Couldn't find this one suggested before... but it could be out there... (Get on with it!)

Ok... I was thinking... there definitely needs to be more danger 'n stuff in greyspace. Solution - set the hive up with a nation system. You kill lots of hive bots - they don't like you very much - they send their own 'strike force' after you when you enter Sedina or otherwise Hive controlled space (which probably wouldn't be vultures...). So it would pretty much be just like entering other nation KOS space.

Usually, I would develop this idea out a little bit more and give you a completed though, but I thought that I'd let people critique/discuss it a bit more on their own.

Would hive faction be irreversible (my vote is yes - or at least VERY hard to lose KOS standing)?
Would the hive just send one strike force then stop (if you destroyed the first group)?
Would it be possible to gain positive hive faction (my vote is no)?
What kind of cheesecake do you like?
What kinds of bots would be sent out in this hive strike force?
Should regular 'patrolling' hive bots (the ones we have now) be more agressive towards you if your reputation is lower with them?
Should hive strikeforces be sent out just in Sedina?

hmm interesting idea:

i'll start by adressing your discussion points
>Would hive faction be irreversible (my vote is yes - or at least VERY hard to lose
>KOS standing)?

i vote no. there should be some way to gain standing, perhaps making periodic cargo dumps in a sector with at least 1 queen would gain a small increase (as botting obviously would be counter productive)

>Would the hive just send one strike force then stop (if you destroyed the first group)?

i say it should depend make one SF for facion around -800 and a relentless assaul;t for less than that.

>Would it be possible to gain positive hive faction (my vote is no)?

no is the easy answere, but i think there is posability in yes (i'll explainj in detail later)

>What kind of cheesecake do you like?

i've never met a cheesecake i didn't eat

>What kinds of bots would be sent out in this hive strike force?

a couple seekers, and various assault bost i'd say.

>Should regular 'patrolling' hive bots (the ones we have now) be more agressive >towards you if your reputation is lower with them?

i'd like to see guardians be more agressive towards players with low hive standing, and colectores more skittish around players with low hive standing.

>Should hive strikeforces be sent out just in Sedina?

i'd say anywhere that is hive monitered space, so most of grey space, and posably sectores nearby strongholds and bastians in nation space as well.

now, here is an interesting twist on the Hive faction idea:
What if Hiove faction weren't listed in the character info scree, and there were several hive factions (say 3-5). Hive factions start at -200 for all characters and evolve naturaly from there.

This will make hive behavior more interesting because there could be civil wars between the hive factions. also it could allow for a mission thread where the player findes out about the fractured nature of the hive.

I don't know if this is such a keen idea. I like the idea of the Hive being aloof. It doesn't care if you explode some of its bots. It just doesn't think in those terms.

>What kind of cheesecake do you like?

i've never met a cheesecake i didn't eat

Me neither. Well, except for Frankie "Cheesecake" Vintaniaro. That wouldn't have worked out, because of, you know, all the back hair.

I'm more or less with wylfing on this... I can understand that perhaps after you've popped a few collector bots in a sector, they percieve you a greater threat, and therefore increase their level of aggression, but otherwise, no... the hive wouldn't care -who- is popping their precious bots, as they really don't like -anyody-.

wylfing: The Hive-mind mentality is changing with the new behaviour that is being developped. When it comes to sectors, they determine the threat level and will respond appropriately by sending additional guards. It's a risk vs. reward type of system.

I think it makes sense that if particular pilots who continually pose an ongoing threat to the Hive would be marked for extermination as a logical step toward successful resource gathering.

I would contend the inability to get your levels back to neutral... I think over time, if a pilot stops destroying Hive bots, the Hive should no longer consider them a significant threat and would no longer feel the need to use resources offensively, but would resort to a defensive posture. This time would be in the period of weeks.

Multiple Hive factions would be an interesting idea. The ultimate goal of the Hive is to seek out resources and reproduce, which should be the same for all Hive factions, however how they go about doing this could be slightly different:

Faction A operates like it does now... mining, defensive posture
Faction B may operate like pirates... assault traders carrying ores, passive aggresive posture
Faction C may operate like berzerkers... destroy anything that moves, collect anything that's dropped, very aggressive posture

I could see Faction B having an affinity for Ion storms, and popular mining spots, though it would probably assault Faction A's Transports if they ever meet in a storm.

Faction C would probably get A+B ticked off as it blasts away at anything and everything worth fighting.

Each one would still operate on a risk vs. reward system... if left unchecked, some interesting situations could become possible:

- Faction C might build a Leviathan in a station or WH sector (if ever made possible)
- Faction B might place assault and transport squads in Station/WH sectors
- Faction A might risk extermination in a particular system due to it's defensive nature and could amass huge assaults against B+C Faction occupied sectors.

Now, of course, some people are going to be all "No no, don't do this, etc.", but let me put forth: What reason does anyone have to supress the Hive if they're never in places that affect us?

If the Hive is not in our way, it shouldn't exist at all.

Edit: Cunjo has a good point: the Hive hates everyone... If that's to remain the case, then the different Hive factions /w differing logic would still be interesting

Awesome. Nice ideas. I was thinking along the same lines of hive standing being hidden as well.

Buuuut, some disagreements as well. I don't think the hive should be stupid enough to just let all of its bots be cannon fodder. It would want to protect its assets as well as its asset-gaining abilities. Having an entire sector of hive attack you as soon as you enter doesn't make sense either (unless you bring in a capitol ship or a fleet or something). Risk/attention exponent.

The idea of offering a 'cargo sacrifice' to the hive seems appealing as well... but it wouldn't be the same if the hive just turned into another nation you could join. But yeah, there probably should be some way that you could at least stave off the hive for a while. I don't think they really care about human feelings.

Having separate hive factions would be neat and all... but I think that would be way too much work and serve too little purpose. But - those are good ideas tkjode. Having those three specialized forces within the same hive organization is definitely something that would be cool (Faction C is perhaps a bit too extreme and uncharacteristic of the hive).

the reason i say you should be able to gain positive standing with the hive is because i think it would be cool for scoundrals to be able to hide among the hive.

anyway i liken the hive to an insect-like hierarky, where their goal is to survive, expand, and multiply. However that doesn't nesisarily mean that they all work togethere. in fact the blerbs about the hive inply that not all the hive queens went rouge at once. so perhaps there are several cominies of the hive. now to most people ants are ants and boits are bots, but having segmentation of several Hive factions would add a level of depth that could be discovered "why do the bots in Dau hate me so much? they follow me from sector to sector. no other bots do that"

Doukutsu: My initial ideas for the hive factions WERE actually to have specialized forces under the same hive, but I kinda wanted to build on Lord Q's original idea which seems to lend itself more to different Hive logic.

As it is, each bot type has it's own specific logic... observers observe, collectors collect, assaults assault and guardians guard, etc. Maybe all it'll take is to make some strike forces out of these guys to go after things that ticks the Hive off.

I still think it'd be funny to see a Faction C bastion station-camping in Sedina :P

I can see the CLM kinda getting good marks with the hive. yoda/UPN I know for a fact likes to space cargo (or at least he threatens it rather often ^_^;) so him being on the hive's good side isn't that farfetched.

Bleh. I don't like all this trying to make the Hive behave like a rational person. The Hive is insane. Loco. Bonkers. It is also non-human. I shall repeat that for emphasis: non-human. As in, stop anthropomorphizing.

It should not be possible to either anger or please a wonky artificial intelligence in any predictable way, because then it would be predictable, ergo sane. Did I mention it's also not a human being? The Hive might have observable behaviors viz. the way it tries to establish zones of control &c., but pissing it off is...banal. It reduces an interesting AI to just another person.

I imagine the hive as the zerg on in Star Craft. As the hive grows, it could build build manufaturing ships that allow the hive to create more and more powerful unit and upgrade to use less resources to make the same unit.

Also the different types of hives' idea sounds great.

The Hive Queens are the manufacturing ships.

Yah, wylfing - I agree. I wouldn't want it to behave human... (thats why I voted no to allow the player to completely control hive standing). I'd like it to stay away from becoming another nation... make it behave differently than the usual. But insane behavior alone means the hive can never be successful. They would die out extremely quickly. Some parts (much, actually) of their behavior would have to be congruent with human (or any other plant/animal) behavior. Any living being (heck even dead stuff), survives because it becomes strong. Completely random behavior won't make the hive strong. They have to have at least some form of rational behavior in order to survive.

I was just saying the hive needs some form of more defensive (somewhat offensive) behavior. Why else would they put weapons on their ships? It would make sense for them to use them in somewhat an intelligent manner.

But yeah, there are a lot of other aspects to the hive's 'personality' that could be changed to make it behave differently than humans.

Even if the hive is 'insane' (random would be a better term - insanity is for humans... O.o) you can still convey that behavior while maintaining a challenge for the player. But the hive right now is just not that challening. They're like cute sheep with somewhat sharp claws.

Behavior is not really what faction standing is about though. The Hive can behave in a way that makes sense given its imperatives. What I said was that you shouldn't be able to "get on its bad side." Faction is about social memory, like a grudge. Pasting an anthropomorphic social memory onto a rogue AI feels forced and dull, and no matter how you spin it does amount to making the Hive into yet another nation.

If you're in a sector where the Hive is trying to mine, and you're interfering with that, it reacts and tries to halt your interference. All good. But this idea that the Hive can get "mad" at you, so that it wastes its resources sending strike forces after you when you're no longer interfering with its operation turns it into a Hive that is no longer motivated by the logic of a machine but rather human social foibles ("I'm going to teach you a lesson!"). Ugh.

You mean, like, that the hive should see all players as an equal threat? Or you mean that single bots should only begin to defend themselves once you start shooting at them, and nothing more? Or both?

Because I agree that the hive shouldn't take on (all) human emotional characteristics. "I'm going to teach you a lesson" doesn't seem to me to fit the hive. But just because they defend themselves IN ADVANCE before you can get to their harvesters doesn't mean they're trying to teach you a lesson.

If 70% of the time when Bob has entered into hive territory, he has destroyed multiple hive defenders and ore harvesters, chances are when he comes into the territory again... he's going to start causing some unwanted havoc. Hive solution: ???? Don't adapt? Offer Bob some nice gift certificates?

Now, of course, if the hive doesn't feel like wasting its resources, then they probably wouldn't on some humanlike 'grudge'. Unfortunately, not even the godlike devs of VO can create an AI that can read player's minds, so if you are perceived as a threat... then the hive will make a preemptive strike before you can impede their progress, since that has been your trend in the past.

Maybe you could do something really cool with the AI, like if you flew through hive space with a bus (or other 'low-threat' ships), they would leave you completely untouched unless you either a) opened fire upon them, or b) were a huge hivekiller (but even then, if you're a huge hivekiller in a bus, they would just attempt to chase you off or something...). Perhaps they would just randomly attack you if they decided they needed more scrap metal, or if they know you're carrying ores. But basically, the hive needs to be more dangerous! You can have them intelligently defend themselves with nation-like 'strike forces' and such while keeping them separate from 'human' behaviors.

Hive should send bounty hunters on KOS players .
BH should track u every where in space untill it founds u and try to kill u. If player kill it first another one should spawn 1 hour later

>What I said was that you shouldn't be able to "get on its bad side."

having bad hive faction isn't so much getting on it's bade side as it is being tagged as persistant threat.

i think it was previously sugested that standin slowly inpruve over time, provided you don't destroy any bots in that time. and i have sugested that dumping cargo at a bastian could gain a small standing increase. now remember this isn't making the hive just another nation, no mater how much they "like" you you still can't dock wiuth a queen or buy bots as ships or escorts. rather positive hive standing simp[ly grantas you the ability to be ignored by their combat bots untill you do som,ething violent (perhaps positive hive standing should also deterierate towards slight negative standing over time)