It's troublesome now. IMHO Guild should be busy fixing the game, not overseeing the playerbase.

Pidgeon: Good point about the automatic filing. Perhaps the option could be presented to the player at that point, and they could request a warning/vote.

The reason why I love this game SO much is the freedom that players are allowed. The reason why I no longer play any other MMORPGs is because I grew tired of all the whiners and complainers who can't learn to deal with people who try to play the "bad guy".

I truly love the idea of a game where combat is not limited anywhere or in any form except to allow newbies to learn the game before they need to become wary of hostile players.

Station guards and the faction standing system is perfectly balanced enough to allow those who do not wish to be PKed to have a huge advantage in defending themselves. If a player kills someone in their territory(monitored wormhole or station) multiple times then the faction standing system KOS there. The station guards also are a huge safety feature for miners, traders and RPers. Simply stay close to a station and have your fun.

Also to those RPers out there who wish to RP without a station or wormhole nearby, there are PLENTY of empty sectors in all systems in which you can meet with your fellows.
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Having the ability to kill anyone anywhere is the reason why I play this game please don't take that away. I hate strict rules and regulations that cater to whiners.

I think people are focusing too hard on the traditional sense of griefing, to essentially keep killing someone until they are forced to log.

Something very different has happened. Arolte realized that he did not HAVE to kill to cause this kind of disruption, and has pursued just the avenues that he needs to to prevent players engaging in gameplay, while never actually putting anything on the line.

Having guides on more often could fix some of these problems. I know the guides are all volunteers and can’t be there all the time, but just them being there would stop some people from exploiting certain features or blatantly breaking the rules. I had a problem a couple of days ago with a player. His actions were completely pissing me and other players off. As soon as a guide came online we complained and she asked that player to stop and he did. He did start right back up 10 min after she left, but at least he stopped while she was there.

It's true, we can't be on all the time. Another issue is that there can be disagreement between what a player thinks is against the rules and what I know the rules to be. Sometimes we gently ask people to knock something off even if it isn't necessarily against the rules.

No automated system to control a population is perfect, but of the ones suggested here and elsewhere CrippledPidgeon's make more sense, since it's abuse-proof. Still, it's rather worrying that we've come to this, over the actions of one griefer.

Anyone play Live on Xbox? the games allow you to rate a player after a game (good, bad, no rating). The votes themselves do nothing but accumulate, but when a certain number of bad ratings(unknown to the player base) is reached by a player, a red light "goes up" in Live HQ, a mod checks what the ratings were about (abuse, cheating, harassment, etc.) and then the player begins to be "watched" whenever he logs on. If his conduct is indeed what was reported, he's banned. If not, his "rap sheet" is cleared. This system is slow but abuse-free, and does work. Crippled Pidgeon's system is the closest to it, which is why I like it, but using Live's system you wouldn't need to submit logs. Just "flag" the guy as an abuser, enough flags make the devs/guide take notice, they investigate the reports and then take action according to what they see. The "flagged" guy doesn't even has to be informed he's been flagged.

That is a fairy sound idea. Lets list some pros/cons shall we?

- Pro - Unabusable. Players dont cause direct reprocussions.
- Con - Time consuming. Takes valuable time from devs and guides.
- Pro - Undetectable. Players wont know how many times theyve been flagged or if its enough to cause a stirr.
- Con - Its Slow. This is a very slow process. Could take a while to see any results.
- Pro - Effective. Despite the length of time it may take it is very effective at identifying potential trouble makers.

Ok ive listed the main ones. Im sure there are others. For the most part I feel its a good idea. The only potential problem is the time consuming part. Devs dont have enough time as it is. Not sure what to do about that for this solution though. Anyway theres my input for now.

-Seta Solenk

Here's the biggest con I see for that: it requires a large staff, something Guild doesn't have.

I don't see it requireing a large staff, it should be technically possible for Guides to look at this data and look into it and produce a recommendation or something for the devs. besides, I think it'll take less time than running around following 100+ post threads on the boards. ;-)

> when a certain number of bad ratings(unknown to the player base) is reached by a player, a red
> light "goes up" in Live HQ, a mod checks what the ratings were about (abuse, cheating, harassment,
> etc.) and then the player begins to be "watched" whenever he logs on. If his conduct is indeed what
> was reported, he's banned. If not, his "rap sheet" is cleared

Actively watching potentially abusive players was what I was referring to that would require a large staff (I would include Guides as "staff" here). Even if it was done by reviewing the game logs, rather than by actively watching the player's current activity, I still think it would take more man-hours than Guild Software & the Guides are able to supply right now.

Well it wont necessiarily require a large staff. Actually it could easily be an aditional task for the guides. All the guides will have to do is keep an eye on any flagged players. Like I said however that takes time. We wouldnt need any more people on the case than there currently are. It wouldnt be that hard keep tabs on the limited number of people that the system says "Hey! Watch this one!" When a guide logs on he can see who is currently flagged and keep an eye on those people. Now yes as the populace grows so will the challenge of keeping tabs on the also growing number of flagged players. However, if populace grows, so too does the guide base. Anyway flagged players dont stay flagged forever. Say they get flagged and go a week without incident then flag removed and no harm no foul. Obviously the more times youre flagged the longer it remains each time. Say guides do find a "bad apple" (see my other post lol) then acceptable actions can then be taken. Whats more, since a guide would have witnessed any problems, the actions can be more severe. Say one fsck-up with a guide watching and he gives you a warning explaining what youre doing and to stop. Also the player remains flagged until a guide removes it. Any recurring behavior could be punished accordingly. Not hard. Just a lengthy process. Yet something else for the guides to do lol.

-Seta Solenk

it would be pratical for guides to have a "fly with person"-ability, to see what the given person sees. it'd make it a lot easier to see what's up and how things are going.

OK heres the way I envision it. Simply put it is merely a flag system. Each account (not character) has the ability to mark someone they feel they have been harrased by. Each account can mark any number of players but can only do it once every 6hrs. this leads to being marked. Firstly you will never know if someone marks you. It is tallied by a computer. Once you get X amount of marks you become flagged to the Guides and Devs. You wont know if youre flagged either. However this will prompt the Guides to give a deeper look into the flagged player's doings. If the Guides find a flagged players behavior to be unacceptable then a warning will be issued. After said warning the flag will be removed. If the palyer is flagged a second time then a Guide will have to remove it manually. If the unacceptable action is repeated during this second flagging then appropriate actions will be taken by the Guides. If no fault is found upon the initial flagging and monitoring then the flag is removed in one weeks time. Recurring flags will last an additional week per flag. Again a flag is merely a prompt to the Guides when they log on to keep an eye out for certain characters. One important fact to be noted is that flags and marks are based on accounts and not characters. Therefore changing characters and doing the same thing doesnt save you. If an account get several repeated flags and no fault is found during reviews then Guides can then look and see who is doing the marking and aproach them as to their reasons.

Thats how i see it working. Maybe now that I think about it, it probably will take more than what we have now as far as man power but I still feel that of all the suggestions posted thus far that this one is by far the most trustable and is definately easier to do than some that have eben posted.

-Seta Solenk

The implementation of a spectator mode (for guides only) and a way of highlighting any text involving the flagged players in the server logs can make a huge step in saving time to review flagged players. Certain features can be made to dramatically reduce the amount of time it would take to review such cases. While some people think that it would require a lot of manpower, it actually doesn't.

Cases this severe do not happen on a daily basis. And hopefully by the time the game gets bigger, Guild Software will have more staff to deal with these problems in a growing population. In addition, perhaps such cases can be prioritized by the number of flags which have been tripped. So there can also be a priority rating on the severity of the issue at hand, in contrast to all the other complaints.

Anything that gives the playerbase direct control over the outcome of a players punishment is bad IMO, that should be left of the Guild Customer Service, IE any of the devs. NOT THE PLAYER BASE. We've already seen the mute command abused, I can garantee that the ban command would be too. It's sad really, that you all can't just get over this. Fight back, I've been watching what Arolte has been doing and I've seen nothing that would require such posting like what has been going on. This is why we have guides right?!, to settle disputes. This whole weekend has been a large witch hunt and a waste of time.

Er...let's not get back on THAT track again!

I'm all for having flags raised and logs captured for review, and would certainly spend time looking over such reports. This would be even better if it were possible to act, or at least review, from outside of the game. By day I'm behind a rather hefty firewall that does not allow me to reach the game or IRC. Attempting to circumvent this would be noted and acted upon. I agree that letting the community take direct action beyond muting without some sort of administrative approval is unwise. Hypothetically, a group could get together and use a direct-action system to harrass a player they didn't care for, either by using their own numbers, or by convincing others to go along through misinformation or payment. People get upset enough when carefully instructed and monitored guides take direct action.

I do like CPs suggestion, but would specify that only the injured party would be able to make the complaint. This is to rule out simple misunderstanding.

oh yes, that's what I meant, sorry. Only the injured party would be able to file a complaint, and it wouldn't become a valid complaint until it had been approved by devs or guides, or whoever, and then, and only then does the offending player receive the warning.

I don't think this would be the right solution, since it could be as easily subject to abuse as the /vote mute command, with even harsher consequences.

Particularly when different types of gameplay are implemented... say player A has to defend a certain base from player B who is on offense... player B comes in, gets killed 5 times in a row, then goes to his guild and gets 30 guild-mates to /vote ban player A...

Perhaps a "Karma" system with no immediate consequences but some social stigma attached:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11022

or tying in the faction system with individual players:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/8746

of course... any sort of implemented voting system would be subject to exploitation... Players Will Find A Way. I think the real solution here is to fix the NFZ standing bug, and perhaps beef up the station's defenses in some locations (turrets? ;D)

Yes I agree we can't have any player vote based decisions, it appears that system is too flawed. I like the account flag idea, as long as a guide or dev makes the final decision I think we can all live by it.

What I would like to see though is a clear definition of what exactly the offense is.

If a group of pirates are hanging out at a specific wormhole, is it griefing to kill someone who comes through that wormhole multiple times?

Is it griefing to kill people in Sedina B8 who are just passing through trying to trade?

I think the only way to deter the behavior is for everyone to know exactly what we're trying to deter.

If we have flags for every general complaint, the guides wont be able to get through them all.

Cam, the problem isn't so much what the definition of the offense is. The problem right now is that the game lets you get away with things which most players consider undesirable and unjustified. Ultimately the game's design will determine what those offenses are, through penalty systems such as bounties and NPC defenses. I don't think we'll ever see a list of rules on how players should behave (strictly speaking outside of the Rules of Conduct), because that's something that the game's design should already be hinting us on. But because it's not complete there's a lot of confusion and frustration.