Forums » Suggestions
The NFZ violation bugs (both no standing loss, and as of this last patch no SF) are IMO what should be the biggest priority to fix. More in-depth improvements to the faction standing system, like in the thread Spellcast links to, should also happen very soontm, but aren't as high priority in my mind as fixing the bugs in the current system.
At this point, I'd say removing friendly-fire protection completely would probably be the best solution for #1. As an alternative way to protect newbies, I'd suggest making them invulnerable to other players (and also unable to damage other players) until they have completed the tutorial mission, and edit the tutorial mission to *strongly* emphasize that they can be damaged and killed by any other player, including other players of their own nation.
For #2, IMO it's not really a problem, the requirement of having 100% battery charge makes it so there's sufficient time between when they can warp. But I would be OK with it removing the invulnerability while warping.
For #3, I strongly think there should be some type of energy or fuel requirement, like ctishman suggested. That would make it significantly more costly to jump multiple empty sectors to lose pursuit, and would also encourage players to take the most direct route, which would make them more likely to encounter Ion Storms, which would be a very good thing. As it is now, pirates want to be able to take advantage of Ion Storms, but they can't because Ion Storms are incredibly easy to avoid, so pirates are unlikely to ever catch anyone in a storm. A energy/fuel requirement for in-system jumps would greatly improve this. However, I think the 10 minutes to recharge if you run out of fuel that ctishman suggested is much too long. I'd say one to three minutes would be better.
Regarding #5: would you consider removing all friendly-fire protection (as suggested in #1) to also solve the problem with L-mines targetting "friendly" ships? Also, it is technically possible to target mines, it's just so difficult as to be completely unfeasible in a combat situation. The only way to target them is to be very close (less than 100m outside of the L-mine's damage radius, IIRC), and cycle through local targets with {, }, [, or ]. IMO there should be a seperate command "RadarNextFrontWeapon" that would be similar to the current "RadarNextFront" and "RadarNextFrontEnemy" commands, but targets rockets, missiles, mines, and turrets.
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And here's another exploit I'd like to see fixed: low level players attacking high level players, and the high level players being unable to respond without taking an XP penalty. I know that this has been addressed to some extent with losing the XP penalty protection when a player participates in CtC or gets a few PKs, but I still see this as being a problem, especially in the BP mission and grey space (but also everywhere else). IMO the XP penalty should be removed completely. Inform new players that Vendetta Online has a strong emphasis on PvP, and while players who so desire can pursue non-PvP activities, they cannot ever count on being completely safe from other players.
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At this point, I'd say removing friendly-fire protection completely would probably be the best solution for #1. As an alternative way to protect newbies, I'd suggest making them invulnerable to other players (and also unable to damage other players) until they have completed the tutorial mission, and edit the tutorial mission to *strongly* emphasize that they can be damaged and killed by any other player, including other players of their own nation.
For #2, IMO it's not really a problem, the requirement of having 100% battery charge makes it so there's sufficient time between when they can warp. But I would be OK with it removing the invulnerability while warping.
For #3, I strongly think there should be some type of energy or fuel requirement, like ctishman suggested. That would make it significantly more costly to jump multiple empty sectors to lose pursuit, and would also encourage players to take the most direct route, which would make them more likely to encounter Ion Storms, which would be a very good thing. As it is now, pirates want to be able to take advantage of Ion Storms, but they can't because Ion Storms are incredibly easy to avoid, so pirates are unlikely to ever catch anyone in a storm. A energy/fuel requirement for in-system jumps would greatly improve this. However, I think the 10 minutes to recharge if you run out of fuel that ctishman suggested is much too long. I'd say one to three minutes would be better.
Regarding #5: would you consider removing all friendly-fire protection (as suggested in #1) to also solve the problem with L-mines targetting "friendly" ships? Also, it is technically possible to target mines, it's just so difficult as to be completely unfeasible in a combat situation. The only way to target them is to be very close (less than 100m outside of the L-mine's damage radius, IIRC), and cycle through local targets with {, }, [, or ]. IMO there should be a seperate command "RadarNextFrontWeapon" that would be similar to the current "RadarNextFront" and "RadarNextFrontEnemy" commands, but targets rockets, missiles, mines, and turrets.
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And here's another exploit I'd like to see fixed: low level players attacking high level players, and the high level players being unable to respond without taking an XP penalty. I know that this has been addressed to some extent with losing the XP penalty protection when a player participates in CtC or gets a few PKs, but I still see this as being a problem, especially in the BP mission and grey space (but also everywhere else). IMO the XP penalty should be removed completely. Inform new players that Vendetta Online has a strong emphasis on PvP, and while players who so desire can pursue non-PvP activities, they cannot ever count on being completely safe from other players.
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I agree with everything Beolach said (at the time of posting. Edits don't count :P
Yeah, 3 minutes sounds better. That's about how long it took to regen in the original EV, IIRC.
Yeah, 3 minutes sounds better. That's about how long it took to regen in the original EV, IIRC.
Another suggestion that might stop griefing is allowing players to fight back if they are being fired upon in the NFZ. So if some shoots at you first you can fire back at them without the strike force going after you.
Well for the NFZ problem why not just make the strike forces WAY stronger or give the stations themselfs weapons.
A possible solution to putting lmines at station exits is twofold:
1) Have the strike force attack anybody who puts mines in the NFZ
2) Make ships leaving a station invincible for say 5 seconds (also unable to fire weapons during said time to prevent abuse of the fix) that way people leaving stations have time to manevour around the mines.
The warping at low health problem is alot more trickey at a glance but there is one easy way to fix it. Make the warp distance 4500m. This would mean for sombody to attack you from outside it you would have to eaither be rather far from anything to do, or they would have to be an INSANE shot and the target would have to be almost stagnant.
As for problem number 8. Change the rules to be that once you are attacked by a player all gloves are off so there are no peneltys for fighting back as long as you remain in that sector you were attacked in. I see one way to exploit this but that I will email to the incarnate rather than report it here and let it be known to everbody as it has uses now.
EDIT: What adress should we email incarnate at?
A possible solution to putting lmines at station exits is twofold:
1) Have the strike force attack anybody who puts mines in the NFZ
2) Make ships leaving a station invincible for say 5 seconds (also unable to fire weapons during said time to prevent abuse of the fix) that way people leaving stations have time to manevour around the mines.
The warping at low health problem is alot more trickey at a glance but there is one easy way to fix it. Make the warp distance 4500m. This would mean for sombody to attack you from outside it you would have to eaither be rather far from anything to do, or they would have to be an INSANE shot and the target would have to be almost stagnant.
As for problem number 8. Change the rules to be that once you are attacked by a player all gloves are off so there are no peneltys for fighting back as long as you remain in that sector you were attacked in. I see one way to exploit this but that I will email to the incarnate rather than report it here and let it be known to everbody as it has uses now.
EDIT: What adress should we email incarnate at?
In what way should the strike forces be stronger? They already have stronger weapons than players, and their Vultures are better than than the Vultures players can get. Also: one of the things on the "coming soontm" list that I'm eager to see is capturable/destructible stations. If strike forces are too powerful, that would put a wrench into the gears of capturing or destroying an enemy station. It would be possible to have some stations with stronger strike forces than other stations, but I'd prefer that no station has a strike force that is much stronger than we have now.
Normally, the station guards and strike force will shoot down mines in the NFZ; the problem right now is a bug in the last patch broke this, so that they don't destroy the mines the way they're supposed to. When they are working properly, there usually isn't a problem with station mining, so once the bug is fixed I think we'll be fine.
For jumping/warping at low health, I've really never seen that as a problem in and of itself - I think it's obvious that players should have the option of trying to save their life. The problem I see, is that there should be rewards to staying & completing the fight, even at the risk of your life, but there aren't. I hope to see more PvP missions that will have mission goals that encourage staying in the fight as long as possible; that IMO is the best way to improve the "running" situation. I don't have a problem with increasing the distance required to jump, or giving jumping a delay, but IMO those by themselves are either not going to be effective enough, because players will just start running sooner, or else too effective, because it will make running impossible, which IMO would be a bad thing - like I said, I find it obvious that players should have the option of trying to save their life.
I do like the idea of having in-system jumps require energy/fuel, because I see that adding more interesting dynamics with deciding what route to plot, piracy, ion storms, and other aspects of gameplay, as well as (partially) addressing the issue of running being too easy.
Incarnate's address is john(at)guildsoftware(dot)com
Normally, the station guards and strike force will shoot down mines in the NFZ; the problem right now is a bug in the last patch broke this, so that they don't destroy the mines the way they're supposed to. When they are working properly, there usually isn't a problem with station mining, so once the bug is fixed I think we'll be fine.
For jumping/warping at low health, I've really never seen that as a problem in and of itself - I think it's obvious that players should have the option of trying to save their life. The problem I see, is that there should be rewards to staying & completing the fight, even at the risk of your life, but there aren't. I hope to see more PvP missions that will have mission goals that encourage staying in the fight as long as possible; that IMO is the best way to improve the "running" situation. I don't have a problem with increasing the distance required to jump, or giving jumping a delay, but IMO those by themselves are either not going to be effective enough, because players will just start running sooner, or else too effective, because it will make running impossible, which IMO would be a bad thing - like I said, I find it obvious that players should have the option of trying to save their life.
I do like the idea of having in-system jumps require energy/fuel, because I see that adding more interesting dynamics with deciding what route to plot, piracy, ion storms, and other aspects of gameplay, as well as (partially) addressing the issue of running being too easy.
Incarnate's address is john(at)guildsoftware(dot)com
I like the idea of fuel/energy for warping; that would also allow for the creation of different types of grav drives, some of which could also be awarded for special occasions like the ultra-charge battery. You'd keep moving forward, turbo would go offline and could not be restarted, and changing direction would not be permited (the ship automatically locks out manual controls in preparation for the jump); only by hitting a certain key (the activate key again, for example), could you abort the jump. This way, jumping out would only become dangerous if you had a pirate right on your tail, not if he's 1000m behind you; also, by locking out the manual controls you prevent a player from accidentally aborting a much-needed jump to safety.
Also, I'm in favor of removing friendly fire. Makes for easier "convertions to piracy" and adds another edge to mass combat. Faction penalties for attacking admired pilots in nation space should still remain, though.
As for the newbies, give them a "PvP immunity" tag? it makes them unable to be hurt by and to hurt other players. Have it phase out when they reach Combat 3, or when they themselves want it to turn off, giving them a warning first that once they strike it out, they can never regain it. This way, an immune newb can fire at and be fired on by another player without any damage either way, and after a time the protection fades so the player is forced onto the PvP universe that is Vendetta. The manual turn-off option is there for players who want to start PvPing right off the bat.
Also, I'm in favor of removing friendly fire. Makes for easier "convertions to piracy" and adds another edge to mass combat. Faction penalties for attacking admired pilots in nation space should still remain, though.
As for the newbies, give them a "PvP immunity" tag? it makes them unable to be hurt by and to hurt other players. Have it phase out when they reach Combat 3, or when they themselves want it to turn off, giving them a warning first that once they strike it out, they can never regain it. This way, an immune newb can fire at and be fired on by another player without any damage either way, and after a time the protection fades so the player is forced onto the PvP universe that is Vendetta. The manual turn-off option is there for players who want to start PvPing right off the bat.
I believe social forces are the best remedy for griefers. Both fuel and jump delays will have social consequences that make griefing harder.
Fuel -- I think it's a great idea for limiting light fighters' range. The perfect complement to this is an L-port refueling gun that sends some of your fuel to a target (range 100m), and a tanker ship variant with tons of fuel capacity but little cargo space. (Actually, I really liked the idea of a "medic" variant from another thread; that'd be a tremendously fun ship to fly, with a repair gun and a refueling gun.)
Fuel regen should be quite slow, so that getting help from tankers is really necessary if you want to do long cargo runs or strike missions far from base.
Regarding the warp/jump vulnerability -- this sounds to me like the system from WC: Privateer, which was fine. You could still be blown up while your jump was executing. A time delay while the jump engines spin up is a great idea. (This could be a tweakable stat for a fast-jumping scout ship variant that could fly ahead and report what's coming.)
Now, the reason why these changes have social consequences is that they make it far harder to operate without friends. And friends is a commodity griefers will always have in short supply.
// edit
P.S. I think a manual one-way switch for PvP is a good idea. People can "convert" when they're ready. Most missions and equipment should be unavailable until you switch, though.
Fuel -- I think it's a great idea for limiting light fighters' range. The perfect complement to this is an L-port refueling gun that sends some of your fuel to a target (range 100m), and a tanker ship variant with tons of fuel capacity but little cargo space. (Actually, I really liked the idea of a "medic" variant from another thread; that'd be a tremendously fun ship to fly, with a repair gun and a refueling gun.)
Fuel regen should be quite slow, so that getting help from tankers is really necessary if you want to do long cargo runs or strike missions far from base.
Regarding the warp/jump vulnerability -- this sounds to me like the system from WC: Privateer, which was fine. You could still be blown up while your jump was executing. A time delay while the jump engines spin up is a great idea. (This could be a tweakable stat for a fast-jumping scout ship variant that could fly ahead and report what's coming.)
Now, the reason why these changes have social consequences is that they make it far harder to operate without friends. And friends is a commodity griefers will always have in short supply.
// edit
P.S. I think a manual one-way switch for PvP is a good idea. People can "convert" when they're ready. Most missions and equipment should be unavailable until you switch, though.
1. Remove friendly fire protection.
Agreed
2. Fix wormhole hopping.
Disagree, this is not a bug, it's simply frustrating to players who feel they deserve the kill.
3. Prevent players from fighting outside 3k and warping away at
This is such a lame idea. Disagree!!!!!
4. Fix faction system.
Agreed.
5. LMines bug.
Arolte was dropping them in B8 yesterday and I was uneffected by them, in fact I sat in the middle of them, so same nation are NOT effected by them at all. Unless this was fixed yesterday.
6. NFZ bug.
Agreed
7. CTC escorts stick around after transport died.
Agreed
8. XP loss for killing noobs exploit.
Agreed
Agreed
2. Fix wormhole hopping.
Disagree, this is not a bug, it's simply frustrating to players who feel they deserve the kill.
3. Prevent players from fighting outside 3k and warping away at
This is such a lame idea. Disagree!!!!!
4. Fix faction system.
Agreed.
5. LMines bug.
Arolte was dropping them in B8 yesterday and I was uneffected by them, in fact I sat in the middle of them, so same nation are NOT effected by them at all. Unless this was fixed yesterday.
6. NFZ bug.
Agreed
7. CTC escorts stick around after transport died.
Agreed
8. XP loss for killing noobs exploit.
Agreed
Quick note, it seems the strike force are back to launching when there's a NFZ violation, so that's better now. Hurray for the devs!
john 2 and 3 are most definitely a problem. WH hopping has been a problem since alpha, its annoying, its agrivating and it takes advantage of the fact that you are inveunerable to damage as you enter/leave a wormhole. removing the inveunerability as you enter a wormhole should solve it with no significant ill effects.
as to 3 no-one wants to prevent fighting outside of 3k, we want to make it so that running is not a "get out of fight free" card. If you are in good health when you run, you shouldnt have much trouble surviving a short countdown timer ( 3 seconds or less) but i've always thought it was a bit silly that escaping was so simple.
as to 3 no-one wants to prevent fighting outside of 3k, we want to make it so that running is not a "get out of fight free" card. If you are in good health when you run, you shouldnt have much trouble surviving a short countdown timer ( 3 seconds or less) but i've always thought it was a bit silly that escaping was so simple.
""Right now I like the idea of lengthening the jump-out effect time. I need to redo this effect anyhow, and we could simply make it a longer effect, like the warp-out, and make you vulnerable while jumping. So, slowly moving for 3 seconds to jump out? Some such.""
well incarnate i'd go for a 3 second animation, (i think thats about the length at the WH right?) but some people think thats too long to be veunerable without being able to respond.
my suggestion would be to bring back the countdown timer for in system jumps.. let us test with that to see how much time makes for a good balance between escape for people in good health and death for those running last minute, then redesign the animation afterwards so that timing is correct.
its possible that 3 seconds really is far too long and escaping would then become impossible without a head start of over 1000 meters, even in a full health ship.
well incarnate i'd go for a 3 second animation, (i think thats about the length at the WH right?) but some people think thats too long to be veunerable without being able to respond.
my suggestion would be to bring back the countdown timer for in system jumps.. let us test with that to see how much time makes for a good balance between escape for people in good health and death for those running last minute, then redesign the animation afterwards so that timing is correct.
its possible that 3 seconds really is far too long and escaping would then become impossible without a head start of over 1000 meters, even in a full health ship.
I'd just like to note that there is in fact a "bug" with lightning mines around stations. I've witnessed and was affected by this when the Strike Forces were temporarily broken. Blackhole Goldclaw was station mining Sedina D-14 around the time, and once he got a player kill he naturally became KOS for Corvus. Up until this point everything was fine.
At first the mines didn't affect me since I was in his nation. But once he reached temporary KOS status in the no-fire zone, those l-mines started to zap my ship and he appeared red on my radar. And yet I couldn't fire back at him or destroy the mines. So it was one-way friendly fire. Seemed kind of funky and unfair to me, so I thought I'd mention that here.
At first the mines didn't affect me since I was in his nation. But once he reached temporary KOS status in the no-fire zone, those l-mines started to zap my ship and he appeared red on my radar. And yet I couldn't fire back at him or destroy the mines. So it was one-way friendly fire. Seemed kind of funky and unfair to me, so I thought I'd mention that here.
I dont' feel at all that the invulnerability is a cheat or a bug. In fact I'm glad it's there, your entering a wormhole, there's bound to be some sort of spacial effect from the wormhole that would effect being able to effectively be hit.
At the same time, if you want to add a delay to jumps fine, but not a complete stop. that's just rediculous. As has been suggested many times, give the battery more play and make it based on engery, no energy no jump and if your turboing away your not going to have a lot of energy, the time it would take to go into a strafing pattern to gather energy should be enough time for anyone to catch up and attack. Making a player come to a stop who is trying to escape death is just dumb, DUMB!!!! I don't care if you spent all f'ing day trying to get a ship to that piont, the game should not force that player to lie down and die.
At the same time, if you want to add a delay to jumps fine, but not a complete stop. that's just rediculous. As has been suggested many times, give the battery more play and make it based on engery, no energy no jump and if your turboing away your not going to have a lot of energy, the time it would take to go into a strafing pattern to gather energy should be enough time for anyone to catch up and attack. Making a player come to a stop who is trying to escape death is just dumb, DUMB!!!! I don't care if you spent all f'ing day trying to get a ship to that piont, the game should not force that player to lie down and die.
I would much rather see a timer like the /logoff one instated for the in-system jump, where you have to maintain a constant velocity (speed and direction) for a specified number of seconds without firing your weapons.
I would hate to see a set speed and direction as well, but a physical time delay is even worse. Simply having enough energy is all that should be needed to jump to a new sector. Same as the worm holes.
The main problem with having PVP off unless you turn it on up to combat level three is that a trader could easily just trade indefinitely without any chance of being destroyed, because you don't need combat licenses to be able to get a trade ship.
except that that makes running far to easy john, which is what this whole thread is about, and its what all the ruckus over the weekend was about, a player who was not engaging, just taking a few potshots then running away, using the fact that you CANNOT catch someone who does not remain to fight EVEN when they start the fight.
It's about adding a concequence to being in a fight, or to choosing to be in an area that IS DANGEROUS.
it wont hurt people inside nation space, strikeforces and reputation changes can make nation space safe enough that very few people will attempt anything there short of massive incursions. All it will mean is that people who CHOOSE to enter grey space, an area that is SUPPOSED to be dangerous will actually face some.. OMG DANGER.
Silentbob: i think we could have friendly fire until you reach a total level of 4, same as the XP penalty for killing new players. then they work together. no-one under a cumulative level of 4 can damage a player of thier own nation, or be damaged by them.
This would prevent the new players (who's first reaction to anything moving is likely to be HEY - SHOOT IT!!!) from getting killed or killing as they learn the ropes. They could still bot, and once they earn a total of 4 levels of license that protection goes away (with a great big warning to that effect)
It's about adding a concequence to being in a fight, or to choosing to be in an area that IS DANGEROUS.
it wont hurt people inside nation space, strikeforces and reputation changes can make nation space safe enough that very few people will attempt anything there short of massive incursions. All it will mean is that people who CHOOSE to enter grey space, an area that is SUPPOSED to be dangerous will actually face some.. OMG DANGER.
Silentbob: i think we could have friendly fire until you reach a total level of 4, same as the XP penalty for killing new players. then they work together. no-one under a cumulative level of 4 can damage a player of thier own nation, or be damaged by them.
This would prevent the new players (who's first reaction to anything moving is likely to be HEY - SHOOT IT!!!) from getting killed or killing as they learn the ropes. They could still bot, and once they earn a total of 4 levels of license that protection goes away (with a great big warning to that effect)
And what I'm saying Spellcast is that Running is not a problem, at all, if you want the kill go get it, otherwise shut up. Your more then capable of chasing after anyone that decides to run, if you can't get them too bad. There is nothing wrong with the game. As for spammers, that's another story, and I still don't think that restricting the jump system as is is the right step, perhaps, make all the missle void once the launcher is gone, if they don't already, that way it wouldn't matter if he launched the swarms and jumped. As for those who find that they are about to die but don't want to, they should have the choise to run if they so choose, and makeing an arbitrary amount of time to make an in-system jump is not logical, especially if all it takes is a full battery to make a wormhole jump. Danger is fine, but you should be able to get away from it if you want to as well, that is what running does.
john, stop telling people to shut up. this topic was started at the request of incarnate to discuss what the majority of people think are problems in the game that led to the events of the weekend.
you have made your opinion known, now YOU shut up and let the rest of the community get on with the discussion.
you have made your opinion known, now YOU shut up and let the rest of the community get on with the discussion.
well I feel that I need to continually voice my opinion since the rest of you are being childish about this whole issue. I've watched Arolte play for several weeks, even fought side by side with him on occasion and have never seen any of the things that you all are huffing and puffing about. It just seems to me that you all want a witch hunt and someone burned at a stake. These non-issues that you want to discuss are all a waste of dev time and so I will continue to voice my opinion till your eyes bleed if I see fit.