I've been afraid to bring this up again, but now that the arolte/running issue is being resolved I thought I would check to see what people think of the current SCP.

I for one still think it needs to be toned down just a tiny bit more, but this may be just me. Maybe take just a little bit of thrust away from it.

It is possible that it's not the prom thats so damn good, it's just the flares that are still pretty amazing atm. Perhaps if the flare fix that Inc was talking about in an earlier news post were to come into play, the SCP would not seem to eat everything it faces.
Unleash your opinions!

/me hides

(Sorry to bring this up again but after giving the "balanced" SCP's plenty of time and fights to determine if they really were not uber anymore; myself and several other players still seem to think that they're just a tiny bit more manuverable than they should be. I still think the rest of the proms are fine, it's really just the SCP that seems to destroy everything when it has a decent pilot.)

I'm not overly fussed. At this stage I find the Sky Command, the MGC and the Tung Cent to be about equal.

I think the SCP is fine now. it can't get any less thrust (or spin torque!) without becoming a target and little else. at 535(k)N it's a good ship that requires a bit of skill to fly well. it's also not alone in having a certain setup that is hard to beat a good pilot using, tri-flares and even combo valks are good ships, chainfired aaps in a Rev C is a goodie, hogs have a place...

the SCP requires combat 9, it should be amoungst the better ships out there. and IMHO that's what it is these days, nothing more, nothing less.

if you're worried, fly it. test it. it *isn't* as good as people think, but the people you generally see using it use it *well*. and yes, flares are the main reason they're good. with 595(k)N and above, it could use AAPs and neuts well too, now it can't and relies on autoaim and proxy.

Can the Valks match up with the Proms?

yeah, they can. they require more skill to use well, but you can match a prom with a Valk.

It is most definately the flares. Once flares are nerfed down to nothing-ness then it will only have agt to rely on. I s'pose we'll see alot of dual guass setups but it'll suck much worse.

Nerf those dang flares.

It's not the flares ... at least for me. My problem is that it can get close enough to my vulture to hit it with AGT fire, but still strafe fast enough to dodge any neuts fired at it.

On the other hand I don't think a single vulture should be able to take down a prom. On the other hand I don't have a prom and I do have a vulture so I think maybe it should be nerfed more. Leave the flares alone though or the stupid 1 pixel wide cents will be uber again.

a 535(k)N SCP shouldn't hit a Vult with AGT to be honest. I've had it happen to me a few times, but it's always a case of me (ie, the vult pilot) asking for it. you need distance to control the Prom. at 150m your N2s (or AAPs) *are* hard to dodge in the current SCP if you place them well, and at 150m, the AGT is rather harmless.

the IBG / Rev Cs need an armor cut, apart from that, they're fine. they're fully possible to fight with a lots of layouts, the flares right now are very good, adjusting the ammo across the field on the flares would help balance that issue too.

but, the bottom line stands for me. the current SCP is okay. nerf it at all now and it'll be a floating target. the MkII already is unless it's flown *very* carefully.

Try this: fight a Prom (SCP or MkIII) with AGT + flares and the same with flares + anything-other-than-agt. Then you'll see if the Prom is still uber or if the agt is too easy a weapon.

Eh, I'll offer 1 mil to anyone that can beat Matriarch in a duel (without using an SCP themselves)

They're still awesome, and can dogfight just fine.

But I do think that its the flares that make it evil.

Well, the flares, and the fact that, with its armor, it can absorb far more of your opponent's flare sets.

I've got an alt that's pretty close to being able to get the SCP. I'm going get the last requirements & start playing with it to see what I think of it balance-wise.

Anyway, I do think that right now everything is close enough to being balanced that it doesn't deserve any of the devs' time to fiddle with. It's good enough for the time being, and there are many things nearing completion that I think are far more deserving of the devs' attention.

Shape, I can't beat you in a Rev C either, that doesn't make a big difference. :-) but you're very right about the armor being a clincher, you have to hit it at *least* at twice as often as the SCP. with pilots of decent skill (ie, not like Shape) I sunk 535(k)N SCPs regulary and I also *lost* SCPs when fighting when I got sloppy.

Sun, the fact that one ship is better with a specific layout doesn't make the ship uber. fit a megaposi and aaps on the SCP and it's a very different beast.

I guess my point was not clear. Imho that's the ability to mount such an easy weapon as agt on this fine ship that creates the issue. Even a very good pilot will have some work in a Prom without an agt; with it, he/she can smoke a cigar while bringing people down.

I don't agree, not anymore. the Prom requires some skill to use, but they're easy, yeah. thing is, we can't nerf the SCP any further without making *anything* but the flare + AGT completly pointless. but yeah, the SCP is still good, it's not better than a Valk IMHO, but it's *easier*.

the Valk has many layouts and a broad usage. the Valk is probably the best allround ship today, it can chase, it can dogfight, it can pack energy, it can pack flares, it does mostly everything. the SCP only does one thing well, hold its ground.

and, well, as it is the pinnacle of the Serco war machine, I find that acceptable.

I agree with what Sun Tzu is saying.

Also I have to say I take about 25%-40% off the arguments of people like Shape and Alamar cause they are playing in a different world than me, time goes slower for them I think.

What these beasts do in these players hands doesn't matter to me (so much) because some of you have kicked my donkey in a MkII Hornet. I'm more interested in average player vs. average player. People like me who have around 100 to 150 ping and mediocre reflexes. I'm pretty average and when I take my vult against average players in an SCP the AGT killx0rs me more often than not.

Terjekv said: a 535(k)N SCP shouldn't hit a Vult with AGT to be honest.

Well if you can't hit me with an AGT you're most certainly not going to hit me with flares (never do after all) or anything else mounted on it, so I think that argument is 6 of one or half dozen of another. Personal dodging style perhaps? It's not like I get hit constantly but it takes a LONG time to take a prom out with a vulture. You need to expose yourself many times to score hits.

The reason I wouldn't nerf the prom is this:

It is good against lights, none of the other heavies are very good against light ships IMHO. Also, I feel the prom is bad or average against heavies. I would rather fly a cent III (the trading one, I forget which cent is which) against a prom than vulturius.

Btw something simple could be done about the agt and that is increasing its energy consumption, forcing at least timely shooting. Then light fighters would have more windows to hit the Prom instead of having the constant worry of dodging both flares and gatling. As Hoax said, a light vs AGT-Prom fight can be a horribly long venture and it is usually the light fighter who gets tired first (if the Prom pilot does not stop it out of boredom).

Hoax, with equal pilots, the flare + AGT SCP will kick a Vult. no argument. personally, I think this is okay. as I said, the SCP is the pinnacle of the Serco war machine, but it's also a very limited use ship. even for CtC it's a hard one to use well now, and with newer, more distinct missions, I forsee the SCP will become a special purpose vessel. when it can't be used well for a mission, Sercos will have to fall down to SVG or maybe the MkII / MkIII if they're fast enough for the task. where as Itanis can still fly their Valks.

thing is, at 150m one can dodge AGT (I play with around 150 ping or so), the SCP will have a hard time dodging AAPs. prey on the inaccuracy and lower speed of the AGT. yeah, it's hard, and yeah, if you're about equal, you'll probably die lots, but again, that's okay for me. the SCP *is* a monster. it's supposed to be a monster. it's just not an uber monster anymore (IMHO).

and the Prom is *very good* (hm, okay, *good*, I'm not sure I agree with *very good*) against lights, but it's not uber. the IBG is a lot more annoying to down with a good pilot. the main reason the top players can win with the SCP so often is the 21K armor. these pilots don't fsck up very often, and 21K armor cuts you more slack then they need. heck, downing Shape in an MGC is hard work. so I very much agree, this isn't the yard stick to measure anything by.

over to the AGT itself... Sun, the best AGT idea I've seen is the suggestion to make it so it takes around 1s to *start* fireing, and that it continues a little bit *after* you stop fireing (cooling down or something). this'll make it harder to use without nerfing it into nomansland.

as for the dodging, against people like Martin, yeah, I worry. against medium level pilots like myself, eh, I don't really. especially if you're in a corvus vult, flares are pretty easy to get away from, and as I've said, the AGT isn't really scary. in SCP vs SCP duels, it's almost scary to see how many SCP pilots who manage to get hit with flares without coming close to hitting you.

I think it's fine, and a much-needed counter to the itani valkyrie.

>>"Hoax, with equal pilots, the flare + AGT SCP will kick a Vult. no argument."<<
I disagree here. For one, it's possible to make use of higher combat skills in a valk (tri-flare, try-Neut III, or combination of the two), and use it's maneuverability to thrash an SCP to death, no matter the loadout of the SCP. With an SCP, the pilot can only move so fast, so their combat ability depends completely on their ability to weild the more brute firepower effectively, and the inability of the valk pilot to dodge it.

I do, however agree in that the Prom is ver limited-use. While I like the prom, there are many things it just won't do for. It lacks the raw firepower of the hornet or rag, and is not agile enough for a fighter role. It's a very nice medium ship, but nice medium ships don't have many places in the VO universe.

As I said Cunjo, 1 mil if you can beat, or find a person to beat my scp with a valk.

but the assertion wasn't technically about valks, it was about vultures, the "base" ship.

I'll take that bet. Long as "Matriarch" doesn't mind the long fight, I'll take you on in an IDF. 1 million dollar bet.

Name the time and place.

Gavan