I agree with Shape & Spell

I rocket-spammed into several fights today and the blasts should have OBLITERATED half of the team-mates as well as the opponent they were aimed at.

Of course, my Itani bretheren were untouched. Shaken by multiple and varied Jackhammer/Sunflare explosions, but unhurt.

FF needs to go away. Next update?

Haha, seeing as I was the opponent in those fights, I agree entirely.

It was frustrating to get buffeted around, be down to 15%, and realize that the 3 other people I was fighting were totally untouched.

it'd be nice to be able to use enemies as "sheilds" to deterr rocket usage. =)

I agree completely with Shape, Spell, Leber and the rest of the supporters of free PvP. FF the way of old yellow, and rockets/missiles/mines should most definitively damage teammates. Of course their detonation shouldn't be triggered by other ships designated as friends, but the actual explosions should definitively damage anyone close enough to be damaged.

I hope this is included in inc's vision of a FF-free VO.

I'm not here to convince anybody else, just here to point out my opinion and my opinion is solely based on me liking it because its easy, doesn't really hinder my immersion and in fact doesn't make wars in an outstretched energyduel.

Not to mention that I love shadowdueling with teammates so to see if I can tap them with my rockets/energyweapons without them having to go out and repair. Not to mention that it helps a lot in any newbietutoring.

But hey, who cares about that anyway... all for making it into a core pvp game wherein we will make it even harder for newbies to feel some accomplishment...

as if it isn't already annoying enough that you have to be with 2 - 3 people to take on vets like shape we are planning in making it into a 1 on 5- 6 before we will be able to take out shape... (ps shape your name is just used as reference, you can kinda put in any decent combattant like niki, martin, etc... so don't blush :D)

/me goes back and plays the carebear game

""all for making it into a core pvp game wherein we will make it even harder for newbies to feel some accomplishment...""

this has absolutely NOTHING to do with newbies renegade. It barely even effects them because.. umm newbies dont PvP very much. And while it may not affect your immersion, it sure as hell affects mine. I personally want to have to be careful when i'm using rockets, I find it lame as hell when an ally can spam lots of rounds into a fight with no regard to the consequences. If i make a mistake and hit an ally, I want that ally to take damage because it 'feels' less gamish.

Ion,
why wouldn't your alies trigger the proxcimity on mines and rockets?
i think they should, means you realy have to be carefull with something as deadly as balistic missiles.

newbies in the broad sense of the word, more particularly newbies at pvp that lack the skill and cunning of some of our more well versed members.

And you know prolly just as well that these newbies are more inclined to use rockets in a spamming way then anybody else. And maybe in stead of making both take damage you could maybe change it so that it won't trigger with an ally in proximity of the explosion unless its a death on hit which would then only damage the person you hit.

But like I said, im not here to tell the devs what needs to be done, just to show that there is still another side (although obviously outnumbered) that prefers to keep ff and im sure I'l like the stuff the devs change and if I don't i'll prolly learn to love it or...

Lord Q - a few reasons for allies not triggering mines/rockets...
1. Allies could STILL be hit by these things if they actually physically collide with them or were close enough to the blast radius.
2. It adds more depth and realism (in my opinion).
3. It adds an actual advantage to players working together, thus encouraging more teamwork.

But I'm all for turning ff on all the way.
(ff on = allies can damage eachother)
(ff off = allies can't damage eachother)

Okay, for all those of you (Like Rene) who like to spar with your opponents without damaging them:

Make some special no-damage weapons for the purpose (of varying speeds and RoFs)

FF should not get in the way of intentional, harm-intended combat. period. ESPECIALLY if high-explosive ordinance is involved. In the army, if you throw a grenade at your buddy who's standing surrounded by enemies, your buddy dies. period.

Now, as for making ordinance unable to DETONATE within the proximity of friendlies, this feature would be nice, but before that happens, an IFF system which would not hinder you from using rockets on those green dots chasing you with guns blazing is needed.

One solution would be to have any ship you are targeting automatically marked as hostile when you release the ordinance. You should also be able to 'tag' targets as hostile/friendly/indifferent with a keystroke when you have them targeted, so you can build a shoot list of hostile targets prior to engaging.

However, until the IFF system has been fixed, please take off friendly fire, but do NOT limit who will detonate the ordinance based on their standing or nation.

My understanding of how it works if you kill someone from a different faction is that your faction goes down with the guy's you are killing.

Please ensure that when folks start killing members of their own faction (friendly fire is turned off), they lose faction with their own faction as well. Make the loss larger based on the level differences between the pilot killed and the pilot doing the killing.

For the rocket spam example, you would lose a ton of faction if you fired into a group of your buddies all attacking the same target and you blew all of your buddies up.

I would also like to propose, being that I am UIT and focused pretty much on trading, that once a trader gets their faction above say 600 or 800 with someone, such as Axia, if they are killed while on a mission for Axia, the killer loses faction with Axia. The two requirements for faction loss would be faction above a certain amount and also being on an active mission for them. If you wanted to add more requirements to ensure pvp'ers didn't just run out and grab missions, add a cargo size requirement (40 cu or more). You could even tag on a bigger penalty if it was a Special Delivery.

dagged, that's only true in monitored space, which is not where the bulk of fighting occurs.

fights rarely take place in nation space, unless they are

A) Duels
or
B) Pirate Hunts

Perhaps that needs to end then. The pilots that are being shot down will be taking the proof of the loss of the ship to their faction so it should affect the faction of the pilot that shot them down, even in grey space.

I just think that if you are removing the safety from friendly fire based on appeals to realism and tactics, then you have to take the good with the bad. If you consistently shoot down your own factions pilots, your faction WILL disown you. Even if you do it in "grey" space.

People that are close to each other in skill (such as party members) that accidentally shoot each other down wouldn't really lose much, but killing newbs would penalizing you pretty heavily.

This leads to discussion about how to stop noobs from reverse griefing by attacking with their buses.

This ties into changing the HUD. Ships of your faction are green, ships of the neutrals are yellow, ships of the enemy are red. Any ship that targets you and fires on you, turns red. Any ship that hits you with an attack, even if they didn't target you, turns red.

After a few minutes or so, reds will return to whatever color they are normally. While they are red, you suffer no faction hits from killing them.

Are there more ways a noob can grief you? Sure, but the repurcussions of changing any system to a free for all system is that you have to have a counterbalancing force that prevents camping lower skill level players for points.

In other words, if you want to be a pirate, you should suffer the consequences as such to the point where the only ones that will want to trade with you are other pirates.

Otherwise, why argue for realism if you aren't going to take the bad with the good?

It should have no effect unless you are in "monitored space" if there is to be a faction loss.

Things that happen out of "monitored" space cannot be proven, even with the wrecked hulk of a ship.

"Oh look! I found a wrecked ship in this pile of roids! I will take it and use it to lower so-and-sos faction rating!"

Un-monitored space is non-verifiable. There are other planned protection measures for newbies. Such as not allowing them to leave their home system until they are a certain level, and then telling them that they had better watch out, because anyone can kill them.

It's not just realism... it's also because of the annoyance factor of not being able to kill people of your own nation who cause a ruckus if both of you still have good faction. Case in point: Anyone remember Mad Dog? Yeah... that was one of those situations.

well i totally agree for disabbling FF

NOTE: my first reflex when i enter this game was to shoot a station gard :)...
well may be newbies should be warned not to shoot them twice or three times before they kill them :)

Actually, it is very simple to prove who shot you down.

My understanding is that the pilot survives the destruction of his/her ship by using an escape mechanism. If the pilot returns with a recording (black box or whatnot) of the battle, they will easily be able to prove who shot them down.

Perhaps my understanding is wrong and you are just waking up a clone created whenever you land that gets shipped back to your home station?

Regardless, what I see most of you advocating is pvp without consequences for the victor. The victim loses money, a ship, possibly the mission they are on, which then penalizes them with a faction hit. The victor gains a pk and possibly cargo.

That sort of system leads to all wolves and no sheep. That kind of game is not appealing to people that want to experience the content of the game beyond just chasing around other guys in grey space and kill or be killed.

Again, if we are appealing to realism, why not be realistic? If you consistently kill the cargo traders for Axia, don't you think Axia is gonna get kinda pissed? Don't you think they are going to eventually find out you are doing it and then refuse to trade with you?

The problem is, if you create consequences for both the victor and the loser, nobody is gonna fight anymore.

The victor doesn't really get anything right now, why should he be penalized.

the victor does get something: namely a PK and posably cargo (depending on the situation)

realisticly faction standing should be affected on some level whether or not you are in monitered space when you attack them. (perhaps every time you kill somone you lose 2 faction points with any faction with whom they are admired, and 3 for every faction for which they are POS) that way it's basicly no penalty but if you go on a mass killing spree you will have to eventualy mend some fences, and the more universaly liked your targets are the more troublesome these become.

The victor has his cake and eats it too.

Comparison in pvp:

Pirate: Gains: pks, cargo, if any, which becomes money. Losses: money to replace their ship if it is destroyed.

Trader: Gains: pks, money and faction (from mission completion). Losses: money to replace the ship, bonuses (extra money) if they die on a timed mission, if the mission is failed, a faction hit, loss of non-mission cargo, which is another loss of money.

If time equals money, then the pirate has a smaller time and risk investment for a larger reward than the trader. That's backwards! Piracy should be MORE risky than trading!

Traders have more to risk if they spend time in pvp, hence they run or pay to flee.

Pirates risk only their ships. If that is destroyed, they appear back at their home station, which very well might be in territory controlled by the faction of the person they attacked. Most likely, they will buy a special faction only ship and outfit it with improved faction items, then fly back out and attack the members of the faction they just benefitted from.

What incentive does a trader have, then, to continue trying to be a trader? Why should the sheep continue to be eaten by wolves, if the wolves can never be deterred, but by a larger show of force?

Another recent example, the trade blockade setup by Itani factioned players. Realistically, if you attempted to establish that blockade where you did (between Serco and UIT space), you would no longer have access to UIT repairs or ammo resupplies.

But, since the players can't cut you off (we don't control the government), a good way to solve the problem would be that for every UIT trader you destroyed, your faction dropped with UIT. Then, as I said, realistically, UIT would respond to the blockade by not trading with you or helping you anymore and may even send peacekeepers after you when you attempted to return to and resupply in Itani space by flying through UIT space.

I don't see it as a problem when both have consequences. I see it as choosing your fights. Itani and Serco are involved in low level conflicts on a pretty regular basis, so they shouldn't give a crap if their faction goes down with the opposite faction. Duels should not cost you faction hits, so you should still be able to practice against equal faction players (just like real life wargames!). You will take a few hits if you indiscriminately destroy your fellow faction members or neutrals, though.

It should also be dependent on what the faction of the person you are attacking is as well with the faction you are taking a hit with. If you kill someone who is neutral with their own faction, it is a small hit for you (even if they aren't well known, they ARE a countryman). If you kill someone hated by their own faction, you may not take a hit at all.

The idea is that you can be a soldier for your faction and not ever really lose faction with anyone that matters. You can be a pirate/outlaw and lose faction with everyone and then can only buy from the pirates, which is as it should be. You can be a trader, only fight/kill those that attack you, worry only about getting your faction up with your customers, and be sitting pretty in the money, if you balance it well.

Players want to talk about skill. I think it would take a great amount of skill to restrain yourself from killing that trash talking UIT so you didn't lose faction with Axia, for example, because you wanted to be able to continue buying that Axia special. But, that doesn't mean you don't let the local pirate clan know that you will turn a blind eye when that trash talker flies through grey and start calling everyone for help. ;-)

Carebear.