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> I can easily outrun and jump in front of a Moth if we were to start close to one.
Some ships can keep up with a Moth, no problem. The problem is, as soon as they start using energy weapons, wave goodbye to the Moth, there's no way you can keep up anymore. If they're using rockets, they *might* be able to destory the Moth, but the problem here is that it pretty much has to be done in a single sector, because as soon as the moth gets to jump range, it can jump empty sectors, and good luck finding it again. And with the armor the Moth has, it takes too long to do enough damage to kill it in a single sector, baring unusual circumstances. And if the Moth has mines, forget it.
Some ships can keep up with a Moth, no problem. The problem is, as soon as they start using energy weapons, wave goodbye to the Moth, there's no way you can keep up anymore. If they're using rockets, they *might* be able to destory the Moth, but the problem here is that it pretty much has to be done in a single sector, because as soon as the moth gets to jump range, it can jump empty sectors, and good luck finding it again. And with the armor the Moth has, it takes too long to do enough damage to kill it in a single sector, baring unusual circumstances. And if the Moth has mines, forget it.
I might take you up on that offer, Spellcast. I've been thinking about renewing my subscription on midnight. And you say any config, eh? Your moth won't be carrying any weapons, will it? And if I win what do I get? A big fat stfu for everyone who ever doubted me?
=)
=)
2. In regards to the differences between the FC and Heavy batteries, I wasn't speaking of boosting time. I was talking about the amount of shots you can fire off before running out of juice. It's nearly impossible to kill a Moth with an FC battery if you intend on using energy weapons. Dump 'em and use heavy batteries. With a high damage/sec loadout you can bring a Moth's armor down really quickly. That might mean sacrificing the use of light fighters too. Sorry, not everything can be killed with a light fighter. You'll need to accept that sooner or later.
Ok, you need to go back and either re-read what I said about batteries, or just leave it alone, cuz you're not getting it.
So once more I will try and make it clear.
Take a heavy battery. Put it on your moth killing hornet. Add four TPG sparrows, which have the absolute best damage/energy of all the small weapon ports. Out of a full heavy battery, and if you managed to land every single shot, you would take the Moth down to 17,168 hull. Thats still a hell of a lot of armour left, and guess what? Said Moth is about to jump to an empty sector. Now you're stuck with a battery that can only charge at a rate of 45/second. Its now going to take you another 8 seconds of continuous stream (but now you'll only be able to fire one at a time, two every 5 seconds or so). Don't waste those shots! Better hope that moth doesn't have any mines! Good luck!
3. As for my 44 PKs, I only played the game for a little over a month since I got back from the beta. Half of that time was spent botting, trading, and mining to level up. I've reset my character completely twice now during that time, due to nation switching. So no, I'm not going to have thousands of PKs like everyone else. Sorry to disappoint.
Not dissapointed at all. Somewhat relieved that I don't have to continue this silly srgument. If you've only been back for a little over a month, and you've spent half of that time botting, mining, trading, that leaves what?.. 15 days for pvp? And you say you actually gave up pirating? So less timethan that even?
Sorry if I'm sounding harsh, I don't mean this to come across as a personal attack, but I really feel that the Moth needs a nerfing, so I will continue to argue against anyone who says it doesn't.
Except you. I don't think you understand what I'm saying at all.
Well this is my first thread reply. It seems that pirating has always been a big topic. Pirates tend to be strictly PvP types, highly competitive and want to win by taking from others. It's the concept of taking that keeps the pirate playing. It's the greef of the other party loosing that is the frosting on his cake.
I personaly find this behavior less than tastefull. Its not that I am aginst pirating as a method of adding confict and dangerous elements to the game, it's these pro-pirate meta-arguments that I find must be viewed with extreem suspision at every instance.
Honestly do you pirates really expect to be able to win in even 1/100 encounters? And if you do why?
If you look at any natural food web the super preditors (that would be loins, tigers, eagles, crocidiles, sharks ect...) are in the extreem minority. When they are hunting it's the sick and lame that are targed first, even by the greatest hunters. When the population gets too large the super hunters starve while the prey population grows. In this arguement you are asking that the devs nerf the water buffolow, so the lion can solo it. Why should they? It seems to make perfect sence that you should have to feed off the scraps of the herd, not it's strongest and healthies specimins.
There is at least two places where my analogy fails to accurately represent the situation though. This is not the serengeti plains. Unlike the loins there are no limits to the pirate population. Anyone can be a pirate. The other is a pirates insaciable appitite. No matter how much you consume you will NOT be satisfied. It's not the gain that dirves the pirate, but the win. It is the greef caused that is the pirates true booty.
So where dose that leave you pirates? Well if the devs are smart, they shouldn't leave you much at all. Unless your kills are very few and far between the trading comunity will abandon this game. Without traders there is no MMORPG, its just a space sim FPS. But without pirates there is no feeling of challange to be faced by traders. I personally prefer the greefing element to have some teeth. It makes defeeting them all the more satifying. But if a pirate should make a kill it should be very worth while, financing his operation for weeks or months.
If pirates make up any more than 1% of the overall poulation then something is wrong. Nobody likes pirates, not traders, not police, not armies, not government, not corperations, not even other pirates. Even in the heyday of high sea piracy, they were few and far between.
That being said, Vendetta has a much better option open to it. With the (cold) war between Serco and the Itani privateering could be a very good option. A mision could spawn for a cravan travelling from A-B at X time needing guarding, at the same time any privateers in systmes between A and B would be informed of the caravan when it enters the system. Destruction of the caravan and or escorts would be awarded with a % of the booty as well as giving the privateers an enemy to fight.
Without a creative solutions like my sugestion above Pirates are just going to have to deal with having the worst odds, or if the devs give in to your demands, then the game failing like so many others have.
I personaly find this behavior less than tastefull. Its not that I am aginst pirating as a method of adding confict and dangerous elements to the game, it's these pro-pirate meta-arguments that I find must be viewed with extreem suspision at every instance.
Honestly do you pirates really expect to be able to win in even 1/100 encounters? And if you do why?
If you look at any natural food web the super preditors (that would be loins, tigers, eagles, crocidiles, sharks ect...) are in the extreem minority. When they are hunting it's the sick and lame that are targed first, even by the greatest hunters. When the population gets too large the super hunters starve while the prey population grows. In this arguement you are asking that the devs nerf the water buffolow, so the lion can solo it. Why should they? It seems to make perfect sence that you should have to feed off the scraps of the herd, not it's strongest and healthies specimins.
There is at least two places where my analogy fails to accurately represent the situation though. This is not the serengeti plains. Unlike the loins there are no limits to the pirate population. Anyone can be a pirate. The other is a pirates insaciable appitite. No matter how much you consume you will NOT be satisfied. It's not the gain that dirves the pirate, but the win. It is the greef caused that is the pirates true booty.
So where dose that leave you pirates? Well if the devs are smart, they shouldn't leave you much at all. Unless your kills are very few and far between the trading comunity will abandon this game. Without traders there is no MMORPG, its just a space sim FPS. But without pirates there is no feeling of challange to be faced by traders. I personally prefer the greefing element to have some teeth. It makes defeeting them all the more satifying. But if a pirate should make a kill it should be very worth while, financing his operation for weeks or months.
If pirates make up any more than 1% of the overall poulation then something is wrong. Nobody likes pirates, not traders, not police, not armies, not government, not corperations, not even other pirates. Even in the heyday of high sea piracy, they were few and far between.
That being said, Vendetta has a much better option open to it. With the (cold) war between Serco and the Itani privateering could be a very good option. A mision could spawn for a cravan travelling from A-B at X time needing guarding, at the same time any privateers in systmes between A and B would be informed of the caravan when it enters the system. Destruction of the caravan and or escorts would be awarded with a % of the booty as well as giving the privateers an enemy to fight.
Without a creative solutions like my sugestion above Pirates are just going to have to deal with having the worst odds, or if the devs give in to your demands, then the game failing like so many others have.
> Except you. I don't think you understand what I'm saying at all.
The feeling's mutual.
I'm not saying nothing should be done about it. But I don't think the ship needs to be nerfed until we explore other options. And I'm talking about options which would change gameplay dramatically. But in a good way of course.
I've tried real hard to advocate the implementation of a follow command, whereby the target's navroute coordinates are automatically placed into yours if you're within a certain distance of them (rather than just seeing where they went). I sincerely hope they're considering adding this, because it would give PvP combat a much needed boost.
If or when the ability to follow other players is implemented, you'll see just how easy it'll be to catch up to a Moth within two or more sectors. Most profitable trade missions require you to traverse multiple systems, allowing you ample time to catch up to a Moth and take it down. I have a feeling that if you nerf it now and when the follow feature is implemented, Moths will get taken down left and right. Then people will complain about it being too slow and will want it back up again.
This is all based on the theory that some type of follow feature will be added. The assumption is that the player would be able to press a single key and follow the target instantly, rather than having the delay of hitting the navmap key, finding the coordinate, clicking it, and then hitting jump. That delay is what kills the ability to chase down any target in this game, fast or not. Therein lies the problem, not the ships themselves.
The feeling's mutual.
I'm not saying nothing should be done about it. But I don't think the ship needs to be nerfed until we explore other options. And I'm talking about options which would change gameplay dramatically. But in a good way of course.
I've tried real hard to advocate the implementation of a follow command, whereby the target's navroute coordinates are automatically placed into yours if you're within a certain distance of them (rather than just seeing where they went). I sincerely hope they're considering adding this, because it would give PvP combat a much needed boost.
If or when the ability to follow other players is implemented, you'll see just how easy it'll be to catch up to a Moth within two or more sectors. Most profitable trade missions require you to traverse multiple systems, allowing you ample time to catch up to a Moth and take it down. I have a feeling that if you nerf it now and when the follow feature is implemented, Moths will get taken down left and right. Then people will complain about it being too slow and will want it back up again.
This is all based on the theory that some type of follow feature will be added. The assumption is that the player would be able to press a single key and follow the target instantly, rather than having the delay of hitting the navmap key, finding the coordinate, clicking it, and then hitting jump. That delay is what kills the ability to chase down any target in this game, fast or not. Therein lies the problem, not the ships themselves.
Forlarren, i think the following thread will be of interest to you:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/1191?page=1
Perhaps it's not the best one on the subject, but you might come to realize what piracy is in the vendetta online universe.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/1191?page=1
Perhaps it's not the best one on the subject, but you might come to realize what piracy is in the vendetta online universe.
Arolte, for the sake of argument, let's say we have a follow command, and that doesn't help, how's that?
ask Miharu how to make it, and test it, and see how little it helps.
*sigh*
ask Miharu how to make it, and test it, and see how little it helps.
*sigh*
Forlarren:
While your arguments are well thought out I have a different view of the situation. pirating was meant to be a part of the game, the origianl concept of the new universe (the one we play in now) as the devs presented it to those of us in the testing community can be summarized something like this:
Each nation has an area that it patrols and protects. This area is mostly safe, peaceful non PvP oriented players will find plenty of PvE conent without a large risk from unwanted combat, however no area of the universe is ever totally "safe". Outside the areas controlled by the three nations is grey space, a region much like the old wild west, a lawless part of space where the potential profits are huge and the dangers even larger.
at present everywhere is about equally dangerous, with grey space being only slightly more dangerous than the areas controlled by the nations.
in response to this comment specifically
""Honestly do you pirates really expect to be able to win in even 1/100 encounters? And if you do why?""
Pirates on the high seas did win a fairly high percentage of thier encounters in areas that were not well policed. the reason for this is obvious.. the pirate ships were designed for combat, the merchant ships weren't. It was in area's where the trade ships could run to a safe port or draw the pirate to a patrol of warships that the pirates would be unsuccesful.
your analogy to predators and prey is not quite appropriate, asthat is a natural cycle, and one that reacts to instinct and not intellegence.
Arolte, I will have no weapons if we choose this little experement.. as to what you get if you win; what do i get if *I* win? or shall we just say its for bragging rights. either way you tell people they "just" need to adapt, put your money(as it were) where your mouth is and prove your point. i'll even finance the cost of your ships if you need some cash to buy combat vessels.
While your arguments are well thought out I have a different view of the situation. pirating was meant to be a part of the game, the origianl concept of the new universe (the one we play in now) as the devs presented it to those of us in the testing community can be summarized something like this:
Each nation has an area that it patrols and protects. This area is mostly safe, peaceful non PvP oriented players will find plenty of PvE conent without a large risk from unwanted combat, however no area of the universe is ever totally "safe". Outside the areas controlled by the three nations is grey space, a region much like the old wild west, a lawless part of space where the potential profits are huge and the dangers even larger.
at present everywhere is about equally dangerous, with grey space being only slightly more dangerous than the areas controlled by the nations.
in response to this comment specifically
""Honestly do you pirates really expect to be able to win in even 1/100 encounters? And if you do why?""
Pirates on the high seas did win a fairly high percentage of thier encounters in areas that were not well policed. the reason for this is obvious.. the pirate ships were designed for combat, the merchant ships weren't. It was in area's where the trade ships could run to a safe port or draw the pirate to a patrol of warships that the pirates would be unsuccesful.
your analogy to predators and prey is not quite appropriate, asthat is a natural cycle, and one that reacts to instinct and not intellegence.
Arolte, I will have no weapons if we choose this little experement.. as to what you get if you win; what do i get if *I* win? or shall we just say its for bragging rights. either way you tell people they "just" need to adapt, put your money(as it were) where your mouth is and prove your point. i'll even finance the cost of your ships if you need some cash to buy combat vessels.
I'm sorry but this game at the moment at least has almost no paralell to the high seas of the 15th to 18th centuries. Travel time accross the universe is practily instant. Comunitation is instant. It would be kind of cool if pirates came after my brand new newbie wraith if I was dumb enough to travel through pirate territory. But if/when I have the money for the "uber" trade ship I do feel I should be neigh to invinceable if all I am doing is blasting through grey territory as fast as possable.
Except the moth isn't really that uber. It takes a few hours to acquire it, is not unique, isn't really special at all. Now, if you were in your crafted trade cruiser, maybe I could see where you're coming from. But a Behemoth is by no means the pinnacle of trade vessels.
why should you have an uber trade ship? how would you react if pirates had an uber pirate ship so you could forget about ever getting away?
would you react?
thing is, the moth requires less levels than the "special" figthers by far, at 8 trade and 4 mining, or 5/2 at corvus, compare that to 9/8/8/1/0 for the top fighters. why should a lousy 12-level ship be better than a 24-level ship? by the logic of "when I can afford" and "when I have the levels to", the moth should be fodder.
would you react?
thing is, the moth requires less levels than the "special" figthers by far, at 8 trade and 4 mining, or 5/2 at corvus, compare that to 9/8/8/1/0 for the top fighters. why should a lousy 12-level ship be better than a 24-level ship? by the logic of "when I can afford" and "when I have the levels to", the moth should be fodder.
Also, having an "uber" ship, which is uncatchable, is ok, if its rare, the problem is... EVERYONE has them now. Trade never takes place outside of a moth in grey space.
All the other trade ships have completely disappeared, marauders, centaurs, they're just fighting ships now.
I would expect these to be the most common ships in dangerous areas (being the most maneuverable, and most capable of taking on an aggressor), not the BULK transport that can't turn.
The moth has simply emptied the trade lanes of diversity. And that's a bad thing.
All the other trade ships have completely disappeared, marauders, centaurs, they're just fighting ships now.
I would expect these to be the most common ships in dangerous areas (being the most maneuverable, and most capable of taking on an aggressor), not the BULK transport that can't turn.
The moth has simply emptied the trade lanes of diversity. And that's a bad thing.
Well thats just silly. An uber trade ship is cargo + pilot + engines. An efective pirate ship need high manuverabily, and weapons, and additional energy. All that costs mass, increased mass means less delta V (real world) or higher terminal velocity (Vendetta world). Its like the army's humvee going after an eighteen wheel mac truck. Sure with luck and the correct equipment the humvee could take out a mac (rockets, missles, or a machine gunner). For a very short while the humvee would also out acclerate the mac. But a mac truck hase a very very good chance at out running the humvee even after taking fire. Espically if the truck was a cheried out armored version specifically designed for dangerous terriorties.
Except the C-130 vs F-16 argument is much closer to VO.
A heavy battery firing a Mega Posi for the full 450 capacity will, if I got this right, drop a moth to 25 to 30% if every shot hits. Now what are you going to do while you wait for your battery to recharge and the moth blinks off into the distance.
Ok the F-16 has trouble crossing the pacific ocean, must be overhaulled nearly every mission, and is the uber military fighter. Now how many real life pirates can afford an F-16?
C-130 HAHAHAHAHahahahah hahaha *breath* hahah. C-130 is an aging pice of junk, nothing uber about it at all. In fact there is very little in the civilian or military markets that would be an analog to a space freighter. Though modern military jets would be rather accurate to future space superriority fighters in terms of loadout balance. The closest analogy would be F-16 vs some next gen Concord. Transport / passenger jet tech has suffered under noise polution laws (for good reason sonic booms are really loud) and make a lousy comparison.
C-130 HAHAHAHAHahahahah hahaha *breath* hahah. C-130 is an aging pice of junk, nothing uber about it at all. In fact there is very little in the civilian or military markets that would be an analog to a space freighter. Though modern military jets would be rather accurate to future space superriority fighters in terms of loadout balance. The closest analogy would be F-16 vs some next gen Concord. Transport / passenger jet tech has suffered under noise polution laws (for good reason sonic booms are really loud) and make a lousy comparison.
has anyone actualy thought about what the problem is with the moth?
i hear a lot of "i can't deal enough damage in time to kill it", and "It needs to be slower because my space superiority fighter can't stay with it longe enough to take it down" So everyone says lets make it slower?
I say the moth is exactly fast enoug a top speed of 190 is signifigantly slower than any other trade ship. The problem with the moth, and why you piarates can't deal enough damage, is that it has too much armor.
I will agree that the moth MAY need to be weakened, but nerfing a ship should not automaticly mean make it slower. If the moth needs to be nerfed reduce it's armor, not it's speed. That way the damage you can do to it will be enough to kill it. Making it slower will just make traders prefer the faster trade ships, and cause the extiction of the moth.
Now i don't remember who sayed it but somone comented that Arolte's ideas wouldn't work in game becaus ethey don't even work in theory.
Well, i though Arolte's ideas seamed plausable, and at least were probably woth trying once. So if you don't think they even work in theory than mayby Arolte's point about pirates persuing the wrong avanues is correct.
here is the thought process i went through just now trying to decide what ship would be the best to sugest as a possable pirat ship. My conclusions were Maud, and Hornet.
I've heard a lot of people say how a Valk can't do in a moth, but i've never heard anyone say anything about a merauder. a maud can infiniboost and has the same space for weapons ans a valk. if you fill those ports with rockets then you can get a prety good loadout. I know i've come very close to biting the dust against a rocket valk so why not a maud. but maybe the maud still doesn't have enough punch, so what infiniboost ship is there with 4 S ports, oh i know the Hornet, if a 3 rocket valk can get a moth to 30% (and that has hapened to me before, when the pirat had to intercept me in the middel of the secter) than a quad rocket Hornet should be able to do much better.
now admitedly this is assuming an unarmed moth, so maybe if the moth is to be nerfed, it should loose it's weapon ports. But i still think that from what i've seen most of the posts that say the moth is uncatchable are still trying to use energy weapons to do the work of rockets.
i hear a lot of "i can't deal enough damage in time to kill it", and "It needs to be slower because my space superiority fighter can't stay with it longe enough to take it down" So everyone says lets make it slower?
I say the moth is exactly fast enoug a top speed of 190 is signifigantly slower than any other trade ship. The problem with the moth, and why you piarates can't deal enough damage, is that it has too much armor.
I will agree that the moth MAY need to be weakened, but nerfing a ship should not automaticly mean make it slower. If the moth needs to be nerfed reduce it's armor, not it's speed. That way the damage you can do to it will be enough to kill it. Making it slower will just make traders prefer the faster trade ships, and cause the extiction of the moth.
Now i don't remember who sayed it but somone comented that Arolte's ideas wouldn't work in game becaus ethey don't even work in theory.
Well, i though Arolte's ideas seamed plausable, and at least were probably woth trying once. So if you don't think they even work in theory than mayby Arolte's point about pirates persuing the wrong avanues is correct.
here is the thought process i went through just now trying to decide what ship would be the best to sugest as a possable pirat ship. My conclusions were Maud, and Hornet.
I've heard a lot of people say how a Valk can't do in a moth, but i've never heard anyone say anything about a merauder. a maud can infiniboost and has the same space for weapons ans a valk. if you fill those ports with rockets then you can get a prety good loadout. I know i've come very close to biting the dust against a rocket valk so why not a maud. but maybe the maud still doesn't have enough punch, so what infiniboost ship is there with 4 S ports, oh i know the Hornet, if a 3 rocket valk can get a moth to 30% (and that has hapened to me before, when the pirat had to intercept me in the middel of the secter) than a quad rocket Hornet should be able to do much better.
now admitedly this is assuming an unarmed moth, so maybe if the moth is to be nerfed, it should loose it's weapon ports. But i still think that from what i've seen most of the posts that say the moth is uncatchable are still trying to use energy weapons to do the work of rockets.
Here's why I'd rather slow the Moth down, rather than dropping its armor: it promotes teamwork. If a Moth has high armor, but is too slow to outrun any pirates, then it needs escorts, and the escorts will have enough time, because of the high armor, to defend the Moth. On the other hand, if the Moth has low armor, but stays how fast it is now, then pirates would probably be able to destroy it, whether it had any escort or not, because they could burn through its armor quickly.
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Oh, and I'll say it: a Marauder is no better at catching a Moth than anything else. The Marauder only has a turbo speed of 200m/s, just 10m/s more than the Moth, and the Marauder has crappy acceleration. Unless they start out right next to each other, the Maud isn't going to get close to the Moth.
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Oh, and I'll say it: a Marauder is no better at catching a Moth than anything else. The Marauder only has a turbo speed of 200m/s, just 10m/s more than the Moth, and the Marauder has crappy acceleration. Unless they start out right next to each other, the Maud isn't going to get close to the Moth.
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Subscription renewed. I guess I'll see ya sometime around Monday then, Spellcast? Let me know when it's most convenient. I'll gladly put your Moths out of commission.
we tested this now, 6 players used two systems to take a playful Solra down. Arolte got the kill as Solra did everything from swarmram people in roided sectors, running through storms (I think an Arklan did a fifth of our work for us or so), dock and let us regroup and pretty much everything you can think of.
I ran from Sedina to Jallik with five people on me from B8, announcing my entry, and ended up at 51% in Jallik. and yes I was carrying 120 cus of cargo.
I outran all non-infiboost-ships already in Odia, by the time I was in Pelatus, only Vomit managed to cling on for dear life in a Vult MkI (infi@210). I almost killed him though, and let him dish the last 20% of my damage in Edras as I was trying to proxy mine his ship. apart from that, I took almost all the damage in B8 by being railed by Solra, who after taking me to 80% (I forgot to load the navroute, that was nice) promptly left the running, literally speaking. I also lost around 10% from others in B8. I didn't take damage in Odia, Bractus or Pelatus.
I ran from Sedina to Jallik with five people on me from B8, announcing my entry, and ended up at 51% in Jallik. and yes I was carrying 120 cus of cargo.
I outran all non-infiboost-ships already in Odia, by the time I was in Pelatus, only Vomit managed to cling on for dear life in a Vult MkI (infi@210). I almost killed him though, and let him dish the last 20% of my damage in Edras as I was trying to proxy mine his ship. apart from that, I took almost all the damage in B8 by being railed by Solra, who after taking me to 80% (I forgot to load the navroute, that was nice) promptly left the running, literally speaking. I also lost around 10% from others in B8. I didn't take damage in Odia, Bractus or Pelatus.