Forums » Suggestions
As noted in my other post, "Frustrations with the Trading System" ( see http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/12140#147662 ), I have put myself on LOA (Leave of Absence) pending certain changes to the current trading/combat system that I would like to see implemented.
Here, I plan to discuss the combat side.
Currently, it seems to be that Vendetta Online is too tactical-combat-elitist. That is to say, for an RPG (Role-Playing Game), as opposed to an FPS (First-Person Shooter), it is too difficult to do well at this game without highly adept tactical combat skills (primarily reaction time and hand-eye coordination), which not every player has, or even wants to have.
For example, in my case, I am somewhat older than the majority of other players, and I have read similar complaints on other forums by other older players who have stated that because of their age, they cannot compete effectively in reaction time or hand-eye coordination against younger players with much faster reflexes. This is not an issue of combat practice, but of age: Older players are at a distinct disadvantage in these areas vs. younger players. However, many older players still are very interested in playing a real-time, space trading RPG with combat elements.
Unfortunately, in this game, if a player wants to excel in almost anything, there is currently no way to get around having adept tactical combat skills, because the current system does not discourage nonconsensual PvP (Player vs. Player) combat. Even if a player only wants to trade, and isn't interested in combat, the best routes are through gray space, which is frequently haunted by pirates who regularly assault even players who don't want to fight.
I see this as a problem, because it encourages a general elitist atmosphere focused too much on fighting skills. While this is fine for an FPS, Vendetta Online is advertised as an RPG, not an FPS, and I first came to this game in search of an interesting strategical space RPG, not a mainly-tactical space FPS.
One example of the negative effects of this setup is what often happens on chat. For example, I was once on Channel 100 when a certain pirate (whose name shall remain undisclosed) told me that, regardless of my familiarity with the system and my combat/trading levels, I was still a "newbie," while a certain other fighter-type player (whose name shall also remain undisclosed) was not. He hinted that this was because the other player was good at PvP combat, while I was not. Personally, I found this attitude immature and insulting.
Eventually, it became one reason that I eventually took an LOA from this game altogether.
Frankly, I'm not interested in PvP combat. I prefer to cooperate with other players in exchanging useful information on profitable trading routes and to hunt Hive Queens together, rather than to compete with other players for a higher Duel Stat.
I feel that there should be more separation of the PvP- and PvE (Player vs. Environment)-focused areas, and that the most profitable trading routes should not force traders who are not interested in PvP combat through nonconsensual PvP zones. The best way I see to do this is to assign equal rewards to the best trading routes through PvP and PvE areas, and to ensure that the best routes originating in PvE areas do not span nonconsensual PvP areas; otherwise, again, traders with the best PvP fighting skills will always get the cream of the crop routes, which is unfair to those traders who are not interested in PvP combat.
Also, the best routes passing through nonconsensual PvP space should both originate and end in PvP space. This would neatly separate the PvE and PvP zones.
Further, I feel that PvP combat should be more consensual, rather than nonconsensual. Many current network RPG's feature consensual, rather than nonconsensual, PvP combat. This is true, for example, of "Final Fantasy XI Online," "Dofus," and "Everquest." In "Dofus," it is impossible to PK (Player-Kill) players in neutral zones, and killing neutral (non-PvP) players anywhere lands the killer in jail for one day--during this time, that player cannot escape from jail to fight or explore anywhere else. In "EverQuest II," PvP combat, nonconsensual or consensual, has been abolished altogether. In China, as of August 4, 2005, all PvP combat has been classified as "violent," and has been officially outlawed.
While China's example may be slightly extreme, I do feel that it makes a point. Encouraging nonconsensual PvP combat encourages tactical elitism and marginalizes players without fast reaction time/adept hand-eye coordination. I strongly feel that the current nonconsensual PvP system should be made consensual, and that the PvP and PvE areas should be geographically separated. Further, I feel that a new jail system should be created, and that players who kill other players in non-PvP space should be jailed for one day for each offense.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
Here, I plan to discuss the combat side.
Currently, it seems to be that Vendetta Online is too tactical-combat-elitist. That is to say, for an RPG (Role-Playing Game), as opposed to an FPS (First-Person Shooter), it is too difficult to do well at this game without highly adept tactical combat skills (primarily reaction time and hand-eye coordination), which not every player has, or even wants to have.
For example, in my case, I am somewhat older than the majority of other players, and I have read similar complaints on other forums by other older players who have stated that because of their age, they cannot compete effectively in reaction time or hand-eye coordination against younger players with much faster reflexes. This is not an issue of combat practice, but of age: Older players are at a distinct disadvantage in these areas vs. younger players. However, many older players still are very interested in playing a real-time, space trading RPG with combat elements.
Unfortunately, in this game, if a player wants to excel in almost anything, there is currently no way to get around having adept tactical combat skills, because the current system does not discourage nonconsensual PvP (Player vs. Player) combat. Even if a player only wants to trade, and isn't interested in combat, the best routes are through gray space, which is frequently haunted by pirates who regularly assault even players who don't want to fight.
I see this as a problem, because it encourages a general elitist atmosphere focused too much on fighting skills. While this is fine for an FPS, Vendetta Online is advertised as an RPG, not an FPS, and I first came to this game in search of an interesting strategical space RPG, not a mainly-tactical space FPS.
One example of the negative effects of this setup is what often happens on chat. For example, I was once on Channel 100 when a certain pirate (whose name shall remain undisclosed) told me that, regardless of my familiarity with the system and my combat/trading levels, I was still a "newbie," while a certain other fighter-type player (whose name shall also remain undisclosed) was not. He hinted that this was because the other player was good at PvP combat, while I was not. Personally, I found this attitude immature and insulting.
Eventually, it became one reason that I eventually took an LOA from this game altogether.
Frankly, I'm not interested in PvP combat. I prefer to cooperate with other players in exchanging useful information on profitable trading routes and to hunt Hive Queens together, rather than to compete with other players for a higher Duel Stat.
I feel that there should be more separation of the PvP- and PvE (Player vs. Environment)-focused areas, and that the most profitable trading routes should not force traders who are not interested in PvP combat through nonconsensual PvP zones. The best way I see to do this is to assign equal rewards to the best trading routes through PvP and PvE areas, and to ensure that the best routes originating in PvE areas do not span nonconsensual PvP areas; otherwise, again, traders with the best PvP fighting skills will always get the cream of the crop routes, which is unfair to those traders who are not interested in PvP combat.
Also, the best routes passing through nonconsensual PvP space should both originate and end in PvP space. This would neatly separate the PvE and PvP zones.
Further, I feel that PvP combat should be more consensual, rather than nonconsensual. Many current network RPG's feature consensual, rather than nonconsensual, PvP combat. This is true, for example, of "Final Fantasy XI Online," "Dofus," and "Everquest." In "Dofus," it is impossible to PK (Player-Kill) players in neutral zones, and killing neutral (non-PvP) players anywhere lands the killer in jail for one day--during this time, that player cannot escape from jail to fight or explore anywhere else. In "EverQuest II," PvP combat, nonconsensual or consensual, has been abolished altogether. In China, as of August 4, 2005, all PvP combat has been classified as "violent," and has been officially outlawed.
While China's example may be slightly extreme, I do feel that it makes a point. Encouraging nonconsensual PvP combat encourages tactical elitism and marginalizes players without fast reaction time/adept hand-eye coordination. I strongly feel that the current nonconsensual PvP system should be made consensual, and that the PvP and PvE areas should be geographically separated. Further, I feel that a new jail system should be created, and that players who kill other players in non-PvP space should be jailed for one day for each offense.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
i have to say: i donm't think vendetta is for you, i mean the twitch based combat system, and open PVP are 2 of the distinguising and most core featurs of VO.
while some things will make some aspects of combat more strategic (capitle ship battles with masses of players comunicating using voice chat for example would allow for strategic positions) dogfighting will always be a game for the young.
while some things will make some aspects of combat more strategic (capitle ship battles with masses of players comunicating using voice chat for example would allow for strategic positions) dogfighting will always be a game for the young.
part of me would love to agree with these other two bozo's, mostly because of the way you phrased your complaint deku, (IMO its got a 'gimme what i want or i'm taking my toys and going home' thread running through it)
HOWEVER....
One of the things I personally have always wanted to see in VO was a more organized and logical trade/economic model, which would hopefully include reasonably profitable routes inside more protected nation spaces.
While the MOST profitable areas would still be in grey space, there would be other roles for people who wanted to remain safer inside nation space. (more risk usually equals more potential profit or faster potential profit, its a fact of real life, get used to it)
such roles might include things like
-owning a major company that employs other players/NPCs
-operating a manufacturing station
-etc.
Also Lord-Q while dogfighting will always be for the young... someone has to actually pilot and crew the capital ships, a task where experience and even a bit of caution will be more important. Someone who can focus on one task for more than the 3-5 minutes it takes for the average dogfight. If the control interface is more homeworldish (as it would almost have to be for a capital ship) than hand eye cordination wouldnt be nearly as important.
HOWEVER....
One of the things I personally have always wanted to see in VO was a more organized and logical trade/economic model, which would hopefully include reasonably profitable routes inside more protected nation spaces.
While the MOST profitable areas would still be in grey space, there would be other roles for people who wanted to remain safer inside nation space. (more risk usually equals more potential profit or faster potential profit, its a fact of real life, get used to it)
such roles might include things like
-owning a major company that employs other players/NPCs
-operating a manufacturing station
-etc.
Also Lord-Q while dogfighting will always be for the young... someone has to actually pilot and crew the capital ships, a task where experience and even a bit of caution will be more important. Someone who can focus on one task for more than the 3-5 minutes it takes for the average dogfight. If the control interface is more homeworldish (as it would almost have to be for a capital ship) than hand eye cordination wouldnt be nearly as important.
"One example of the negative effects of this setup is what often happens on chat. For example, I was once on Channel 100 when a certain pirate (whose name shall remain undisclosed) told me that, regardless of my familiarity with the system and my combat/trading levels, I was still a "newbie," while a certain other fighter-type player (whose name shall also remain undisclosed) was not. He hinted that this was because the other player was good at PvP combat, while I was not. Personally, I found this attitude immature and insulting."
Well if you realized the amount of time it took to make VO a twitch based game then you would realize how foolish you sound. Which makes you a noobie seeing as how you request change to take place on the part of 4 programers. Very unrealistic requests if you ask me and anyone else who plays this game.
As for your request to make trade routes more profitable in lower risk areas.......
Where's your reasoning?
Does it not make sense to make the more profitable trade routes less accessible by decreasing the success rate.
If you want to get by in this game with no effort then what's the point? Noone's going to make it easier for you to make money. It's already easy enough for kids with fast reflexes to avoid PvP all together in moths with a full load of samo. (obvious sarcasm)
But, I believe I made my point, and most would agree.
Well if you realized the amount of time it took to make VO a twitch based game then you would realize how foolish you sound. Which makes you a noobie seeing as how you request change to take place on the part of 4 programers. Very unrealistic requests if you ask me and anyone else who plays this game.
As for your request to make trade routes more profitable in lower risk areas.......
Where's your reasoning?
Does it not make sense to make the more profitable trade routes less accessible by decreasing the success rate.
If you want to get by in this game with no effort then what's the point? Noone's going to make it easier for you to make money. It's already easy enough for kids with fast reflexes to avoid PvP all together in moths with a full load of samo. (obvious sarcasm)
But, I believe I made my point, and most would agree.
Re: Spellcast
> part of me would love to agree with these other two bozo's, mostly because of the way you phrased your complaint deku, (IMO its got a 'gimme what i want or
> i'm taking my toys and going home' thread running through it)
Actually, it's more of a "I haven't been playing for over three months since late July and was thinking about leaving without saying anything, but changed my mind and decided to give some constructive criticism first" thread running through it.
At the end of July, I lost interest in playing after reading some posts in the Role-Playing Forum by a certain player (whose name shall remain undisclosed) who kept attacking anybody and everybody who appeared red on his radar and then running as soon as they retaliated. I felt that this player's tactics would soon provoke a backlash by angry players who felt that it should become more difficult to run (and hence for traders to run from pursuers as well).
After the Behemoth's top turbo speed became downgraded from 190 m/s to 180 m/s and in-system jumping became more difficult, I stopped playing entirely for a while because I reached the conclusion that trading on the best routes safely while earning time bonuses had become impractical.
Recently, however, I read the news that in-system jumping had become easier, and after trying out a few jumps on the test server, decided to see if I could find a way to make trading without engaging in PvP combat more interesting.
Perhaps I should have included the following disclaimer with my original message: "This message is being posted in response to complaints by some of the developers on the message board about lack of feedback from players who suddenly quit. After long thought, rather than just quit, at the risk of negative feedback from other players, I have decided to explain the reasons that I haven't been playing for the past three months, and what changes I would rather see with the system."
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
> part of me would love to agree with these other two bozo's, mostly because of the way you phrased your complaint deku, (IMO its got a 'gimme what i want or
> i'm taking my toys and going home' thread running through it)
Actually, it's more of a "I haven't been playing for over three months since late July and was thinking about leaving without saying anything, but changed my mind and decided to give some constructive criticism first" thread running through it.
At the end of July, I lost interest in playing after reading some posts in the Role-Playing Forum by a certain player (whose name shall remain undisclosed) who kept attacking anybody and everybody who appeared red on his radar and then running as soon as they retaliated. I felt that this player's tactics would soon provoke a backlash by angry players who felt that it should become more difficult to run (and hence for traders to run from pursuers as well).
After the Behemoth's top turbo speed became downgraded from 190 m/s to 180 m/s and in-system jumping became more difficult, I stopped playing entirely for a while because I reached the conclusion that trading on the best routes safely while earning time bonuses had become impractical.
Recently, however, I read the news that in-system jumping had become easier, and after trying out a few jumps on the test server, decided to see if I could find a way to make trading without engaging in PvP combat more interesting.
Perhaps I should have included the following disclaimer with my original message: "This message is being posted in response to complaints by some of the developers on the message board about lack of feedback from players who suddenly quit. After long thought, rather than just quit, at the risk of negative feedback from other players, I have decided to explain the reasons that I haven't been playing for the past three months, and what changes I would rather see with the system."
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
"Also Lord-Q while dogfighting will always be for the young... someone has to actually pilot and crew the capital ships, a task where experience and even a bit of caution will be more important. Someone who can focus on one task for more than the 3-5 minutes it takes for the average dogfight. If the control interface is more homeworldish (as it would almost have to be for a capital ship) than hand eye cordination wouldnt be nearly as important."
um, yea, that's basicly what i said only i took less words to do it:
fighters (everything in game now) = fast paced dogfighters not very strategic
cap ships (ships too big to dock, and with 1 or more turrets): gunners still need fast reflexes, but the comander is a strategist.
support roles (awaks pilots, squadren leaders, etc.) will need some combination of strategic capability and reflexes.
um, yea, that's basicly what i said only i took less words to do it:
fighters (everything in game now) = fast paced dogfighters not very strategic
cap ships (ships too big to dock, and with 1 or more turrets): gunners still need fast reflexes, but the comander is a strategist.
support roles (awaks pilots, squadren leaders, etc.) will need some combination of strategic capability and reflexes.
One of the things that I like about this game is that I'm a 35-year old slow-reaction-type that can go head-to-head with basically any other player due to my extremely low ping. Something I never had thru gameranger or any of the other places. (Not that I *win* all the time, but at least I feel that I'm not completely lost either, and I never say to myself "I'll never beat this guy, his reactions times are too fast for me".)
For me, nonconsentual PvP is what made the game "scary" for me when I first started out trading & mining, always checking the sector list for unknown people. Now it's what makes the game fun.
Nonconsensual PvP is realistic. I mean, if you were a good combat pilot not in the employ of any nation, you would gravitate to grayspace and try to make your living "enticing" money and goods out of other players. Or if you had a law-abiding streak in you you might hire yourself out as an escort.
Anyway, I really like the way that combat is set up in this game, that's why I keep coming back, hoping that one of these days, Shape will have an off day and I'll beat him.
However, along with Deku I yearn for the day when this game becomes more RPG-like (crafting, economics, multiple missions at a time, politics, intrigue, etc etc), but the best thing about VO for me will always remain the one-on-one duel between evenly matched opponents.
Oh and PS: FM, you said you try to spellcheck posts that bug you? PLEASE spend some time with Lord Q's posts... Hehe
For me, nonconsentual PvP is what made the game "scary" for me when I first started out trading & mining, always checking the sector list for unknown people. Now it's what makes the game fun.
Nonconsensual PvP is realistic. I mean, if you were a good combat pilot not in the employ of any nation, you would gravitate to grayspace and try to make your living "enticing" money and goods out of other players. Or if you had a law-abiding streak in you you might hire yourself out as an escort.
Anyway, I really like the way that combat is set up in this game, that's why I keep coming back, hoping that one of these days, Shape will have an off day and I'll beat him.
However, along with Deku I yearn for the day when this game becomes more RPG-like (crafting, economics, multiple missions at a time, politics, intrigue, etc etc), but the best thing about VO for me will always remain the one-on-one duel between evenly matched opponents.
Oh and PS: FM, you said you try to spellcheck posts that bug you? PLEASE spend some time with Lord Q's posts... Hehe
Re: BoxCarRacer
> Where's your reasoning?
> Does it not make sense to make the more profitable trade routes less accessible by decreasing the success rate.
>
> If you want to get by in this game with no effort then what's the point? Noone's going to make it easier for you to make money. It's already easy enough for kids
> with fast reflexes to avoid PvP all together in moths with a full load of samo. (obvious sarcasm)
Not "with no effort," but rather "with more strategic effort, and less tactical effort." The way I see the issue is as follows: Vendetta Online is advertised as an RPG, not an FPS. RPG's, unlike FPS's, usually place at least as much, if not more, emphasis on strategy, as opposed to tactics. The way that this issue translates into VO, as I see it, is that players without good tactical reflexes should be able to enjoy this game just as much as players with good tactical reflexes.
The only way that I can see this happening is to separate geographically the PvP and non-PvP areas, put effective penalties on players who coerce nonconsensual PvP onto unwilling players, and to ensure that non-PvP players have just as much opportunity to achieve fame, fortune, and prestige in their respective areas (mainly trading, mining, research, and PvE combat) as do PvP players in theirs (mainly PvP combat).
Basically, just separate the PvP and non-PvP areas geographically, and ensure that the areas are allowed, but not required, to interact to achieve their highest goals. That way, players who want to participate in PvP can do so, while players who don't want to do so don't have to.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornigier
> Where's your reasoning?
> Does it not make sense to make the more profitable trade routes less accessible by decreasing the success rate.
>
> If you want to get by in this game with no effort then what's the point? Noone's going to make it easier for you to make money. It's already easy enough for kids
> with fast reflexes to avoid PvP all together in moths with a full load of samo. (obvious sarcasm)
Not "with no effort," but rather "with more strategic effort, and less tactical effort." The way I see the issue is as follows: Vendetta Online is advertised as an RPG, not an FPS. RPG's, unlike FPS's, usually place at least as much, if not more, emphasis on strategy, as opposed to tactics. The way that this issue translates into VO, as I see it, is that players without good tactical reflexes should be able to enjoy this game just as much as players with good tactical reflexes.
The only way that I can see this happening is to separate geographically the PvP and non-PvP areas, put effective penalties on players who coerce nonconsensual PvP onto unwilling players, and to ensure that non-PvP players have just as much opportunity to achieve fame, fortune, and prestige in their respective areas (mainly trading, mining, research, and PvE combat) as do PvP players in theirs (mainly PvP combat).
Basically, just separate the PvP and non-PvP areas geographically, and ensure that the areas are allowed, but not required, to interact to achieve their highest goals. That way, players who want to participate in PvP can do so, while players who don't want to do so don't have to.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornigier
the argument here is very simple, in VO the player determins the outcome of a fight, not the character. this is an FPS mindset, not an RPG mindset. compare to the likes of WoW.
now, thing is, this is not a make or break the definition of the games. people roleplay in VO and some people fight differently with different characters (heaven knows I did) so there is no real *limit* to your roleplaying. what you *don't* get though is your character to advance in such a fashion that what you can defeat in combat changes. you get new ships and new weapons, but it doesn't really help if you can't use it well.
after playing a bit of WoW *cough* I've come to a very simple conclusion. the *only* way to make combat even remotely interesting long term *is* to have twitch be a decently large role. PvE in WoW (and the few other RPGs I've tried) is hidiously boring since you know the outcome of almost every fight before it starts. you're level x and your enemy is x-2, you'll probably win. if he's x * 1.5, you're dead. of course, relevant slices differ, but the point remains. the way around this in games like WoW is to add special mobs and group efforts of all kinds, but 90-98% of your fights are still going to be soloed.
there are *very* interesting possibilites in large high-level RAIDs, but, well, you've spent two weeks ingame of trying not to fall asleep to get there. at lower levels it's almost impossible to create interesting combat settings, since most players will just level a bit beyond what the setting requires which drastically alters the difficulty of the task. capping what levels you can do different stuff at on the other hand cripples peoples freedom to map their own destiny to a mostly unacceptable level.
so, where does this leave you? leveling becomes purely a matter of keeping in your level slice and following the structure layed out for you. if VO started doing this it'd have nothing to separate it from the crowd and pretty much all the hardcore players would fall asleep. heck, I fall asleep when griding in WoW these days, and it still doesn't kill me. it might focus more on my characters abilities, but it gives me, the player *ZERO* sense of accomplishment to even level to 60. it says nothing about my abilities as a player, it only says something about the time I've invested.
now, as for trading. high gain should be coupled with high risk. and high risk means you face the baddest things out there. and players are it. AIs are predictable. once a tactic is known and out in the open, that mob / bot whatever is a complete bore -- and not a real risk anymore. adding numbers and frequency to compensate is just depressing, since it makes it a very hard act to balance the deal and not end up with situations that are guaranteed death.
so, hm, I'm in the crowd of "yay for twitch" much more now than ever. besides, there are a lot of ways to avoid twitch combat by using navroutes well and thinking about layouts both for cargo and weapons for your trade ship. players who can't keep up with the twitch combat part can and should enjoy it today, but you'll have to keep in mind that the game doesn't *just* gear towards you. for a long time it was pretty much impossible to sink a moth even if the moth did 0 FPS-style fighting. at this point, it's more killable, but you still have a shot at getting away. you just need to employ a good bit of strategy for your run.
edit: even today, trading and mining earnings have very little to do with twitch abilities. Alamar has a *LARGE* stash of ore and wasn't challenged more than a dozen times in six+ months of mining to get get it. all of those were while station mining in grey, and I survived every attack.
as for geographically separating players, no, I don't like it at all. it creates two worlds in a world. two games in one. all games should make *one* game and make *that* game to the best of their abilities and vision.
now, thing is, this is not a make or break the definition of the games. people roleplay in VO and some people fight differently with different characters (heaven knows I did) so there is no real *limit* to your roleplaying. what you *don't* get though is your character to advance in such a fashion that what you can defeat in combat changes. you get new ships and new weapons, but it doesn't really help if you can't use it well.
after playing a bit of WoW *cough* I've come to a very simple conclusion. the *only* way to make combat even remotely interesting long term *is* to have twitch be a decently large role. PvE in WoW (and the few other RPGs I've tried) is hidiously boring since you know the outcome of almost every fight before it starts. you're level x and your enemy is x-2, you'll probably win. if he's x * 1.5, you're dead. of course, relevant slices differ, but the point remains. the way around this in games like WoW is to add special mobs and group efforts of all kinds, but 90-98% of your fights are still going to be soloed.
there are *very* interesting possibilites in large high-level RAIDs, but, well, you've spent two weeks ingame of trying not to fall asleep to get there. at lower levels it's almost impossible to create interesting combat settings, since most players will just level a bit beyond what the setting requires which drastically alters the difficulty of the task. capping what levels you can do different stuff at on the other hand cripples peoples freedom to map their own destiny to a mostly unacceptable level.
so, where does this leave you? leveling becomes purely a matter of keeping in your level slice and following the structure layed out for you. if VO started doing this it'd have nothing to separate it from the crowd and pretty much all the hardcore players would fall asleep. heck, I fall asleep when griding in WoW these days, and it still doesn't kill me. it might focus more on my characters abilities, but it gives me, the player *ZERO* sense of accomplishment to even level to 60. it says nothing about my abilities as a player, it only says something about the time I've invested.
now, as for trading. high gain should be coupled with high risk. and high risk means you face the baddest things out there. and players are it. AIs are predictable. once a tactic is known and out in the open, that mob / bot whatever is a complete bore -- and not a real risk anymore. adding numbers and frequency to compensate is just depressing, since it makes it a very hard act to balance the deal and not end up with situations that are guaranteed death.
so, hm, I'm in the crowd of "yay for twitch" much more now than ever. besides, there are a lot of ways to avoid twitch combat by using navroutes well and thinking about layouts both for cargo and weapons for your trade ship. players who can't keep up with the twitch combat part can and should enjoy it today, but you'll have to keep in mind that the game doesn't *just* gear towards you. for a long time it was pretty much impossible to sink a moth even if the moth did 0 FPS-style fighting. at this point, it's more killable, but you still have a shot at getting away. you just need to employ a good bit of strategy for your run.
edit: even today, trading and mining earnings have very little to do with twitch abilities. Alamar has a *LARGE* stash of ore and wasn't challenged more than a dozen times in six+ months of mining to get get it. all of those were while station mining in grey, and I survived every attack.
as for geographically separating players, no, I don't like it at all. it creates two worlds in a world. two games in one. all games should make *one* game and make *that* game to the best of their abilities and vision.
I agree with some aspects of Deku's frustration, but disagree with other aspects.
I've actually also been somewhat frustrated with the combat system, in that it more resembles a FPS than an RPG. However, I personally see the source of my frustration as actually the opposite of Deku's: IMO, combat in Vendetta Online is currently too consensual, and we need more non-consensual combat (more details on my opinion here at the end of this post).
To describe how I feel about the combat system, I need to differentiate between the player's desires from a perspective outside the game, and the character's desires from a perspective inside the game.
The player's main desire is, of course, to have fun. I'm pretty sure that's the same for all players. But, what is fun can vary widely between different players. Which means the devs have to choose between making the game "fun" as seen by some group A, but "not fun" for group B, or else "fun" for group B, but "not fun" for group A - the old maxim is true: you can't please everyone. So usually the devs choose to do what they consider fun - which in the case of Vendetta Online's devs includes non-consensual combat. Incarnate has repeatedly said in interviews things like "no where in the universe is completely safe."
So, the devs have already made their judgement call as to how to implement PvP. Now we the players have to make our judgement call: do we agree with that, or disagree? In Deku's case, he disagrees. Now the question is: does Deku disagree so much that the game is going to not be enough fun to be worth playing? That's up to him to decide. For me, I'm just going to make the comment that I have never and probably will never play a game that I've felt was completely perfect in every aspect - but that hasn't stopped me from having fun. Of course, I don't enjoy all games, but if I only enjoyed games that I completely agreed with every aspect of the game, then I wouldn't enjoy any.
So anyway, a geographic segregation or other limitation on PvP in VO is something the devs have already made clear isn't going to happen. However, expanding the PvE aspects of the game has been pretty much their #1 focus of late. DELIVERATOR & the new Hive and the planned economy redux have and are continuing to make PvE a much bigger part of the game (just an example: when I read this thread: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/12104 I was like Smittens and who killed a Levi in record time?!? I'm surprised they managed to kill it at all, let alone in record time, I'd have expected them to shoot each other in the back way too much to accomplish anything). So they are trying to making PvE more interesting, more fun, and a larger part of the game. Hopefully Deku will be able to enjoy the PvE aspects, even though the PvP aspects aren't going to be removed or limited.
Anyway, more ramblings on my personal opinion of how the Combat System could be improved: I originally created Beolach intending him to be my primary character. I had read the backstory, and decided that I wanted to roleplay Beolach as what could be described in traditional roleplaying terms as a "Lawful Good" Itani. Beolach does not desire to fight at all, he desires that the Serco and Itani get along peacefully. So Beolach never takes aggressive action against the Serco, and as long as the Serco don't take aggressive action against Beolach, he can live in peace as he desires. But, I the player actually don't want Beolach to get what he desires here: I want Serco to invade Itani space and make attacks that Beolach will defend against. But do the Serco ever invade Itani space, causing Beolach to regretfully take up arms? Not very often. Usually they head off to grey space to get their combat. Which means I the player don't get to play Beolach the way I want: either I have to change Beolach's morals and go looking for a fight, which I don't want to do, I choose Beolach's morals to be what I wanted them to be; or else I'm not going to get the PvP combat that I the player want. So I've been playing more as alts than as Beolach recently, despite my orginal intention that Beolach would be my primary character.
So that's what I meant when I said I wanted more non-consensual combat: currently, the vast majority of PvP combat has at best a very shallow roleplaying basis at most. People just get together in Sedina B-8 and shoot each other. Why? Itani shoot Serco, and Serco shoot Itani, 'cause they're at war - but why is the war taking place in Sedina? Sure, the Serco CtC route, but the fighting in Sedina is for the most part unrelated to CtC. Why aren't the Serco coming up and invading Itani space? Why doesn't the Order of Akan launch attacks on Serco space? I really, really want to see more missions and other things that build on the Itani/Serco war. And a large part of that would be non-consensual combat (from an in-game perspective).
I've actually also been somewhat frustrated with the combat system, in that it more resembles a FPS than an RPG. However, I personally see the source of my frustration as actually the opposite of Deku's: IMO, combat in Vendetta Online is currently too consensual, and we need more non-consensual combat (more details on my opinion here at the end of this post).
To describe how I feel about the combat system, I need to differentiate between the player's desires from a perspective outside the game, and the character's desires from a perspective inside the game.
The player's main desire is, of course, to have fun. I'm pretty sure that's the same for all players. But, what is fun can vary widely between different players. Which means the devs have to choose between making the game "fun" as seen by some group A, but "not fun" for group B, or else "fun" for group B, but "not fun" for group A - the old maxim is true: you can't please everyone. So usually the devs choose to do what they consider fun - which in the case of Vendetta Online's devs includes non-consensual combat. Incarnate has repeatedly said in interviews things like "no where in the universe is completely safe."
So, the devs have already made their judgement call as to how to implement PvP. Now we the players have to make our judgement call: do we agree with that, or disagree? In Deku's case, he disagrees. Now the question is: does Deku disagree so much that the game is going to not be enough fun to be worth playing? That's up to him to decide. For me, I'm just going to make the comment that I have never and probably will never play a game that I've felt was completely perfect in every aspect - but that hasn't stopped me from having fun. Of course, I don't enjoy all games, but if I only enjoyed games that I completely agreed with every aspect of the game, then I wouldn't enjoy any.
So anyway, a geographic segregation or other limitation on PvP in VO is something the devs have already made clear isn't going to happen. However, expanding the PvE aspects of the game has been pretty much their #1 focus of late. DELIVERATOR & the new Hive and the planned economy redux have and are continuing to make PvE a much bigger part of the game (just an example: when I read this thread: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/12104 I was like Smittens and who killed a Levi in record time?!? I'm surprised they managed to kill it at all, let alone in record time, I'd have expected them to shoot each other in the back way too much to accomplish anything). So they are trying to making PvE more interesting, more fun, and a larger part of the game. Hopefully Deku will be able to enjoy the PvE aspects, even though the PvP aspects aren't going to be removed or limited.
Anyway, more ramblings on my personal opinion of how the Combat System could be improved: I originally created Beolach intending him to be my primary character. I had read the backstory, and decided that I wanted to roleplay Beolach as what could be described in traditional roleplaying terms as a "Lawful Good" Itani. Beolach does not desire to fight at all, he desires that the Serco and Itani get along peacefully. So Beolach never takes aggressive action against the Serco, and as long as the Serco don't take aggressive action against Beolach, he can live in peace as he desires. But, I the player actually don't want Beolach to get what he desires here: I want Serco to invade Itani space and make attacks that Beolach will defend against. But do the Serco ever invade Itani space, causing Beolach to regretfully take up arms? Not very often. Usually they head off to grey space to get their combat. Which means I the player don't get to play Beolach the way I want: either I have to change Beolach's morals and go looking for a fight, which I don't want to do, I choose Beolach's morals to be what I wanted them to be; or else I'm not going to get the PvP combat that I the player want. So I've been playing more as alts than as Beolach recently, despite my orginal intention that Beolach would be my primary character.
So that's what I meant when I said I wanted more non-consensual combat: currently, the vast majority of PvP combat has at best a very shallow roleplaying basis at most. People just get together in Sedina B-8 and shoot each other. Why? Itani shoot Serco, and Serco shoot Itani, 'cause they're at war - but why is the war taking place in Sedina? Sure, the Serco CtC route, but the fighting in Sedina is for the most part unrelated to CtC. Why aren't the Serco coming up and invading Itani space? Why doesn't the Order of Akan launch attacks on Serco space? I really, really want to see more missions and other things that build on the Itani/Serco war. And a large part of that would be non-consensual combat (from an in-game perspective).
Deku, why do you need to compete against the traders who trade in grey?
Why is it not fair that they enjoy more profitable routes?
Seeing as the ONLY danger in trading comes from traveling in grey, I don't see your logic that both routes should cost the same.
How would you feel if they made trade routes in Nation space vulnerable to Aerna Seeker attacks? How is that better than having players fulfilling that same function?
With bots, its either dangerous, or it isn't. Players are the only way that danger can be variable.
Traveling through Grey/PvP space is not a "tactical" form of playing the game. There is strategy as well, (such as repairing when you're damaged, waiting for pirates to disperse, or torturing them by jumping in and out, until they finally give up)
There IS NO strategy to trading in Nation Space, you just travel until you find a good place to sell your goods, and then repeat about 200 times.
I think that the traders who take their ships and their goods into danger's way should get more rewards. When it comes down to it, they have to work harder for their cash.
Also, A point regarding traders who "...do not want to fight."
escaping from a pirate rarely EVER involves fighting. Its running, its dropping mines, its jumping through 4 systems, landing to repair, then tricking the pirate.
So, just because there's a threat of exploding, you can't convince me that your reaction times are at fault here. You don't need to use em.
Why is it not fair that they enjoy more profitable routes?
Seeing as the ONLY danger in trading comes from traveling in grey, I don't see your logic that both routes should cost the same.
How would you feel if they made trade routes in Nation space vulnerable to Aerna Seeker attacks? How is that better than having players fulfilling that same function?
With bots, its either dangerous, or it isn't. Players are the only way that danger can be variable.
Traveling through Grey/PvP space is not a "tactical" form of playing the game. There is strategy as well, (such as repairing when you're damaged, waiting for pirates to disperse, or torturing them by jumping in and out, until they finally give up)
There IS NO strategy to trading in Nation Space, you just travel until you find a good place to sell your goods, and then repeat about 200 times.
I think that the traders who take their ships and their goods into danger's way should get more rewards. When it comes down to it, they have to work harder for their cash.
Also, A point regarding traders who "...do not want to fight."
escaping from a pirate rarely EVER involves fighting. Its running, its dropping mines, its jumping through 4 systems, landing to repair, then tricking the pirate.
So, just because there's a threat of exploding, you can't convince me that your reaction times are at fault here. You don't need to use em.
Wow deku, thank you for that extensive and entirely useless post. We all appreciate your input. You can go ahead and get the hell out of here now, never to return, hopefully.
DekuDekuplex Ornitier, thanks in general for the note so that people know what is going on. If you are interested at some point in trying again, I would suggest trying to mine Heliocene from Hive infested sectors in nation space and/or waiting until the crafting and economy redux are done. You sound like someone who could have fun trying to run a station.
BoxCarRacer, DekuDekuplex Ornitier never stated that he wanted more profitable trade routes through less dangerous territory, just through less PvP territory. For example, it might be cool if there was a really profitable route that always had 3-5 heavily defended, Hive infested ion storms that you HAD to go through.
Really good post, terjekv!
I would also remind everyone that, hopefully, one day, NPCs and PCs will be pretty close to interchangeable. That is part of the Des' vision for this game and a significant part of the draw for me (currently in grad school for A.I.).
I, too, happen to like cooperating with people in PvE much better than PvP (which I happen to suck at despite being a young 22). I am REALLY looking forward to the immense efforts the Devs are putting in to make PvE an important part of the game. However, I must say that I am often frustrated by my inability to find players to cooperate with.
Beolach, your post is also exceptionally good. Currently, I think a lot of the non-existent Serco-Itani conflict is due to a near complete lack of reward/satisfaction from doing anything. If I attack SFs in Geira Rutilus, I get a tiny bounty on my head and I lose access to purchasing SCPs. What if I turn traitor and attack Itani SFs? The exact same thing, but I lose access to purchasing Valks. No one can destroy a station to change a border, there are no BP score boards (how cool would that be - BP kills [player/total]), and there is no in-game benefit after a point, just pointless levelling and pointless credits. Does anyone really care about having 100 million credits instead of only 10 million, or about having combat piloting license level 12 instead of 10?
BoxCarRacer, DekuDekuplex Ornitier never stated that he wanted more profitable trade routes through less dangerous territory, just through less PvP territory. For example, it might be cool if there was a really profitable route that always had 3-5 heavily defended, Hive infested ion storms that you HAD to go through.
Really good post, terjekv!
I would also remind everyone that, hopefully, one day, NPCs and PCs will be pretty close to interchangeable. That is part of the Des' vision for this game and a significant part of the draw for me (currently in grad school for A.I.).
I, too, happen to like cooperating with people in PvE much better than PvP (which I happen to suck at despite being a young 22). I am REALLY looking forward to the immense efforts the Devs are putting in to make PvE an important part of the game. However, I must say that I am often frustrated by my inability to find players to cooperate with.
Beolach, your post is also exceptionally good. Currently, I think a lot of the non-existent Serco-Itani conflict is due to a near complete lack of reward/satisfaction from doing anything. If I attack SFs in Geira Rutilus, I get a tiny bounty on my head and I lose access to purchasing SCPs. What if I turn traitor and attack Itani SFs? The exact same thing, but I lose access to purchasing Valks. No one can destroy a station to change a border, there are no BP score boards (how cool would that be - BP kills [player/total]), and there is no in-game benefit after a point, just pointless levelling and pointless credits. Does anyone really care about having 100 million credits instead of only 10 million, or about having combat piloting license level 12 instead of 10?
wait.. you left because of he who shall not be named....
His tactics are what resulted in the changes in jump rules and some bugfixes that had been more or less floating along under the radar. Contrary to what you seem to believe PvP doesnt neccesarily mean you have to turn around and fight, running is an option, and is still far far easier than chasing.
As to your concerns about PvP vs PvE, If that is what you truly want to see than I wish you the best of luck in whatever new game you find. When Ultima Online seperated the PvP and non-PvP worlds on thier servers, I cancelled my account. There isn't much point to a game where all you do is swat pesky little AI critters, whats the point of making it a MMO.
As to your complaint about VO being advertized as an RPG and playing like a FPS, mostly thats because there are only 4 poor overworked developers taking a testbed universe built around this cool new game engine they designed, and trying to add content to it while keeping the rent paid and groceries in the fridge.
Quite frankly the game WAS a FPS. the network test was never meant to be a full game, it was a showcase of the potential to get a publisher to shower guildsoftware with money and let them hire some more members to flesh out a much better game.
When no publsihers showed up, the devs had two choices, let the project die and move on to other things, or do thier best to bootstrap up from minimal to awesome. Some aspects of the game do leave a lot to be desired at this point, but you might consider checking back in a year or so.
One more quick note:
one of the core concepts of VO is non-consentual PVP, and grey space is meant to be the more rewarding AND more dangerous part of the game, so placing trade routes that provide equal results elsewhere wouldnt make much sense. (actually however if you dont do the trading missions there are trade routes just as profitable, if not more so, that are located deep within itani/serco space. Mostly because no-one ever uses them and the current distribution of trade goods is somewhat random)
Anyhow, Ta.
His tactics are what resulted in the changes in jump rules and some bugfixes that had been more or less floating along under the radar. Contrary to what you seem to believe PvP doesnt neccesarily mean you have to turn around and fight, running is an option, and is still far far easier than chasing.
As to your concerns about PvP vs PvE, If that is what you truly want to see than I wish you the best of luck in whatever new game you find. When Ultima Online seperated the PvP and non-PvP worlds on thier servers, I cancelled my account. There isn't much point to a game where all you do is swat pesky little AI critters, whats the point of making it a MMO.
As to your complaint about VO being advertized as an RPG and playing like a FPS, mostly thats because there are only 4 poor overworked developers taking a testbed universe built around this cool new game engine they designed, and trying to add content to it while keeping the rent paid and groceries in the fridge.
Quite frankly the game WAS a FPS. the network test was never meant to be a full game, it was a showcase of the potential to get a publisher to shower guildsoftware with money and let them hire some more members to flesh out a much better game.
When no publsihers showed up, the devs had two choices, let the project die and move on to other things, or do thier best to bootstrap up from minimal to awesome. Some aspects of the game do leave a lot to be desired at this point, but you might consider checking back in a year or so.
One more quick note:
one of the core concepts of VO is non-consentual PVP, and grey space is meant to be the more rewarding AND more dangerous part of the game, so placing trade routes that provide equal results elsewhere wouldnt make much sense. (actually however if you dont do the trading missions there are trade routes just as profitable, if not more so, that are located deep within itani/serco space. Mostly because no-one ever uses them and the current distribution of trade goods is somewhat random)
Anyhow, Ta.
Re: Spellcast
> wait.. you left because of he who shall not be named....
>
> His tactics are what resulted in the changes in jump rules and some bugfixes that had been more or less floating along under the radar.
Exactly. After reading his repeated, lengthy posts about his reasoning behind his hit-and-run tactics, and witnessing the reactions of almost, if not completely, everybody else who got harrassed, I could see what was coming: The devs would make it impossible for him to continue his tactics. Specifically, they would make it harder to use hit-and-run tactics, and hence harder to compete without excellent tactical skills in general--exactly the opposite of what I wanted, since I wanted more focus on strategy, and less focus on tactics.
Essentially, by his extreme behavior, he was provoking an enormous backlash that would wipe out my niche in the system, and I could see it coming. That's the reason that I stopped playing to see what would happen.
Sure enough, the in-system jump rules became changed to make it more difficult to flee pursuers--and hence also for traders to elude pirates. Three months later, the only reason that I ever bothered to try the game again is that, contrary to my expectation, the rules got changed back recently enough to allow rapid multi-sector-jumps again. I wasn't expecting this, and it came as a welcome relief.
> As to your concerns about PvP vs PvE, If that is what you truly want to see than I wish you the best of luck in whatever new game you find. When Ultima Online
> seperated the PvP and non-PvP worlds on thier servers, I cancelled my account. There isn't much point to a game where all you do is swat pesky little AI critters,
> whats the point of making it a MMO.
Actually, I don't need any more "luck" in "find[ing]" a game, because I'm currently playing a turn-based (i.e., non-twitch-based) tactical fantasy (i.e., non-space) French MMORPG, "Dofus." Just for comparison, whereas VO integrates the PvP and non-PvP worlds, that game neatly separates them into separate geographical areas, and promotes cooperative gameplay by making rare items drop with drastically higher percentages when players team up than when they play solo. Contrary to what you said, there actually is a point to "swat[ting] pesky little AI critters" there, because the entire point there is to get a certain set of rare items, which can only be obtained by teaming with other players--they cannot be obtained by playing solo.
[rant]
What I don't like about PvP is that it creates an unfriendly atmosphere for players who prefer cooperation to competition. For example, if a player were to fight you 1000 times and lose every single time, that would probably boost your ego and lower that player's. That player would probably get ridiculed left and right on Channel 100. If that player had slightly slower motor reflexes than you and didn't practice much, that player would almost certainly lose against you every single time, no matter how many times that player encountered you. What would be the point of playing against you? That would be no different than trying to elude Aerna Seekers in a Behemoth in an ion storm.
Actually, in a way, it would be worse: With Aerna Seekers, at least they don't evolve and are predictable, so with enough practice, even with reflexes slightly slower than theirs, it might be possible to come up with a way to elude them; but with you, since you are organic, you would evolve with each battle, so that it would be virtually impossible for a player with significantly slower (even if only slightly slower) reflexes ever to win against you in an otherwise even situation.
With players, there is such an element called "aptitude"; some players are born as fighters, and some just aren't. In a series of even situations, it is statistically almost impossible for a player with low aptitude (call this player a "sheep") ever to win against a player with much higher aptitude (call this player a "wolf").
With NPC's, aptitude doesn't come into play, because no matter how intricate the AI, at some point, they can be predicted, and eventually defeated; with players, wolves will both out-fight and out-evolve sheep, so that for sheep simply to try to out-predict wolves will not work, because the wolves will almost always out-predict the sheep.
The result? Given otherwise even conditions, the sheep must either practice even harder than the wolves, or give up winning. If the sheep are too busy with real life and don't have enough time to out-practice the wolves, they must either accept defeat every time, or leave.
Frankly, I don't see the fun in this for the sheep. They either get defeated (call this result "eaten") every time by the wolves, or they run. It'd be nice if there were some safe area of the woods (the "universe" in VO terms) where the sheep could team up with other sheep in looking for rare kinds of grass (items dropped by Queen Hives and Leviathans in VO terms). But then again, the shepherds ("developers" in VO terms) don't make the fences ("penalties for nonconsensual PvP combat") high enough to keep out the wolves near the areas with the tastiest grass ("best ores/dropped items"), do they?
[/rant]
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
> wait.. you left because of he who shall not be named....
>
> His tactics are what resulted in the changes in jump rules and some bugfixes that had been more or less floating along under the radar.
Exactly. After reading his repeated, lengthy posts about his reasoning behind his hit-and-run tactics, and witnessing the reactions of almost, if not completely, everybody else who got harrassed, I could see what was coming: The devs would make it impossible for him to continue his tactics. Specifically, they would make it harder to use hit-and-run tactics, and hence harder to compete without excellent tactical skills in general--exactly the opposite of what I wanted, since I wanted more focus on strategy, and less focus on tactics.
Essentially, by his extreme behavior, he was provoking an enormous backlash that would wipe out my niche in the system, and I could see it coming. That's the reason that I stopped playing to see what would happen.
Sure enough, the in-system jump rules became changed to make it more difficult to flee pursuers--and hence also for traders to elude pirates. Three months later, the only reason that I ever bothered to try the game again is that, contrary to my expectation, the rules got changed back recently enough to allow rapid multi-sector-jumps again. I wasn't expecting this, and it came as a welcome relief.
> As to your concerns about PvP vs PvE, If that is what you truly want to see than I wish you the best of luck in whatever new game you find. When Ultima Online
> seperated the PvP and non-PvP worlds on thier servers, I cancelled my account. There isn't much point to a game where all you do is swat pesky little AI critters,
> whats the point of making it a MMO.
Actually, I don't need any more "luck" in "find[ing]" a game, because I'm currently playing a turn-based (i.e., non-twitch-based) tactical fantasy (i.e., non-space) French MMORPG, "Dofus." Just for comparison, whereas VO integrates the PvP and non-PvP worlds, that game neatly separates them into separate geographical areas, and promotes cooperative gameplay by making rare items drop with drastically higher percentages when players team up than when they play solo. Contrary to what you said, there actually is a point to "swat[ting] pesky little AI critters" there, because the entire point there is to get a certain set of rare items, which can only be obtained by teaming with other players--they cannot be obtained by playing solo.
[rant]
What I don't like about PvP is that it creates an unfriendly atmosphere for players who prefer cooperation to competition. For example, if a player were to fight you 1000 times and lose every single time, that would probably boost your ego and lower that player's. That player would probably get ridiculed left and right on Channel 100. If that player had slightly slower motor reflexes than you and didn't practice much, that player would almost certainly lose against you every single time, no matter how many times that player encountered you. What would be the point of playing against you? That would be no different than trying to elude Aerna Seekers in a Behemoth in an ion storm.
Actually, in a way, it would be worse: With Aerna Seekers, at least they don't evolve and are predictable, so with enough practice, even with reflexes slightly slower than theirs, it might be possible to come up with a way to elude them; but with you, since you are organic, you would evolve with each battle, so that it would be virtually impossible for a player with significantly slower (even if only slightly slower) reflexes ever to win against you in an otherwise even situation.
With players, there is such an element called "aptitude"; some players are born as fighters, and some just aren't. In a series of even situations, it is statistically almost impossible for a player with low aptitude (call this player a "sheep") ever to win against a player with much higher aptitude (call this player a "wolf").
With NPC's, aptitude doesn't come into play, because no matter how intricate the AI, at some point, they can be predicted, and eventually defeated; with players, wolves will both out-fight and out-evolve sheep, so that for sheep simply to try to out-predict wolves will not work, because the wolves will almost always out-predict the sheep.
The result? Given otherwise even conditions, the sheep must either practice even harder than the wolves, or give up winning. If the sheep are too busy with real life and don't have enough time to out-practice the wolves, they must either accept defeat every time, or leave.
Frankly, I don't see the fun in this for the sheep. They either get defeated (call this result "eaten") every time by the wolves, or they run. It'd be nice if there were some safe area of the woods (the "universe" in VO terms) where the sheep could team up with other sheep in looking for rare kinds of grass (items dropped by Queen Hives and Leviathans in VO terms). But then again, the shepherds ("developers" in VO terms) don't make the fences ("penalties for nonconsensual PvP combat") high enough to keep out the wolves near the areas with the tastiest grass ("best ores/dropped items"), do they?
[/rant]
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
Don't like skill-based combat? don't fight.
Don't like playing in a universe where people fight? leave vendetta...
seems the only two logical decisions to me...
Don't like playing in a universe where people fight? leave vendetta...
seems the only two logical decisions to me...
I always like to break out the sheep / wolves reference too.
Deku, I'm sorry you don't like the direction the Devs are taking. Many of the things you dislike about the basic nature of combat and PvP in VO are the very things that I like most of all. In the end, one of us will probably be disappointed.
Mainly I was writing to say that I'm 38 years old, have a wireless mouse, and I think I put up a pretty good fight when I want to!
Deku, I'm sorry you don't like the direction the Devs are taking. Many of the things you dislike about the basic nature of combat and PvP in VO are the very things that I like most of all. In the end, one of us will probably be disappointed.
Mainly I was writing to say that I'm 38 years old, have a wireless mouse, and I think I put up a pretty good fight when I want to!
> What I don't like about PvP is that it creates an unfriendly atmosphere for
> players who prefer cooperation to competition.
This is only true when a significant majority of the "wolves" only prefer competition. Which isn't necessarily the case. There are several players in VO who are very good at combat, and are very willing to play cooperatively. Get a couple of "wolves" and domesticate them into "sheep dogs" and your flock of "sheep" won't be "eaten" nearly as often.
Also, I don't really agree with "For example, if a player were to fight you 1000 times and lose every single time, that would probably boost your ego and lower that player's." This is something I've mentioned a number of times: it is not necessary to win to enjoy a game. I actually enjoyed CtC the most back just after lauch when Serco where dominating it. I was losing, but it was a ton of fun. If I fight Martin (current #1 duel score) 10 times, and I lose 10 times, I'd probably have had more fun in those 10 fights than if I fought who? me? (current lowest scoring duelist) 10 times and won 10 times. My ego doesn't go down much when I lose to Martin, I usually expect to lose when I fight him. And my ego doesn't go up much for beating someone I expect to beat.
> players who prefer cooperation to competition.
This is only true when a significant majority of the "wolves" only prefer competition. Which isn't necessarily the case. There are several players in VO who are very good at combat, and are very willing to play cooperatively. Get a couple of "wolves" and domesticate them into "sheep dogs" and your flock of "sheep" won't be "eaten" nearly as often.
Also, I don't really agree with "For example, if a player were to fight you 1000 times and lose every single time, that would probably boost your ego and lower that player's." This is something I've mentioned a number of times: it is not necessary to win to enjoy a game. I actually enjoyed CtC the most back just after lauch when Serco where dominating it. I was losing, but it was a ton of fun. If I fight Martin (current #1 duel score) 10 times, and I lose 10 times, I'd probably have had more fun in those 10 fights than if I fought who? me? (current lowest scoring duelist) 10 times and won 10 times. My ego doesn't go down much when I lose to Martin, I usually expect to lose when I fight him. And my ego doesn't go up much for beating someone I expect to beat.
I totally agree Beo, and the combat discussion that was rolling with regards to the Top Guns show much of the same, a lot of the top notch people don't really care *that* much about winning. in my experience, it's the mid-level wannabie Top Guns that care the most about "winning".
most of the top level people I know in this game are around their 30s, most of them don't win due to reaction abilities or amazing eye-hand coordination. they win because they:
a) practice a *huge* amount, most of their online time is spent fighting other *good* players.
b) adapt amazingly well to new situations, never fearing to try something.
c) don't let death be a loss, but a way of learning and moving on.
there is only so much a wolf can do anyway, good, sound strategic decisions made before you enter a sector can save your ship over and over again. also, a human might let you off with a small fee, or bits of your cargo, or even just ignore you if they're half asleep -- in a manner which is a lot more interesting to interact with than any AI. besides, worst case, pay a wolf to protect you.
the weird thing is that I've always considered myself a PvE person. all my mining and faction building should attest to some of that. I've never felt PvP itself be a reason for an unfriendly atmosphere, but it does let certain players loose to a greater extent. I think John once commented that running shouldn't be that difficult, but once you're commited to a fight, you shouldn't be able to escape at will. as far as people I trust comment on the situation today, that's pretty much the case. yes, you have become more vulnerable now, but giving up because something is harder isn't solving the problem. there are still lots of people who do get away in a moth and I still contest that this does *not* require anything special in the hand-eye department, nor in reaction times.
actually, the greatest issue with the jumping vulnerability is ping times. I'd be very happy to see all jumps take a flat time to enter a new system to compensate for this, nothing was worse than jumping clearly ahead of someone only to see them emerge with you on the other side.
most of the top level people I know in this game are around their 30s, most of them don't win due to reaction abilities or amazing eye-hand coordination. they win because they:
a) practice a *huge* amount, most of their online time is spent fighting other *good* players.
b) adapt amazingly well to new situations, never fearing to try something.
c) don't let death be a loss, but a way of learning and moving on.
there is only so much a wolf can do anyway, good, sound strategic decisions made before you enter a sector can save your ship over and over again. also, a human might let you off with a small fee, or bits of your cargo, or even just ignore you if they're half asleep -- in a manner which is a lot more interesting to interact with than any AI. besides, worst case, pay a wolf to protect you.
the weird thing is that I've always considered myself a PvE person. all my mining and faction building should attest to some of that. I've never felt PvP itself be a reason for an unfriendly atmosphere, but it does let certain players loose to a greater extent. I think John once commented that running shouldn't be that difficult, but once you're commited to a fight, you shouldn't be able to escape at will. as far as people I trust comment on the situation today, that's pretty much the case. yes, you have become more vulnerable now, but giving up because something is harder isn't solving the problem. there are still lots of people who do get away in a moth and I still contest that this does *not* require anything special in the hand-eye department, nor in reaction times.
actually, the greatest issue with the jumping vulnerability is ping times. I'd be very happy to see all jumps take a flat time to enter a new system to compensate for this, nothing was worse than jumping clearly ahead of someone only to see them emerge with you on the other side.
I don't see how trading in a safe enviroment is any fun. NPC's can make it more dangerous, but there'll always be ways to exploit them. Players change and learn, which makes them impossible to exploit...yada yada, basically just repeating what everyone else said.
If you want more tactics, hire a CDC member and tell them what to do.
If you want more tactics, hire a CDC member and tell them what to do.