Forums » Suggestions
Good-ish argument on the important topic: I hear a lot about this "diversity". Diversity of what? Ships that people want to pilot, or forcing players into restricted vessel choices? I would prefer that players be given the freedom to pilot whatever instead of encouraging faction switching whenever something is popular or better.
Stupid argument on unimportant topic: I think the Itani and the Serco pretty much have the same technology -- same armor, same engines, same weapons -- and thus the design and production choices are purely philosophical. I realize that technically there may be shields, cloaking devices, etc. which do not fit this, but what is in game at the moment is basically all the same.
Stupid argument on unimportant topic: I think the Itani and the Serco pretty much have the same technology -- same armor, same engines, same weapons -- and thus the design and production choices are purely philosophical. I realize that technically there may be shields, cloaking devices, etc. which do not fit this, but what is in game at the moment is basically all the same.
what is in game at this moment was never meant to be universal.
The game NEEDS differences between the races, variations, positives and negatives.
In D&D what you can and cant use, and what your character is more or less likely to be able to use is determined by the class and race... right now we really only have one choice as to character creation.
Adding diversity, specifically by making certain things EASILY accessable only to certain groups. Choices need concequences, without them, the choice is meaningless.
The game NEEDS differences between the races, variations, positives and negatives.
In D&D what you can and cant use, and what your character is more or less likely to be able to use is determined by the class and race... right now we really only have one choice as to character creation.
Adding diversity, specifically by making certain things EASILY accessable only to certain groups. Choices need concequences, without them, the choice is meaningless.
I HATE D&D's class system. I love that VO gives players the possibility of doing almost everything, more like GURPS. The choice is between what you spend your time on and work on. I agree that "Choices need concequences, without them, the choice is meaningless", but I disagree with what the consequences should be.
then what DO you think the concequences should be?
where do you add differences? How do you make one group stand out from the others in a game where the only truly defining characteristics are the ships and equipment?
Anyhow, I earlier posted that I had some new ideas on subfactions... Here they are. (keep in mind this is also drawing from the post i linked way up above)
Each nation and faction would consist of 3 parts; the 'named' faction, and military and commercial subfactions.
Different stations within the nation/faction would be affiliated with one, two, or all three parts, and have equipment from all the subfactions they are affiliated with.
Most stations would be affiliated with just the main, named faction, the majority of the ships and equipment availible in vendetta would be offered. However all stations of a faction/nation would be affiliated with the main faction, stations also associated with commercial and military subfactions would just add additional options for players with appropirate reputation with those subfactions.
Commercial subfactions would offer the best trading variants and mining equipment to members with good standing.
Military subfactions would offer a few specialized ships and weapons. certain military subfactions would be mutually exclusive with each other. Additionally any military subfaction that had a cap with an enemy would also have a (somewhat higher) cap with the main enemy faction.
For example, serco military might have a +100 cap with the itani military, and a +300 cap with the main Itani faction. The military just isnt going to let someone who's on good terms with THE ENEMY take one of its ships out for a spin. (logically it makes no sense, and illogic is bad for game immersion)
The various parts of each nation/faction would be linked as close allies, using the following guidelines; all percentages are in terms of the original change. E.G. if faction A goes up 100 points and subfaction A1 is affected 20%, A1 goes up by 20 points.
Things that affect the main faction result in an almost equal (80% maybe) change in the commercial subfaction, and negative changes in the main faction result in an 80% change in the military subfaction.
a change in the commercial faction would result in a 5% change to the main faction.
a negative change in the military subfaction would result in a 50% change to the main faction.
a positive change to the military subfaction would result in a 20% change to the main faction.
The military subfaction would only be raisable by completing military missions, which in turn would only come availible when you had +700 or better with the main faction.
This isn't quite as coherent as i would like, but its getting late.
where do you add differences? How do you make one group stand out from the others in a game where the only truly defining characteristics are the ships and equipment?
Anyhow, I earlier posted that I had some new ideas on subfactions... Here they are. (keep in mind this is also drawing from the post i linked way up above)
Each nation and faction would consist of 3 parts; the 'named' faction, and military and commercial subfactions.
Different stations within the nation/faction would be affiliated with one, two, or all three parts, and have equipment from all the subfactions they are affiliated with.
Most stations would be affiliated with just the main, named faction, the majority of the ships and equipment availible in vendetta would be offered. However all stations of a faction/nation would be affiliated with the main faction, stations also associated with commercial and military subfactions would just add additional options for players with appropirate reputation with those subfactions.
Commercial subfactions would offer the best trading variants and mining equipment to members with good standing.
Military subfactions would offer a few specialized ships and weapons. certain military subfactions would be mutually exclusive with each other. Additionally any military subfaction that had a cap with an enemy would also have a (somewhat higher) cap with the main enemy faction.
For example, serco military might have a +100 cap with the itani military, and a +300 cap with the main Itani faction. The military just isnt going to let someone who's on good terms with THE ENEMY take one of its ships out for a spin. (logically it makes no sense, and illogic is bad for game immersion)
The various parts of each nation/faction would be linked as close allies, using the following guidelines; all percentages are in terms of the original change. E.G. if faction A goes up 100 points and subfaction A1 is affected 20%, A1 goes up by 20 points.
Things that affect the main faction result in an almost equal (80% maybe) change in the commercial subfaction, and negative changes in the main faction result in an 80% change in the military subfaction.
a change in the commercial faction would result in a 5% change to the main faction.
a negative change in the military subfaction would result in a 50% change to the main faction.
a positive change to the military subfaction would result in a 20% change to the main faction.
The military subfaction would only be raisable by completing military missions, which in turn would only come availible when you had +700 or better with the main faction.
This isn't quite as coherent as i would like, but its getting late.
I like Spellcast's subfaction suggestions, but I'd like to add in the concept of membership of the subfactions. The key benefits and drawbacks of a subfaction would depend on you being a member of the subfaction. So a military subfaction isn't going to let you get their special ships unless you're a member of their faction, but if you're not in their faction you can get good standing with them, and with their opposing faction at the same time. The only real benefits you'd get would be that the factions wouldn't attack you, and would defend you when you're in their space. If you want the full benefits (access to ships, lower prices, special missions, etc.), then you need to be a member of the faction, which would limit you on how much standing you could get with the opposing faction.
I used this example in a previous thread discussing faction standing: in the USA's Civil War, Robert E. Lee was offered a position of command in both the Union and the Confederate Armies - but obviously he could only accept one. So it is possible that opposing factions respect the same person, but that person can only be a member of one of the opposing factions.
I used this example in a previous thread discussing faction standing: in the USA's Civil War, Robert E. Lee was offered a position of command in both the Union and the Confederate Armies - but obviously he could only accept one. So it is possible that opposing factions respect the same person, but that person can only be a member of one of the opposing factions.
thats what the main faction is for beo.
the main "named" faction runs the defbots and the like. The subfactions are just to limit access to a few specific ships and weapons
Also the civil war analogy to Robert E. Lee isnt quite appropriate here simply because until Lincoln was elected and the southern states secceded Lee and all the other southern leaders were officers in the US military. Up until the point of seccession they were the same side.
the main "named" faction runs the defbots and the like. The subfactions are just to limit access to a few specific ships and weapons
Also the civil war analogy to Robert E. Lee isnt quite appropriate here simply because until Lincoln was elected and the southern states secceded Lee and all the other southern leaders were officers in the US military. Up until the point of seccession they were the same side.
The main nation faction (Itani, Serco, UIT) doesn't quite cut it, IMO. There can very easily be subfaction within the same faction that oppose each other. The most obvious are the Order of Eo and the Order of Akan: both are Itani, but they have very different outlooks. I can't see either faction giving full access to everything to members of the other faction - but I can see some characters having good standing with both. I could come up with several more situations where going off nation membership wouldn't work as well as subfaction membership.
I don't see how the seccession effectively splitting one faction into two invalidates the example I was trying to make with Robert E. Lee: the point is that it's very possible for someone to be respected and well-liked by both sides of opposing factions. And just a quick note: Lincoln offered Lee command of the Union Army on 18 April, 1861; nearly 4 months after South Carolina seceded, more than 2 months after the Confederate States of America was formed, 6 days after the first shots of the war were fired, and the day after Virginia (Lee's home state) seceded, so Lee was still in "good standing" with the Union after the point of secession.
I don't see how the seccession effectively splitting one faction into two invalidates the example I was trying to make with Robert E. Lee: the point is that it's very possible for someone to be respected and well-liked by both sides of opposing factions. And just a quick note: Lincoln offered Lee command of the Union Army on 18 April, 1861; nearly 4 months after South Carolina seceded, more than 2 months after the Confederate States of America was formed, 6 days after the first shots of the war were fired, and the day after Virginia (Lee's home state) seceded, so Lee was still in "good standing" with the Union after the point of secession.
>>"The most obvious are the Order of Eo and the Order of Akan: both are Itani, but they have very different outlooks. I can't see either faction giving full access to everything to members of the other faction - but I can see some characters having good standing with both."<<
Wait, what would they deny access to? the Akanese denying warships to the Order of Eo would be redundant, and Eo withholding goods from the Akanese doesn't make sense...
Wait, what would they deny access to? the Akanese denying warships to the Order of Eo would be redundant, and Eo withholding goods from the Akanese doesn't make sense...
How would the Akanese denying warships to the Order of Eo be redundant? In fact, I don't really understand what you mean when you use "redundant" here, Cunjo. And what doesn't make sense about the Order of Eo withholding goods from the Order of Akan? They are (very clearly, in my mind) opposing factions. The goal of the Order of Akan (killing all the Serco) is abhorrent to the Order of Eo. So obviously the Order of Eo isn't going to assist the Order of Akan.
Spellcast, perhaps it is that I disagree on what should be considered a group. *Factions* should have different ships and equipment. However, I do not believe that characters should be forced to select groups that they are not with. Exclusive instead of inclusive groups promote clicks and negative elitism. Right now, groups are inclusive; only Serco can buy SCPs easily, but as an "Itani" I can choose to include myself in that group by working to increase my Serco faction standing. The consequences are in how I spend my time (botting up Serco FS while running from SFs) and in restrictions to the acceptable actions I may take later (e.g. no CtCing the Serco convoy). I have put quotes around "Itani" because that is only where my character started. I say "acceptable actions" because I do not want actions to be actually cut off, just have reversible in-game consequences. e.g. I should always be ABLE to shoot the Serco CtC convoy, but I should incur a HUGE (-1500?) faction standing loss for doing so, and/although I ought to still be able to get it back up again.
Would simply making the FS requirement for nation ships be ~+950 for anyone not originally of that nation fix this?
Adding subfactions sounds relatively difficult/time consuming without much benefit/added interest. It would be a lot easier if we already had a system for updating multiple FS at once for single actions. It does sound interesting, but I still disagree with "Mutually Exclusive" (thread topic) in general. Also, if it is totally enforced, then no one can play a spy.
I think I can see your Order of Eo/Order of Akan point, Beolach, but you have to remember that the Order of Akan does not have its members jump up and down and identify themselves.
Would simply making the FS requirement for nation ships be ~+950 for anyone not originally of that nation fix this?
Adding subfactions sounds relatively difficult/time consuming without much benefit/added interest. It would be a lot easier if we already had a system for updating multiple FS at once for single actions. It does sound interesting, but I still disagree with "Mutually Exclusive" (thread topic) in general. Also, if it is totally enforced, then no one can play a spy.
I think I can see your Order of Eo/Order of Akan point, Beolach, but you have to remember that the Order of Akan does not have its members jump up and down and identify themselves.
I am in favor of mutually exclusive just to give each nation at least partly a feel to it. Its just not that much fun to see that an itani, serco or neutral are in essence the same no matter the paths they chose. It does in no way reflect the growthpattern and the choices that have been made within the game and this is in essence a major part of any decent rpg.
And im sure that for spies there could be come sort of 'gizmo' (no not the furry ones) that you could attack to a ship to change your calldign and imitate something else or have another implimentation for it.
And im sure that for spies there could be come sort of 'gizmo' (no not the furry ones) that you could attack to a ship to change your calldign and imitate something else or have another implimentation for it.
Beolach, I consider the order of Akan to be a seperate faction, not an itani subfaction. I'm proposing the military subfaction as mainly a way to keep track of your standing with a specific military group, which offers special access to specific equipment.
Incidentally one thing i forgot to mention above is that ALL commercial subfactions would be linked. reflecting maybe 20% of any change in any other commercial subfaction. (a trader is a trader is a trader after all, your actions in the buisness world follow you everywhere)
Lostcommander:
the problem that there is no real concequence if you DO then decide to kill someone in serco space with the SCP after you INCLUDE yourself in the serco nation.
OOOOO WOW you loose some reputation which you can easily bot back. You can do this indefinitely with no long term concequences, only short term annoyances.
and lets be frank here, the nation you started with DOES have something to do with what you should and shouldn't be able to do, If the human societies in VO have done away with all racial prejudices then there would be no war between itani and serco. Since the backstory makes it clear that that isn't the case, quite obviously the VO universe isnt a utopian, judge everyone on his/her actions and merits, kind of place.
As far as the mutually exclusive is concerned, IMO you need to get real, To me it makes no logical sense that a pilot would have access to both Itani and Serco military grade equipment.
.period.
that would be like a pilot in WWII landing his hurricane in berlin, chatting with the local airbase commander because they knew each other before the war, and flying off in a ME-109.
The ability for such an action to occur might be all inclusive, but it does not make sense from the standpoint of game immersion.
IF I see someone in a prometheous, it should stand to reason that they are not completely trusted by the itani, after all, the serco trust them enough to sell them a top of the line military grade ship.
Additionally IMO the best military gear is far too easy to get as it is, and should require special, specific effort, having a military subfaction allows an easy way of tracking this.
I am also aware that the idea wouldn't be 'trivial' to implement, however in my opinion it would add a lot of benefit and interest, provide meaning to the choices we make, (which we dont have now) and quite frankly the fact that it would prevent a player from becoming a spy is hardly a reason to exclude it.
Do you have any idea how long a deep cover spy spends getting into place? a decade or more is probably a safe assumption. Vendetta-online honeslty doesnt offer the scope and structure for a 'spy' carreer path to be feasable.
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Off topic history discussion for Beolach
""And just a quick note: Lincoln offered Lee command of the Union Army on 18 April, 1861; nearly 4 months after South Carolina seceded, more than 2 months after the Confederate States of America was formed, 6 days after the first shots of the war were fired, and the day after Virginia (Lee's home state) seceded, so Lee was still in "good standing" with the Union after the point of secession.""
Lee also was still an officer in the US army at the time he was offered command, and word of the virginia seccession didn't reach him for 3 days following. at which point he tendered his resignation and went home.
Incidentally one thing i forgot to mention above is that ALL commercial subfactions would be linked. reflecting maybe 20% of any change in any other commercial subfaction. (a trader is a trader is a trader after all, your actions in the buisness world follow you everywhere)
Lostcommander:
the problem that there is no real concequence if you DO then decide to kill someone in serco space with the SCP after you INCLUDE yourself in the serco nation.
OOOOO WOW you loose some reputation which you can easily bot back. You can do this indefinitely with no long term concequences, only short term annoyances.
and lets be frank here, the nation you started with DOES have something to do with what you should and shouldn't be able to do, If the human societies in VO have done away with all racial prejudices then there would be no war between itani and serco. Since the backstory makes it clear that that isn't the case, quite obviously the VO universe isnt a utopian, judge everyone on his/her actions and merits, kind of place.
As far as the mutually exclusive is concerned, IMO you need to get real, To me it makes no logical sense that a pilot would have access to both Itani and Serco military grade equipment.
.period.
that would be like a pilot in WWII landing his hurricane in berlin, chatting with the local airbase commander because they knew each other before the war, and flying off in a ME-109.
The ability for such an action to occur might be all inclusive, but it does not make sense from the standpoint of game immersion.
IF I see someone in a prometheous, it should stand to reason that they are not completely trusted by the itani, after all, the serco trust them enough to sell them a top of the line military grade ship.
Additionally IMO the best military gear is far too easy to get as it is, and should require special, specific effort, having a military subfaction allows an easy way of tracking this.
I am also aware that the idea wouldn't be 'trivial' to implement, however in my opinion it would add a lot of benefit and interest, provide meaning to the choices we make, (which we dont have now) and quite frankly the fact that it would prevent a player from becoming a spy is hardly a reason to exclude it.
Do you have any idea how long a deep cover spy spends getting into place? a decade or more is probably a safe assumption. Vendetta-online honeslty doesnt offer the scope and structure for a 'spy' carreer path to be feasable.
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Off topic history discussion for Beolach
""And just a quick note: Lincoln offered Lee command of the Union Army on 18 April, 1861; nearly 4 months after South Carolina seceded, more than 2 months after the Confederate States of America was formed, 6 days after the first shots of the war were fired, and the day after Virginia (Lee's home state) seceded, so Lee was still in "good standing" with the Union after the point of secession.""
Lee also was still an officer in the US army at the time he was offered command, and word of the virginia seccession didn't reach him for 3 days following. at which point he tendered his resignation and went home.
Renegade ++RIP++, Itani, Serco, and Neutral are NOT basically the same based on the paths they choose -- they are basically the same based on how they begin (as 0/0/0/0/0 newbie characters).
Well, then can there simply be much worse consequences for acting traitorously (to any faction whom you previously had high standing with)?
I want to keep my trader turned Hive hunter. :)
Well, then can there simply be much worse consequences for acting traitorously (to any faction whom you previously had high standing with)?
I want to keep my trader turned Hive hunter. :)
lost commander, ay they are. If an itani chooses the path of the itani or a serco chooses it, there is practically no difference. Which defacto should not be.
And if I should have to denounce something it would be your point seeing as that an itani at level 0/0/0/0/0 starts out with a different factionstanding then a serco with the same levels. Which proves quite clearly that they are different from the beginning but only remotely so.
And I still think that being an itani or serco or uit shoul dhave a bigger influence on the world around you. As well in weaponaviailability / resourceavailability as in shipavailability and general feel to flying all their ships (serco : more armour, more firepower, slow like hell etc). Just something that makes you able to immerse yourselve with a side in stead of getting the result that it doesn't matter if you level a serco or an itani char since in the end they feel the same.
And if I should have to denounce something it would be your point seeing as that an itani at level 0/0/0/0/0 starts out with a different factionstanding then a serco with the same levels. Which proves quite clearly that they are different from the beginning but only remotely so.
And I still think that being an itani or serco or uit shoul dhave a bigger influence on the world around you. As well in weaponaviailability / resourceavailability as in shipavailability and general feel to flying all their ships (serco : more armour, more firepower, slow like hell etc). Just something that makes you able to immerse yourselve with a side in stead of getting the result that it doesn't matter if you level a serco or an itani char since in the end they feel the same.
I do not think the leveling should be the key factor, it should be faction standing. If I start as an Itani and be nice to everyone or start as a Serco and be nice to everyone, then the result SHOULD be that they feel the same, because it is the same character with a different background. The differences then arise from a Serco killing Itani v.s. a Serco killing Serco. I do realize that a Serco killing Serco can be almost exactly the same as an Itani killing Serco, which is why I support worse consequences for traitors.
I would like to see people able to include themselves in any group, but I can accept a setting where, once you exclude yourself from a group after being part of it, you may not return (at least without a LOT of hard work, like have to kill 2000 bots, 20 queens, and 2 levis to get from -999 to -599). Anyone who reaches -1000 KoS should NEVER be allowed to gain any standing back, period.
I would like to see people able to include themselves in any group, but I can accept a setting where, once you exclude yourself from a group after being part of it, you may not return (at least without a LOT of hard work, like have to kill 2000 bots, 20 queens, and 2 levis to get from -999 to -599). Anyone who reaches -1000 KoS should NEVER be allowed to gain any standing back, period.
but that is exactly the point, you can't be nice with everybody. You can try to be nice with everybody, but there will always be a faction that will not like you how much effort you do. Reason being, you are helping those twisted itani acquire a technological lead by supplying them with sufficient plasma cores. Because of that you really aren't our friend anymore. Or how would you consider if your best friend just starts to help out your worst enemy. I would at least think twice before I would share secret information with my former best friend (which is exactly what being PoS is all about).
Anyway, but even if you by some quirk coincidence are able to be nice to everybody. You will always have to work away the inherent differences (how people percieve you for your original race/nation "forgot the word :(")and that is just as pointless as it is in real life. You will always be considered as that itani or that serco, in stead of callinf that serco itani because he has kos with serco but pos with itani.
Besides faction standing is just as much a growthpattern of your character as level is and therefore they should both influence it. Besides I was actually prefering to give each nation a basic difference in available weapons/ships by making all the ships have some difference in flyingstyle (fly an itani warthog or a serco one and it is just as different as flying a warthog mk2 or an mk4 one). The only difficulty will be the balancing of all these differences, but im sure it will in the end at least make the game;more immersing then feel like if I am itani I am exactly the same as if im a serco...
Anyway, but even if you by some quirk coincidence are able to be nice to everybody. You will always have to work away the inherent differences (how people percieve you for your original race/nation "forgot the word :(")and that is just as pointless as it is in real life. You will always be considered as that itani or that serco, in stead of callinf that serco itani because he has kos with serco but pos with itani.
Besides faction standing is just as much a growthpattern of your character as level is and therefore they should both influence it. Besides I was actually prefering to give each nation a basic difference in available weapons/ships by making all the ships have some difference in flyingstyle (fly an itani warthog or a serco one and it is just as different as flying a warthog mk2 or an mk4 one). The only difficulty will be the balancing of all these differences, but im sure it will in the end at least make the game;more immersing then feel like if I am itani I am exactly the same as if im a serco...
I actually think that forcing people to make choices is a vital part of what makes an MMORPG.
A choice isn't worth anything if you can just turn around and switch when its convenient.
I mean, lets face it, we have 6 character slots, right now they're just used for alts/smokescreens. Maybe if people had to make choices, they could actually make consistent characters.
Also, lets consider that we have a game which is skillbased, even if someone makes a "wrong turn", what they learned can't be taken away from them, and they'll still have the same set of skills.
A choice isn't worth anything if you can just turn around and switch when its convenient.
I mean, lets face it, we have 6 character slots, right now they're just used for alts/smokescreens. Maybe if people had to make choices, they could actually make consistent characters.
Also, lets consider that we have a game which is skillbased, even if someone makes a "wrong turn", what they learned can't be taken away from them, and they'll still have the same set of skills.