Today an entire Gold fleet of about six players assembled for a flag capture. We got it out of sectors 2 and 12, but a player by the name of Peregrine the Red thought it would be fun to boost a Prometheus into the capper and shoot off an avalon at POINT BLANK range. Every Gold pilot blew up. There's absolutely no way in hell you can dodge an avalon so close. THIS NEEDS TO BE FIXED. Either take the weapon out or give it a long timer warn players.

To add to this problem, the Prometheus has such a powerful hull that it can easily boost into any player and let off an avalon and survive all the damage. This is completely unacceptable, considering how one can easily exploit easy kills this way. They're hard enough as it is, I don't need a moron boosting into me repeatedly firing avalons at point blank range. It's completely ridiculous. Station exploiting with avalons have also become a common occurance. People dock, come out while invincible, and kill anyone near the docks. How is this fun? And more importantly, how is this balanced?

At this point, where people are exploiting the avalons more and more, I'd be more than happy to see the avalons GO COMPLETELY. At least until frigate ships are in the game, where they'd actually have an appropriate use. Because right now they're not needed. There are capital ships or frigates around. Why are the avalons? The fun was good while it lasted, but now it's just annoying. For the sake of balancing gameplay and reducing exploits, avalons should be taken out completely.

All i have to say is this, peregrine used a strategy, he realised the fleet would be killed by an avalon and his ship could withstand it, so he did so.
Maybe you people should learn to use fleets that can with stand being attacked! and maybe you shouldn't be within 250m of the flag carryer.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the fire.

Let me look at this:

First, the blues get a slightly overpowered ship. You complain, and it gets reduced in power. Then the reds ship, which is perfectly balanced, uses a new tactic. It's perfectly balanced, since the slow speed of the avalon, the lack of auto-targeting and the fact that a maurader can survive a point-blank hit all combine to make it suitable. Now you want the new tactic to go and the avalons (a very fine weapon) to be nerffed like the rail gun was. My prediction? You'll want the red ship nerffed soon too.

Why do I think the avalon is balanced? Well, it is incredibly slow, therefore it is kinda hard for even the best pilots to shoot. Its detonation radius is MUCH smaller than its damage radius, so it is hard to set off too. The price is so much as to discourage wasteful fire, at 32k per launcher and 2k per torpedo. There are lots of powerful ships in the game, and heavy torpedoes are necessary RIGHT NOW. For frigates, even more powerful weapons will be needed. After all, a defense turret takes 4 avalons or 51 graviton blaster shots to kill.

So devs, please don't let this nonsense of Arolte's take you under it's sway. The avalon is the perfect weapon as it is, perfectly balanced. Its flaws are few and far apart, and they don't affect the target much at all.

One more point. You suggested a "timer to warn players"? Well, if you see a heavily armed bomber flying straight at your cluster of players, what more of a timer do you need? It's not like he was invisible... You just weren't paying enough attention.

Even though I am Gold player, I gotta go w/ Rogue on this one. If anything, the avalon is a bit underbalanced, requiring almost suicidal tactics to be employed in its use. This kind of attack is one of the few advanages the red ship has. And it is easy enough to avoid. Though if people are going to continue using avalons as 'uber-mines' perhaps players should be able to target them and shoot them out of the sky.

Frankly, I'd like to be able to shoot down missiles in general. That would give the gatling a whole different use.

Yeah, the ability to shoot down missiles would be great. It would also get rid of the ubermine thingy.

Arolte's dream world after he complains:
All ships except golds:
HP: 1
Speed: 20
Gun slots: 0
Manuverability: Pregnent Space Cow

All weapons:
Speed: instant
Recoil: 0 (you know guns need recoil adventually)
Energy use: 0
Ammo: Not Needed
Dmg: (insert absurdly large numbere here like:) 34567654
Splash radius: 456798

Gold ships:
HP: (invulnerable)
Speed: 1000
Gun slots: 50
Manuverability: Cheetah on steriods


Ok maybe i am exagerating, but when everyone is complaining about the gold ships he will say "What? There perfectly balanced!"

If you can't stand the heat get out of the fire.
I'm sticking to that phrase, arolte if you can't stand someone using a tactic, then run.

Arolte: I've got another thread on this where I discuss possible solutions to the Avalon problem.

I might want to remind you though that it was a Gold player that first used this tactic on me and that you personally at the time thought it was funny that I thought this was bad for gameplay. Now that it is used on you you are suddenly indignant and demanding the weapon go 'now'. I'd like to say it was funny, but frankly I'm getting tired of not being listened to and the very things I predict will happen with the gameplay happen.

I haven't wanted to bring this up, but the Avalon is almost identical in every respect including speed (35 m/s) and damage (12000) to the Torpedo I described 6 months ago. There are really only two diferences. One is you can carry 4 in a large slot rather than just two. The other is that the Torp I described was _contact_ detonated not _proximity_ detonated to avoid these very exploits. So, its not like I didn't see this coming. There may be some ways we can preserve the Avalons proximity fuse and keep it balanced (see the other thread), but as a next to next resort we can always remove the proximity fuse.

CORRECTION: I was wrong. I checked my old post, and I originally assigned the Torp 32m/s. At the time, cruising speed was 30m/s without boost, thus the choice of speed. After the increase in cruising speed when I latter mentioned Torps I had boosted the speed to 45m/s. But all of them were contact or 'impact' detonated.

You're right, Celebrim. Sorry. The avalon torpedoes are in fact problematic.

Okay guys, before I start my response I'd like to ask you whether you can even justify why the avalons are in the game to begin with. Why is it necessary? Are there any huge capital ships or frigates flying around with 100000+ hull points? Let's be reasonable. It's OBVIOUSLY an overkill weapon that needs to be taken out. Simply because the need for it hasn't been presented within the current Vendetta universe.

It's sad to say this, but I'm getting the impression that a lot of you are simply WOW'ed by the pretty graphics and damage than anything else. There is absolutely no concern for the balance issues of this weapon because of that. You'd rather be stupified with gigantic explosions than have traditional dogfights and longer lasting battles. Well I'm sorry, it ruins the gameplay and above all it encourages reckless behavior. I can name at least THREE exploits that one can use with avalons. One of which is discussed in this thread. The other two involve the invincible station nuke exploit and the negative hull bug.

Anyway, back to the topic... If a heavy ship with A LOT of hull (aka Prometheus) boosts into you and launches an avalon at point blank range (WITHIN DETONATION PROXIMITY at the initial time of launch), it's simply impossible to dodge or avoid in any way. So basically Serco pilots now have nuclear kamikaze ships that can withstand their own splash damage and kill everyone else around them. How is this fair? It boggles me why so many people endorse this type of behavior. Not only does it look silly, but it is completely unbalanced. Prometheuses have the ability to defend themselves without avalon torpedoes. I've seen a couple take down three fighters and boost away safely. If you can't defend yourself with avalons, then that's something you need to work on. I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced that such a controversial weapon is absolutely positively needed right now.

And let me remind you, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with giving Gold Nation an advantage. EVERY NATION can own avalon torpedoes. What advantage will Gold Nation get if the avalon torpedoes are taken out? WTF?!! I'm trying my best as a betatester to report balance issues. I'm sorry if you disagree with me, but I don't see suicidal nuclear bombers as a viable tactic. How many games have you played where you were allowed to boost up to your opponent, launch a nuclear warhead, kill everyone around you, and boost away with minimal damage? How many times have you seen this in sci-fi movies/literature? It's ridiculous!

Anyway, the next time someone rams you with a Prometheus and stuffs an avalon torpedo down your throat, you'll know EXACTLY what I mean. Unless you've been nuked in such a manner, you'll never know how hard (if even possible) it is to avoid such a threat.

It's not fair to the people who died, who spent a good amount of time to organize a fleet (for CTF) and fight off any attackers (who use non-nuclear weapons like everyone else) FAIRLY, when all of a sudden a nuclear suicide bomber bumps into them and wipes out the ENTIRE fleet. My teammates worked very hard to get that flag. We were using the same exact ships and weapons that were available to EVERY nation. We defended ourselves against wave after wave of enemies. And it all gets ruined by a single, unavoidable nuke.

Is this the type of gameplay you want for the future of Vendetta? If that's what we have in store for the future, then I probably won't stick around for long. I was hoping that we would see lengthy intense battles. Not ones that end within seconds due to a psycho nuclear suicidal bomber. Boooooring!

Well, I think they are at the top of the list of weapons to alter, and the sooner the better.

(Number two on the list is bring the rail back down to a more usable level after this week was wasted due to that nerf. :p)

But lets give them a chance to try some ideas out on it before we yank it.

During a cap yesturday on Gold, we got nuked at least 2 times by Gold players, and i think its pretty easy to avoid actually... (and are we complaining about it. NO.)... Any smaller ship can easily avoid the detonation area, and the larger ships can just about withstand the damage.... Our flag capper was doing well dodging the nukes going at normal speeds.... Arolte, i think your "fleet" needs to rethink its strategy, or get some skill....

Personally, I think FF should be turned off on the avalons. It's a large enough weapon, (arguably) unlike mines, and I think it's such an uber-weapon that turning off the ff is warranted. It's at least worth a try for an update or so to see how turning off FF changes/balances the situation.

At any rate, I came on last night in the middle of a red cap spree. They capped that flag, but didn't cap again, even though they spent the better of an hour trying to, or at least flying arond the sector and killing golds. I do thank Schwavor (sp?) in particular for giving his life repeatedly in defense of the Neutral flag. :)

However, I finally figured out the best slug killers. I have two different versions, and with each I single-handedly killed a slug, even with my lack of skill, without losing my own ship once. I actually took out 3 slugs, but pere is calling lag on one. The other slugs, several of which I damaged, eventually ran away ("to repair" they said, but they didn't come back.). It's in large part a strategy rather than brute force weapons ship, and the setup I use is specific for cap defense, but it could be modified for other situations. It largely negates the 1-on-1 serco-fired avalon.

The best part is, the setup costs far, FAR less than a slug (not even counting the cost of the avalon), so even if you die, you're not spending as much as they are. It doesn't make killing slugs easy, just possible and affordable.

Golds, talk to me and I'll fill you in.

Though I haven't seen Avalons in action all that much, I agree with Arolte. Way too powerful, and it can make flag captures insane. Of course, when I actually see Avalons in action used against cappers, maybe I'll change my mind, but at this point and from what I've heard and seen, i think it's insane.

The Prometheus isn't as bad as the Valkryie was (and still is to an extent), though it does seem annoying that you can just suicide yourself into a fleet of ships and survive like that...

easy solution to the suicide attack.

keep the fleet ships at least 350 m apart

then attack only takes out 1 maybe 2 ships.

I've also found that a rangarok equipped with fast charge batt and efficient engine, outfitted with 3 linked gemini's and a pair of swarm launchers makes one HORRENDOUS flag defense ship, it can turbo forever, and anything that comes within 1000m gets 22 missiles flying at it in one volley. most of the time it wont hit... but boy do they look funny as they dodge.

First of all, the negative hull bug CANNOT be used to exploit, only as a survelliance camera.

Second, sometimes Torps are the LAST defense of a player. Ok say like you were protecting your flag and a swarm of valks come upon you, and your the only person protecting it.
What are you gonna do?
Throw a couple of ions at them?
WRONG!
The only choice you would have is to nuke them and possibly nuke yourself to get rid of them.

Third centaurs can survive nukes, as well as carry more than the promy, why dont you use those when capping? Fly in, nuke the defenders, use an Adv Gatling Turret to mop up survivors, and Viola one flag, Hot and Fresh and ready to go!

And possibly very soon we'll have AI frigs, what are you gonna do to them without the torps?
As I'm guessing the AI frigs are going to be Uber-Strong to any fighter without a good supply of torps handy. And if the pirates can get more cargo out of AI frigs than we can get out of you, we'd be much less likely to pirate you.

Just my 1.5c

Icarus, my main concern here is people who pull nuclear kamikaze attacks. And yes, when you're capturing a flag and some guy with a huge hull boosts into you and fires nukes at point blank range, it's kind of impossible to avoid. I'm not talking about someone firing within a certain distance. I literally mean detonation proximity or point blank range at initial time of launch. Normally I can dodge them easy. But when someone sets them off in my face it becomes a problem. Once again, let me repeat this for you. If someone with a Prometheus boosts RIGHT INTO YOU and lets off an avalon within the proximity for the detonator, they'll walk away from the explosion while you and everyone around you will be dead. And a third time. IF someone fires an avalon at you at point blank range and you're within the proximity range at the time of fire, YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DODGE OR BOOST AWAY TO AVOID IT. Got it now? Want me to say it in a different way for the fourth time? Sorry, but I gotta get this through your head. A lot of people seem to have trouble understanding it.

The bottom line is, it's not fun for the people who spent a lot of time into thinking up a strategy and fighting off wave after wave of enemies during a flag capture, when everything gets destroyed by a single avalon that was fired by a suicidal person. Battles involving fleets in this game should last minutes or even hours, but not seconds. Having one-shot-one-kill weapons with an insane blast radus completely ruins it. And as I said before, it's just silly to use nukes against fighters and bombers. It's overkill. There is no need for them now. There is no way to justify the need for such a huge weapon when every ship is currently destroyable with the current choice of weapons. If people can't kills without nukes, they need to equip their ship with better configurations or learn how to aim.

When I fight, I use the same exact ships and weapons that everyone else can purchase. I can actually get kills (even against special ships) with the universal line of weapons and ships. Rarely do I even touch the avalons. The only time I know I can't avoid death is against these suicidal nuclear freaks. Other people can't avoid 'em either. I've seen it, and I've heard other people expressing concern over it. To me, this is a flaw in the balance of gameplay.

At some point I do think that avalons may be needed. I too like the awesome power and special FX it provides. But when they're abused it really ruins the gameplay and completely discourages the use of strategy. The thing with avalons is, they're supposed to be used against the BIG ships. Not fighters and bombers. But rather ships with hull points within the 100,000 to 1,000,000 range. What I think would be a good idea would be to eliminate the detonation proximity of the avalons altogether, and make the torpedo actually HIT the ship to set off the explosion. Isn't that how torpedoes work? That way people will avoid using them against smaller ships, while at the same time they would be better against the BIGGER and SLOOOOOWER ships. I think only then will people use the weapon as it was intended to be used.

One thing you have to consider is that as of yet the more experienced players are not using kamikazi tactics and no one has alot of practice with them. The problem is only going to get worse the longer it goes unfixed. Icarus, you claim that the Avalons are easy to dodge. If the tactic is done right, you don't get a chance to dodge at all. As our chief exploiter, if you choose to close with a player with no intent except to get close to them, do you think they could avoid it? Do you think you can prevent another player whose only intent is to close to less than 70m with you from doing so? Next time you get in a dogfight, even with a bot, watch the ranges. They don't have to be able to hit your nimble self, just close to 70m. The way this tactic works best is if you use your own ship as the guidance system, get within the proximity radius of the Avalon and then fire with the intent of having the Avalon go off almost instantly. At that point the 'target' can't do anything. I personally think a skilled player is gauranteed a 'hit' (that is any skilled player can get within 70m of another player provided the other player intends to do something other than run), and even an unskilled player who knows what the tactic is is going to be hard to avoid by even the most skilled player.

And keep in mind that many weapons are hard to use at ranges beyond 70m for all but the most skilled players anyway. So basically you are turning the game into a one weapon show and all battles will ultimately be decided by attrition and avalons.

Kamikazi is not something you can allow into the game, because the principle disadvantage of Kamikazi (that you can only try it once) is not something you want to have in most games. Kamikazi in every form will destroy gameplay.

HTP: "Second, sometimes Torps are the LAST defense of a player."

There are ways to defend against larger numbers of players. A skilled player ought to win against odds without resorting to cheap tactics. I've seen it done several times. I've even done it once or twice myself with a little luck (and a little preparation).

You are essentially arguing that your gameplay experience is more important than the players capping the flag.

"The only choice you would have is to nuke them and possibly nuke yourself to get rid of them."

You almost never have a single choice. There are other alternatives.

"And possibly very soon we'll have AI frigs, what are you gonna do to them without the torps?"

Well, homing missile for one thing. But I'm not suggesting that we have reached an either or situation where we either have to keep the torps like they are or else get rid of them. There are ways to modify the Torps so that they are less useful for Kamikazi but still useful in various roles.

Point taken, mabye we could have so the torps dont arm unless the person firing is x amount of distance from the nearest enemy.
(say 100m or so) that would possibly limit kamikaze runs to a neglible amount :D Arolte use centaurs with Adv gatling, they can survive a nuke, and mop up the ship that did it :P

I still say what you're complaining about is not the fault of the weapon, but of you yourselves. Here's the tactic you're complaining about:

A large enemy ship comes boosting straight at you. It closes to 70m and fires a torpedo. You don't notice ANYTHING until the torpedo hits you some two seconds later. You are destroyed.

Now, what could be wrong with that picture on YOUR side? Let's see, considering the fact that there'd probably be several KILOMETERS for the enemy ship to close before he fired, that means that you are INOBSERVANT! Or did you forget that shots don't go through roids? Or did you forget that you have defenders? Or did you forget that you can dodge!?!?!?!? At that speed, changning direction is difficult. All it requires is a well-calculated direction change on your part and the torpedo will miss.

But of course, when a powerful, expensive weapon comes along, do you change your tactics to apply? No. You complain that it's too good, that it needs to be taken away. Because, of course, it's just too darned hard for YOU to stop. Awww, shucks. What a bloody shame.

Celebrim, i say the Avalons are easy to avoid because i mostly use a medium fighter, so can easily get the hell away from anyone i predict is carrying a nuke.. (i am actually quite observant of the players around me, and what they are doing)... I also tend to try and keep targets at about 200m away when dogfighting...

If you are flag capping, then your escort should consist of heavy and light ships.. the lights can intercept anyone incoming way before they get close to the flag carriers.... You should also have some heavies so you can withstand the odd nuke.... I'm with Roguelazer on this... Its just your crappy tactics...

Although reducing the damage of the Avalons a bit wouldn't hurt, and maybe only carrying 2...