Forums » Suggestions
3cu Trade Widgets, The Economy, and Piracy
Yay! YAPRT (Yet Another Piracy Related Thread)!
Well, not all of it really applies to piracy. The first thing I'd suggest changing is the profit margins on 3cu trade goods. Currently, in all of my experience it's rarely if ever worthwhile to trade 3cu trade goods, because while *per widget* the profit is higher, *per cargo unit* is almost always lower than the 1cu trade goods. Occasionally, as when there's a station fire mentioned in the news, the 3cu trade goods do make a higher profit per cu than 1cu trade goods, but those emergency circumstances don't last very long. Which means a trader doesn't have very long to build up a stockpile before selling (which as we all know is the best way to reap in the rewards) - especially seeing as they can only carry 1/3 (rounded down) of the amount of widgets per trip they can with 1cu widgets. So, I think 3cu trade widgets should have a profit margin 4 or 5 times higher than the profit of 1cu trade widgets.
My second suggestion is also about profit margins, and does apply to piracy. What I'd like to see, is increasing both the price that players buy the more expensive trade goods, and also increasing the profit. For example, currently it's fairly easy to find a Luxury Good trade route with a profit around 1250/unit (buy around 800/unit, sell around 2050). What I'd like to see, would be increasing the profit margin to say 3000/unit, but also raising the cost to around 1500/unit (so it would sell for around 4500/unit).
The reason I'm suggesting this, is because it would make piracy more profitable - currently, pirates don't make jack. One player recently gave the number 100000 credits per week. Now, IMO traders should make more money than pirates, but this is just way to big a difference.
Now, to combine the two suggestions: both suggestions could be accomplished by only changing the 3cu trade widgets. They are already usually the most expensive trade widgets, so when a pirate captures them, they are that much more profitable to the pirate. Increasing their profit margin would make it worthwhile for traders to carry them more often, which is (of course) necessary before pirates could capture them (and would also make them more profitable to pirates).
Well, not all of it really applies to piracy. The first thing I'd suggest changing is the profit margins on 3cu trade goods. Currently, in all of my experience it's rarely if ever worthwhile to trade 3cu trade goods, because while *per widget* the profit is higher, *per cargo unit* is almost always lower than the 1cu trade goods. Occasionally, as when there's a station fire mentioned in the news, the 3cu trade goods do make a higher profit per cu than 1cu trade goods, but those emergency circumstances don't last very long. Which means a trader doesn't have very long to build up a stockpile before selling (which as we all know is the best way to reap in the rewards) - especially seeing as they can only carry 1/3 (rounded down) of the amount of widgets per trip they can with 1cu widgets. So, I think 3cu trade widgets should have a profit margin 4 or 5 times higher than the profit of 1cu trade widgets.
My second suggestion is also about profit margins, and does apply to piracy. What I'd like to see, is increasing both the price that players buy the more expensive trade goods, and also increasing the profit. For example, currently it's fairly easy to find a Luxury Good trade route with a profit around 1250/unit (buy around 800/unit, sell around 2050). What I'd like to see, would be increasing the profit margin to say 3000/unit, but also raising the cost to around 1500/unit (so it would sell for around 4500/unit).
The reason I'm suggesting this, is because it would make piracy more profitable - currently, pirates don't make jack. One player recently gave the number 100000 credits per week. Now, IMO traders should make more money than pirates, but this is just way to big a difference.
Now, to combine the two suggestions: both suggestions could be accomplished by only changing the 3cu trade widgets. They are already usually the most expensive trade widgets, so when a pirate captures them, they are that much more profitable to the pirate. Increasing their profit margin would make it worthwhile for traders to carry them more often, which is (of course) necessary before pirates could capture them (and would also make them more profitable to pirates).
Piracy is extremely profitable. Right now.
Look at the bounty news. BORG/CLM/whatever killing themselves, BLAK killing themselves... Two hours of slaughtering trader bots in nation space and you are a millionaire.
Even without bounties, piracy is profitable if you include the destruction of NPCs. There are quite a few places where dozens of fully loaded NPC traders go every hour and if you ask them they will tell you if they carry crap or crates of more than 1000c/unit.
Those two sources of income are largely enough to finance hours and days of sport against real traders or anti-pirates.
Look at the bounty news. BORG/CLM/whatever killing themselves, BLAK killing themselves... Two hours of slaughtering trader bots in nation space and you are a millionaire.
Even without bounties, piracy is profitable if you include the destruction of NPCs. There are quite a few places where dozens of fully loaded NPC traders go every hour and if you ask them they will tell you if they carry crap or crates of more than 1000c/unit.
Those two sources of income are largely enough to finance hours and days of sport against real traders or anti-pirates.
Bounty Hunting does not equal Piracy.
I think you overestimate how profitable pirating NPC traders is. But even if pirating NPCs is plenty profitable, it's BORING. I'd like to see piracy being a viable way to both have fun, and make a profit. Right now a pirate can do one or the other, but not both. If the pirate goes after players, they'll have a fun chase, but they're more likely to lose money than make a profit. If they go after NPCs (either the traders or CtC NPCs), they can turn a profit, but it's not fun (and compared to trading, it's not much of a profit, either).
I think you overestimate how profitable pirating NPC traders is. But even if pirating NPCs is plenty profitable, it's BORING. I'd like to see piracy being a viable way to both have fun, and make a profit. Right now a pirate can do one or the other, but not both. If the pirate goes after players, they'll have a fun chase, but they're more likely to lose money than make a profit. If they go after NPCs (either the traders or CtC NPCs), they can turn a profit, but it's not fun (and compared to trading, it's not much of a profit, either).
"But even if pirating NPCs is plenty profitable, it's BORING"
OH, so you want piracy to not just be profitable, but exciting, too.
And perhaps pirates need to lose the mindset of what I like to call the "MY VALK WILL OWN YOUR MOTH!!!" complex. Um, no it won't. A couple of Corvus/Axia Mauds could take down a moth together and split the cargo. Why don't I see people using teamwork to kill traders?
OH, so you want piracy to not just be profitable, but exciting, too.
And perhaps pirates need to lose the mindset of what I like to call the "MY VALK WILL OWN YOUR MOTH!!!" complex. Um, no it won't. A couple of Corvus/Axia Mauds could take down a moth together and split the cargo. Why don't I see people using teamwork to kill traders?
SirCamps, look at Martin's post about group attempts at getting a fleeing Moth. There is no way a team of two Mauds of any type can catch a moth at present in normal circumstances.
I wold love to see high profit yield cargo. Back in my trading days I would have loved this and now I would still love it. I would like it to be some thing like drugs or illegal guns. You could only buy them in say odia but you could sell them in nation space. For around a 3000cr - 5000cr profit. The problem getting these things outta grey space in one piece.
Also later on as the game allows this could lead to smuggling and blockade running (i.e. nation B needs guns to fight nation A, how ever nation A has set up a blockade you must get past.) And getting past nation guards, maybe even bribing guards.
Just my $0.2.
Also later on as the game allows this could lead to smuggling and blockade running (i.e. nation B needs guns to fight nation A, how ever nation A has set up a blockade you must get past.) And getting past nation guards, maybe even bribing guards.
Just my $0.2.
I see this calls the devs to bring back the nanites that sold almost 10k in s14...
/me misses alpha
/me misses alpha
pirating NPCs can be profitable, but 1000c/cu is way over the top on average. yes, there are isolated cases that are good, but, well, I've spent a few hours in grey, and I have very nice factions all around, and I find maybe one in five that have worthwhile cargo, and they have maybe 33cus of that cargo.
this is profitable in the same sense that mining random asteroids is profitable. you'll make enough to survive, but after a few hours you won't care if you survive or not anyway. :-)
this is profitable in the same sense that mining random asteroids is profitable. you'll make enough to survive, but after a few hours you won't care if you survive or not anyway. :-)
still what is the difference with a player trading in an atlas? Or heck even a centaur... that is only +15 cargo...
what's the difference in fighting a player or a bot?
okay, I got frustrated, I'll elaborate a bit more as well:
1) players only carry valuable cargo. you don't see players move silicate ore around.
2) players are players, not AIs to fight.
if you're still asking why not just pirate AIs, I'd suggest making this a single-player game and just remove the PVP bit. why fight people at all? we have bots? heck, we have lots of different bots as well!
okay, I got frustrated, I'll elaborate a bit more as well:
1) players only carry valuable cargo. you don't see players move silicate ore around.
2) players are players, not AIs to fight.
if you're still asking why not just pirate AIs, I'd suggest making this a single-player game and just remove the PVP bit. why fight people at all? we have bots? heck, we have lots of different bots as well!
There are some good suggestions in this thread, and we'll take them under advisement. What prompts me to reply, though, is terjekv's post. He's currently quite right; players don't carry lower-value cargoes, and the AIs certainly don't fight as well as players. I just wanted to point out, though, that we're working hard, and these two things will change. Firstly, because we will make specific ores requisite for the building of things (eg. Capships), and with a more realistic economy, if no one mines silicate, it will *become* high-value. And on the second point, we don't intend to have predictable combat-AI forever; just until we've completed things that are higher on our list.
I'm well aware of your attempts to work on the AI, and that we'll get to use silicate (et al) for stuff in the future.
but, this isn't today. nor is it tomorrow. and no AI will _ever_ be a player. if it was, we wouldn't have MMORPGs. ;-)
as long as you can tell the two apart (players and AIs), players will hold higher value to deal with, no matter how you deal with them (fighting, trading, whatever).
I've seen AIs built via genetic algorithms in common lisp and given a lot of time to improve. they can be amazingly good at tasks, even pretty complex ones, as long as your reward / value / whatever you call it works well. achieving this though, is really really hard, and in a complex world like VO, I'd love to hear how you (the devs) wish to achive this. because, I'd like to see different AIs have different levels of skill (not just different "modes"). it'd be great if some traders used empty sectors, would wait in an empty sector for a while if they weren't tracked et al, while other traders have more than enough with finding out where they're going. :-)
the closest I've seen to this was a thing a friend of mine wrote which basically stored different snapshots of differently valued genetic developments which were called upon on spawn for the relevant use, this also ment that every unit in the game would develop until it died. very fun to deal with, even in a simple game.
but, this isn't today. nor is it tomorrow. and no AI will _ever_ be a player. if it was, we wouldn't have MMORPGs. ;-)
as long as you can tell the two apart (players and AIs), players will hold higher value to deal with, no matter how you deal with them (fighting, trading, whatever).
I've seen AIs built via genetic algorithms in common lisp and given a lot of time to improve. they can be amazingly good at tasks, even pretty complex ones, as long as your reward / value / whatever you call it works well. achieving this though, is really really hard, and in a complex world like VO, I'd love to hear how you (the devs) wish to achive this. because, I'd like to see different AIs have different levels of skill (not just different "modes"). it'd be great if some traders used empty sectors, would wait in an empty sector for a while if they weren't tracked et al, while other traders have more than enough with finding out where they're going. :-)
the closest I've seen to this was a thing a friend of mine wrote which basically stored different snapshots of differently valued genetic developments which were called upon on spawn for the relevant use, this also ment that every unit in the game would develop until it died. very fun to deal with, even in a simple game.
Introducing space crack! Sells for 50k! But because it's so radioactively potent, it somehow makes your ship glow! 0.o And it costs like 35k in grey to buy. I think big bulk cargo ships should carry low cost items (hence the need for bulk), and our current small trade ships (like that Atlas X) should be used for these sorta items. It's be interesting if a widget was like, 15cu. Certainly our littlest of fighters couldnt carry it, no matter how much it actually weighs. Consider some extreme numbers. The results might be interesting. It would definitely diverse things. Maybe that giant widget could take on the form of a bigger cargo box. Hey! Why are the 3cu widgets fit in the same box as a 1cu widget. Even better, why can 120 1cu widgets take up 120 boxes, but also take up only 1 box? Can it be done so that 1cu box will be small, and 120 1cu's go into a bigger box? And another thing....(/me continues to rant off topic)
terjekv:
I wasn't trying to say that our AI would ever be just like a player to fight against; like you say, that's why we made an MMO. And you're right about that (and the cargo-value stuff) not changing today or tommorow. I wasn't trying to quash the thread; indeed, its always valuable to hear from players, and we're always looking for easy short-term fixes to keep you happy while we work on the long-term stuff. I just wanted to point out to the more casual forum-reader that it will Soon(tm) be *more* fun to play with/against the NPCs, and that trading (and by extension pirating) will become a much more diverse (and hopefully more fun) activity than it is now.
I wasn't trying to say that our AI would ever be just like a player to fight against; like you say, that's why we made an MMO. And you're right about that (and the cargo-value stuff) not changing today or tommorow. I wasn't trying to quash the thread; indeed, its always valuable to hear from players, and we're always looking for easy short-term fixes to keep you happy while we work on the long-term stuff. I just wanted to point out to the more casual forum-reader that it will Soon(tm) be *more* fun to play with/against the NPCs, and that trading (and by extension pirating) will become a much more diverse (and hopefully more fun) activity than it is now.
heh, momerath42, I hope you didn't feel I was squashing your post either, I just wanted to point out that there is a difference between AIs and players as long as you can tell them apart. =)
I'm really looking forward to the next level of AI stuff in VO, and especially traders running in convoys and such things. oh yeah, and that HIVE stuff we've heard tidbits about. :-)
keep up the great work!
I'm really looking forward to the next level of AI stuff in VO, and especially traders running in convoys and such things. oh yeah, and that HIVE stuff we've heard tidbits about. :-)
keep up the great work!
Why must you all assume that pirating is a lucrative form of income. It's not, sure there have been pirates that have struck it big on a ship or two in the ancient past but for the most part pirates are small time theives, and the only reason that they get away with it is they are in the middle of the ocean or in our case, deep in space.
Sure there are things that can be done to make the pirating experience more fun and exciting. For instance, instituting a blackmarket like has already been mentioned several times, npc pirates that fly around trade lanes, even possibly making trips into monitored space (if high corvus faction, will not attack you, and could potentially work together like nation bots during ctc). More pirate oriented ship designs, like small carrior ships that can then launch fighters when close enough to take down trader ships. Several equipment and weapon designs added like gravety wells, cloaking devices, tractor beams, comm jammers, etc.
What I don't think we should do is simply increase the ammount that everything is worth. Also, The widget list needs to be a little bit more diverse, and also more unique to certain parts of space. That way you can create special widgets that COULD be made more expensive and worth pirating in the first place. Honestly, if you want to make money either trading or mining is your best bet.
Sure there are things that can be done to make the pirating experience more fun and exciting. For instance, instituting a blackmarket like has already been mentioned several times, npc pirates that fly around trade lanes, even possibly making trips into monitored space (if high corvus faction, will not attack you, and could potentially work together like nation bots during ctc). More pirate oriented ship designs, like small carrior ships that can then launch fighters when close enough to take down trader ships. Several equipment and weapon designs added like gravety wells, cloaking devices, tractor beams, comm jammers, etc.
What I don't think we should do is simply increase the ammount that everything is worth. Also, The widget list needs to be a little bit more diverse, and also more unique to certain parts of space. That way you can create special widgets that COULD be made more expensive and worth pirating in the first place. Honestly, if you want to make money either trading or mining is your best bet.
there is a difference between things being lucrative and things being a loss. noone wants pirating to be hugely profitable, but the possibility of actually running in the black would be nice.