had some sense of self preservation, though easier to escape from (which isn't hard to do at all even now) and control.
However, for the Queen, niether behavoir seems to make sense to me. The Queen is a little mobile robot factory and resource repository, right? Shouldn't she act more like
a) Fleeing away from any hostiles, and trying to maintain a minimum distance greater than weapon range (2k maybe?).
b) Sniping every few seconds from long range to eliminate hostiles (Rails maybe?)
c) Suppression fire at all ranges to deter pursuit, becomining more intense as you get closer. (Gatling Turret)
d) Concentrated fire at closer range (like the purple energy weapon she currently uses)
e) Spawning more escort bots to replace those fallen (or reinforce those in action) at a regular, but not super-fast, rate.
f) Not necessarily facing you as she does any of the above, as she's a large ship and would have all-around turret coverage.
There is also a bot bahvior I find incrediably annoying an unrealisttic in general.
If I am in a field being pursued by a defensive bot A and I fire on a passing bot B, bot A will break off pursuit while I finish of bot B. This happens in teams too, so if I am pursed by A and B, fire on C, A will break off and B and C will continue pursuit. I think this behavior needs to be amended so that bot A will continue its pursuit and bot B/C will join in the fray too. This leads to the situation where you could fire on a couple of passing Prosus Assaults while being pursued by another 3, then have to face/run from 5 or more.
Otherwise, the bots should stay as they are, sending in only one to replace those fallen.
You could also make the teams act a bit more agrressive in this case, so that if A, B, and C are prusuing you, and you fire on passing D, D could pull in a team of E and F to assist him, and you would have to stare down the collective A, B, C, D, E, and F bots. Again, otherwise only send in D to replace fallen A, B, or C, unless D is prematurely provoked. But that's just a thought.
This would allow players to adjust thier challenge level a bit by tapping more bots for a bigger brawl, or teaching players to be a bit more discreet with thier targets.
As far as new players go, incarnate already tapped the solution in that special training bots are needed before you face the Hive. Perhaps start with "atmospheric" flight models, and work in some "Zero G" stuff until you have completely "winged" the player of the bad FA habit.
"Bots ought to act more like players... but how the hell do you get them to act as unpredictably as a player?"
have different tactical behaviors stored which the bots can select from during combat at random, and have the selection weighted by tactical viability (ie, more likely to choose to stay in close and circle if you're flying a heavy, and more likely to use defensive behavios when outgunned)
while writign bot behaviors is no simple task, getting them to select from them with a 'random' element during combat wouldn;t be too difficult... the real issue however is the server power - something needs to drive all those bots... this could be alleviated by having client computers assist in bot AI processing, however that would leave an important aspect of the game open to hacking, and may cause complications when players don't have reasonablly fast CPUs, connections or pings.
have different tactical behaviors stored which the bots can select from during combat at random, and have the selection weighted by tactical viability (ie, more likely to choose to stay in close and circle if you're flying a heavy, and more likely to use defensive behavios when outgunned)
while writign bot behaviors is no simple task, getting them to select from them with a 'random' element during combat wouldn;t be too difficult... the real issue however is the server power - something needs to drive all those bots... this could be alleviated by having client computers assist in bot AI processing, however that would leave an important aspect of the game open to hacking, and may cause complications when players don't have reasonablly fast CPUs, connections or pings.