Forums » Suggestions
Proposal: Linear, Instead of Exponential, Increase in Effort for Levelling Up
Recently, I became tired of botting to earn another Combat Piloting License level, and decided to start an alternate character. Almost immediately, I discovered that it was so much more fun in gaining experience with my new alternate character than with my original one.
After some thought, I discovered the reason. After about Combat Piloting License Level 8, the amount of effort required in proportion to the rewards achieved for each additional level rapidly decreases to the point where it is no longer any fun.
After additional consideration, I came up with a possible remedy.
The problem is not the sheer number of additional experience points required, but the exponential increase in effort required. Other RPG's that I have played in the past have also featured dramatic increases in the additional number of experience points required for each higher level, but that has usually been balanced by a similar increase in the points rewarded for fighting enemies at the higher level as well, so that the actual effort required for each further level has increased usually logarithmically or, at most, linearly. Further, they have usually featured rewards at every level or two of increased experience, all the way up to at least about level 60 or higher.
However, in VO, the increase in effort required is exponental, and there are simply no rewards after Combat Piloting License Level 9 and Trading and Commerce License Level 13.
IMHO, it would improve the PvE aspect of VO immensely if there were more advanced robot assault ships, Hive Queens, or combat piloting missions that also rewarded exponentially increasing Combat Piloting License experience points high enough to keep up with the increasing requirements per level, and if there were new rewards for every increased level or two, all the way up to about, say, level 60.
These rewards past Combat Piloting License Level 9 should primarily be PvE-focused, since most PvP-focused players seem preoccupied with fighting, and not with level-raising. Some ideas include the following:
* Shock Missiles (for temporarily paralyzing Hive Queens)
* Wave Motion Guns (as from the Japanese anime series "Space Cruiser Yamato") (with a charge time of 30 seconds and a speed slow enough to be outrun by most interceptor ships, but destructive enough to disintegrate a Hellman Overseer with a single shot)
* Random Teleporter (for teleporting yourself to a random quadrant after a 10-second delay)
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
After some thought, I discovered the reason. After about Combat Piloting License Level 8, the amount of effort required in proportion to the rewards achieved for each additional level rapidly decreases to the point where it is no longer any fun.
After additional consideration, I came up with a possible remedy.
The problem is not the sheer number of additional experience points required, but the exponential increase in effort required. Other RPG's that I have played in the past have also featured dramatic increases in the additional number of experience points required for each higher level, but that has usually been balanced by a similar increase in the points rewarded for fighting enemies at the higher level as well, so that the actual effort required for each further level has increased usually logarithmically or, at most, linearly. Further, they have usually featured rewards at every level or two of increased experience, all the way up to at least about level 60 or higher.
However, in VO, the increase in effort required is exponental, and there are simply no rewards after Combat Piloting License Level 9 and Trading and Commerce License Level 13.
IMHO, it would improve the PvE aspect of VO immensely if there were more advanced robot assault ships, Hive Queens, or combat piloting missions that also rewarded exponentially increasing Combat Piloting License experience points high enough to keep up with the increasing requirements per level, and if there were new rewards for every increased level or two, all the way up to about, say, level 60.
These rewards past Combat Piloting License Level 9 should primarily be PvE-focused, since most PvP-focused players seem preoccupied with fighting, and not with level-raising. Some ideas include the following:
* Shock Missiles (for temporarily paralyzing Hive Queens)
* Wave Motion Guns (as from the Japanese anime series "Space Cruiser Yamato") (with a charge time of 30 seconds and a speed slow enough to be outrun by most interceptor ships, but destructive enough to disintegrate a Hellman Overseer with a single shot)
* Random Teleporter (for teleporting yourself to a random quadrant after a 10-second delay)
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
*stamp of aproval for first part*
I managed to raise my own levels very quickly, simply by learning the system quickly and playing WAY too much for the first week, as well as following cap ships and picking off bots that it encountered in Ion storm. However, from what I have heard about crackbotting, it can very quickly raise levels. Now, as I understand it, this would have to be eliminated for your idea to be implemented, otherwise, people could kill mass amounts of bots, and get VERY high levels after only a few hours of gameplay. So, basically, remove the exploit, and your idea can (perhaps) be implemented.
As for the second part: I think that additional weaponry is needed, eventually, but for now, we're fine in that aspect. However, additional ships, if only for flavor are *badly* needed. I don't care if we just slap on existing stats to new ships, but we need some new ships. As for the weaponry you suggested, the first seems kind of like a "cheat gun" of some sort. It would have to be limited greatly, perhaps only giving it 2 shots, in missile form, each with a 50% chance of disabling a queen.
As for the second...mmm...that would make it too easy to ambush wormholes. Additional revising needed.
The third: I think my own "fast jump" (in this topic: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/1494?page=5#116467 ) idea is superior to this, because, again, it isn't supported by the backstory and gameplay rules.
~Seldon
I managed to raise my own levels very quickly, simply by learning the system quickly and playing WAY too much for the first week, as well as following cap ships and picking off bots that it encountered in Ion storm. However, from what I have heard about crackbotting, it can very quickly raise levels. Now, as I understand it, this would have to be eliminated for your idea to be implemented, otherwise, people could kill mass amounts of bots, and get VERY high levels after only a few hours of gameplay. So, basically, remove the exploit, and your idea can (perhaps) be implemented.
As for the second part: I think that additional weaponry is needed, eventually, but for now, we're fine in that aspect. However, additional ships, if only for flavor are *badly* needed. I don't care if we just slap on existing stats to new ships, but we need some new ships. As for the weaponry you suggested, the first seems kind of like a "cheat gun" of some sort. It would have to be limited greatly, perhaps only giving it 2 shots, in missile form, each with a 50% chance of disabling a queen.
As for the second...mmm...that would make it too easy to ambush wormholes. Additional revising needed.
The third: I think my own "fast jump" (in this topic: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/1494?page=5#116467 ) idea is superior to this, because, again, it isn't supported by the backstory and gameplay rules.
~Seldon
like, make level req for items exponential, make the xp system linear, and throw in other weapons in between the ones we have now and beyond as well?
We're making level reqs linear? Great! I suddenly have level 11,000!
Conventional RPGs are linear experience-wise for a reason... you are supposed to reach the highest levels by the end of the game. If everyone can be combat 9, suddenly it's not "cool" anymore.
-:sigma.SB
Conventional RPGs are linear experience-wise for a reason... you are supposed to reach the highest levels by the end of the game. If everyone can be combat 9, suddenly it's not "cool" anymore.
-:sigma.SB
no no no...Just make the tougher bots worth more combat XP so it's possible to have *similar* Light weapons and Combat Piloting licences. Adding a few more levels in between might not hurt either. However, as mentioned in other topics, the task of leveling can be very boring, since bots will never surprise you with anything new.
Requiring Player kills after a certain level are perhaps a better way to go, or perhaps letting PKs count for a number of bot kills as a substitute for botting.
Requiring Player kills after a certain level are perhaps a better way to go, or perhaps letting PKs count for a number of bot kills as a substitute for botting.
Re: Fnugget
> like, make level req for items exponential, make the xp system linear, and throw
> in other weapons in between the ones we have now and beyond as well?
Well, make the level increase requirement for items linear with a sufficiently high constant increase per level, but not exponential. Otherwise, yes.
For example, if, say, different grades of one item become available at levels 30, 60, and 90, and of another at, say, levels 10, 40, and 70, but the increase in required experience for each higher license level is linear, then earning enough experience to gain the items become challenging, but still achievable within a reasonable time frame.
Just add many types of items with at least three different versions of each item, depending on the license required.
Re: Solra Bizna
> If everyone can be combat 9, suddenly it's not "cool" anymore.
It would still be "cool" if Combat Piloting License Level 9 meant less. As is, it's the highest level in that category at which new combat ships become available, and that is the problem. Once you reach that level, you gain no more ships or items, no matter how much higher you go, and that is the real problem.
If players continued to earn useful ships/items every few levels all the way until level 99, then being level 9 would mean much less, and it would still be "cool" if everyone could be level 9. It's just that only the very dedicated could then be level 99, and then level 99 would actually mean something (so long as some über alles-item became available then).
The über-item should probably be some non-PvP item, in order to avoid upsetting the PvP skill balance. Personally, I would prefer some über anti-Hive Queen item, perhaps a Goliath Cannon that only worked against Hive Queens and unmanned Capital Ships, but caused no damage to anything with a player in it.
-- DekuDekuplex Orntier
> like, make level req for items exponential, make the xp system linear, and throw
> in other weapons in between the ones we have now and beyond as well?
Well, make the level increase requirement for items linear with a sufficiently high constant increase per level, but not exponential. Otherwise, yes.
For example, if, say, different grades of one item become available at levels 30, 60, and 90, and of another at, say, levels 10, 40, and 70, but the increase in required experience for each higher license level is linear, then earning enough experience to gain the items become challenging, but still achievable within a reasonable time frame.
Just add many types of items with at least three different versions of each item, depending on the license required.
Re: Solra Bizna
> If everyone can be combat 9, suddenly it's not "cool" anymore.
It would still be "cool" if Combat Piloting License Level 9 meant less. As is, it's the highest level in that category at which new combat ships become available, and that is the problem. Once you reach that level, you gain no more ships or items, no matter how much higher you go, and that is the real problem.
If players continued to earn useful ships/items every few levels all the way until level 99, then being level 9 would mean much less, and it would still be "cool" if everyone could be level 9. It's just that only the very dedicated could then be level 99, and then level 99 would actually mean something (so long as some über alles-item became available then).
The über-item should probably be some non-PvP item, in order to avoid upsetting the PvP skill balance. Personally, I would prefer some über anti-Hive Queen item, perhaps a Goliath Cannon that only worked against Hive Queens and unmanned Capital Ships, but caused no damage to anything with a player in it.
-- DekuDekuplex Orntier
I still don't understand why people can't understand that levelling stops at level 9/10/10/13/x (I don't know it for mining, and to lazy to check).
Why can't people think of those levels as the momentarilly capped maximumlevels (like level 20 for the game guildwars). But sure if you want 2 million levels lets just give you a licenceincrease after every botkill (thats lineair now isn't it).
Now back to some normal postingmethods, level 4 is the point of exit newbie (which means as for so many MMORPGS, that every level thereafter is harder to reach then before. Example: www.biosfear.co.uk, getting to level 100 is easy and doable in 2 weeks, which ends the newbiecycle. but then going from 100 to 200 at least takes you 6 months (I don't see a lineaur progression over here)). And this is one of the cheap ass so common MMORPGs out there like there are a gazillion in a dozen.
Why can't people think of those levels as the momentarilly capped maximumlevels (like level 20 for the game guildwars). But sure if you want 2 million levels lets just give you a licenceincrease after every botkill (thats lineair now isn't it).
Now back to some normal postingmethods, level 4 is the point of exit newbie (which means as for so many MMORPGS, that every level thereafter is harder to reach then before. Example: www.biosfear.co.uk, getting to level 100 is easy and doable in 2 weeks, which ends the newbiecycle. but then going from 100 to 200 at least takes you 6 months (I don't see a lineaur progression over here)). And this is one of the cheap ass so common MMORPGs out there like there are a gazillion in a dozen.
Re: Renegade ++RIP++
> I still don't understand why people can't understand that levelling stops at level
> 9/10/10/13/x (I don't know it for mining, and to lazy to check).
> Why can't people think of those levels as the momentarilly capped
> maximumlevels (like level 20 for the game guildwars).
But that's precisely the problem. It shouldn't stop so early, and there should continue to be new rewards for higher level for every few levels up to about 99, because otherwise, the level cap destroys the motivation for achieving additional levels beyond the cap. That is precisely the reason that I found it more fun to start a new character from scratch and work up to level 4, than to go from level 8 to 9 with my existing character (especially since I don't enjoy PvP or skill-building very much, and prefer level-building and item-gaining).
Some people have more fun with just gaining higher levels and more useful items (and with exploring and solving quests) than with just PvP or skill-building.
> But sure if you want 2 million levels lets just give you a licenceincrease after every botkill (thats lineair now isn't it).
No. Not "2 million levels." Ninety-nine levels or so at the most. The highest level should be practically achievable with enough effort. Two million levels would not be practically achievable, but ninety-nine could be, once the rate of effort increase required for each additional level becomes effectively linear, not exponential.
> And this is one of the cheap ass so common MMORPGs out there like there are a gazillion in a dozen.
Please refrain from using very vulgar language on the forums. Just because something is "cheap ass" to you doesn't automatically make it "cheap ass" to everybody else, and some people could find your pejorative quite offensive. This is precisely the kind of immature language that turns off many potential players from PvP games. In addition, you're not making sense. Just what do you mean by "a gazillion in a dozen?" Didn't you read the BIG sign before logging on that said, "Be Nice" ( see http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard?agree=y )? Please, try to be nice. IIRC, it's actually part of your license agreement.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
> I still don't understand why people can't understand that levelling stops at level
> 9/10/10/13/x (I don't know it for mining, and to lazy to check).
> Why can't people think of those levels as the momentarilly capped
> maximumlevels (like level 20 for the game guildwars).
But that's precisely the problem. It shouldn't stop so early, and there should continue to be new rewards for higher level for every few levels up to about 99, because otherwise, the level cap destroys the motivation for achieving additional levels beyond the cap. That is precisely the reason that I found it more fun to start a new character from scratch and work up to level 4, than to go from level 8 to 9 with my existing character (especially since I don't enjoy PvP or skill-building very much, and prefer level-building and item-gaining).
Some people have more fun with just gaining higher levels and more useful items (and with exploring and solving quests) than with just PvP or skill-building.
> But sure if you want 2 million levels lets just give you a licenceincrease after every botkill (thats lineair now isn't it).
No. Not "2 million levels." Ninety-nine levels or so at the most. The highest level should be practically achievable with enough effort. Two million levels would not be practically achievable, but ninety-nine could be, once the rate of effort increase required for each additional level becomes effectively linear, not exponential.
> And this is one of the cheap ass so common MMORPGs out there like there are a gazillion in a dozen.
Please refrain from using very vulgar language on the forums. Just because something is "cheap ass" to you doesn't automatically make it "cheap ass" to everybody else, and some people could find your pejorative quite offensive. This is precisely the kind of immature language that turns off many potential players from PvP games. In addition, you're not making sense. Just what do you mean by "a gazillion in a dozen?" Didn't you read the BIG sign before logging on that said, "Be Nice" ( see http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard?agree=y )? Please, try to be nice. IIRC, it's actually part of your license agreement.
-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier
[off topic]
Ass = Small donkey, the be nice part is aimed at our attitude towards other poeples posts, and feelings, it does not strech as far as saying "dont say ass"...
ie, if he says your an ass, he maybe in breach, but if he says, the nemesis is an ass, he is not, and I think that is up for the moderators to decide.
[/off topic]
I think while the leveling system needs some work (after all, this game is still very much a work in progress), and that maybe more equipment needs adding, ect ect, I see no need to change the way the current level system works. Just my opinion, of course. More interesting story based missions would be my top priority right now, see how they fit in with the level system, then lets see from there.
Ass = Small donkey, the be nice part is aimed at our attitude towards other poeples posts, and feelings, it does not strech as far as saying "dont say ass"...
ie, if he says your an ass, he maybe in breach, but if he says, the nemesis is an ass, he is not, and I think that is up for the moderators to decide.
[/off topic]
I think while the leveling system needs some work (after all, this game is still very much a work in progress), and that maybe more equipment needs adding, ect ect, I see no need to change the way the current level system works. Just my opinion, of course. More interesting story based missions would be my top priority right now, see how they fit in with the level system, then lets see from there.
The way I see it now:
Level 4 is fairly easy to attain, and gives you most of the good equipment. Practically speaking, you do not NEED to go above combat level 4. Making doing so easy is not IMO a good thing to do.
You do NOT at the moment have any real reason to get to combat level 9, aside from a sense of accomplishment at the end. "I'm finally here!"
And each level gets successively harder at a startling rate. Combat level 10 is almost impossible to get, combat 11 even more so. This progression is GOOD. Each level gained is an even greater achievement. If each consecutive level is just as hard as the last, it turns into: "Great, now I have an Ion Blaster MkXII. Time to gain another 10 levels and get an Ion Blaster MkXIII, which is an Ion Blaster MkXII with 2 velocity added." and becomes meaningless, whereas the way it is now...
This was one reason I liked Vendetta, in fact, I think. Getting levels is frigging hard, and requires active effort on your part. It's different from a lot of other games I've played, where levels are pretty much afterthoughts. "Crono gained a level! Yay... I guess."
-:sigma.SB
Level 4 is fairly easy to attain, and gives you most of the good equipment. Practically speaking, you do not NEED to go above combat level 4. Making doing so easy is not IMO a good thing to do.
You do NOT at the moment have any real reason to get to combat level 9, aside from a sense of accomplishment at the end. "I'm finally here!"
And each level gets successively harder at a startling rate. Combat level 10 is almost impossible to get, combat 11 even more so. This progression is GOOD. Each level gained is an even greater achievement. If each consecutive level is just as hard as the last, it turns into: "Great, now I have an Ion Blaster MkXII. Time to gain another 10 levels and get an Ion Blaster MkXIII, which is an Ion Blaster MkXII with 2 velocity added." and becomes meaningless, whereas the way it is now...
This was one reason I liked Vendetta, in fact, I think. Getting levels is frigging hard, and requires active effort on your part. It's different from a lot of other games I've played, where levels are pretty much afterthoughts. "Crono gained a level! Yay... I guess."
-:sigma.SB
Well guildwar (me grmbls at the advertising) is also an example of a hybrid rpg with pvp intents. It stops also at level 20 to make sure that newbies can come in and be competettive. If you want 99 levels then you are just making it so that newbies (or people with far less time) will become uncompetetive after a while. And I read on this site (and in some of its advertising towards customers) that it tried to offer a compettetivity based on skill not solely based on items. Which your idea of 99 levels would make (not to mention that we don't have enough items just to fill the void of 99 levels).
Still though even if we made it into 99 levels, what would stop us from making the level 9 combat equal to 99? Like always the point is that at this time there are only 9 levels available and needed, so why bother changing it into something all other mmorpgs do anyway, why can't we be different for a change? And my point of 2 million was just there to illustrate the point that the amount of levels doesn't matter.
I consider pve not the only intention of the game, its both pvp AND pve (on which they are working now). It is after all a hybrid, and not a pure point and click game. And in my view also the reason why I chose it.
Anyway offtopic,
the expression cheap ass was not meant in a derogatory comment since it is in fact one of the cheaper MMORPGs out there and quite fun for a limitted amount of time, after which it gets a tad repettetive in my taste. Although I have the impression that something like that is the thing you want to transform vendetta into. Not to mention that some people like things that are cheap moneywise, me being one of them. And that was just the idea that I wanted to transmit.
the little sentence gazillion in a dozen just means that there are a lot of them out there (its a litteral translation from a flemish expression)
And before you start making rash statements about usage of tongue, don't forget not everybody is as well articulated in a non native tongue as you presume yourselve to be. not to mention that I really can't see where 1 little overusage of a powerterm makes me immature.
/offtopic
But like yoda said, before we tinker with the levelsytstem, lmets make sure we first have a decent set of entertaining missions in place.
cheers
Still though even if we made it into 99 levels, what would stop us from making the level 9 combat equal to 99? Like always the point is that at this time there are only 9 levels available and needed, so why bother changing it into something all other mmorpgs do anyway, why can't we be different for a change? And my point of 2 million was just there to illustrate the point that the amount of levels doesn't matter.
I consider pve not the only intention of the game, its both pvp AND pve (on which they are working now). It is after all a hybrid, and not a pure point and click game. And in my view also the reason why I chose it.
Anyway offtopic,
the expression cheap ass was not meant in a derogatory comment since it is in fact one of the cheaper MMORPGs out there and quite fun for a limitted amount of time, after which it gets a tad repettetive in my taste. Although I have the impression that something like that is the thing you want to transform vendetta into. Not to mention that some people like things that are cheap moneywise, me being one of them. And that was just the idea that I wanted to transmit.
the little sentence gazillion in a dozen just means that there are a lot of them out there (its a litteral translation from a flemish expression)
And before you start making rash statements about usage of tongue, don't forget not everybody is as well articulated in a non native tongue as you presume yourselve to be. not to mention that I really can't see where 1 little overusage of a powerterm makes me immature.
/offtopic
But like yoda said, before we tinker with the levelsytstem, lmets make sure we first have a decent set of entertaining missions in place.
cheers
I'm with Rene on his observations. It reminds me of a scene from Spinal Tap where he makes his amp go to 11 to make it "better".
I also have to frequently tell noobs it is okay if the different skills don't all progress at the same speed. Some sound annoyed that the light and heavy weapons don't level up at exactly the same time.
I also have to frequently tell noobs it is okay if the different skills don't all progress at the same speed. Some sound annoyed that the light and heavy weapons don't level up at exactly the same time.
While messing with the leveling system right away might not be the right thing to do at the moment, one way that we could keep n00bs more satisfied with their current levels is by *not* showing XP gained (but keep showing the amount you get from each bot when you destroy one), but rather show a percentage of how close you are to the next level in the player statistics.
This was one reason I liked Vendetta, in fact, I think. Getting levels is frigging hard, and requires active effort on your part.
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hmm... why on earth would genka format his laughter like THAT :D
And I totally agree with him:
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And I totally agree with him:
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in responce to the original post:
Your right, at higher levels there is NO incentive to continue to bot. I'm sure that the devs are aware of this fact, and have made statements that they are in the process of making botting and xp grinding in general more fun, and less of a grind. I don't know how since there wiki site is still not up and they have only illuded to some of the ways in which they plan to do this. Such as bots that are quazi-defeatable with waves of bots. New missions, which hopefully will give better xp rewards, etc. And of course the bigger then a queen bot, what ever that may be (King?). But until then we are stuck.
Personally, I would simply make each bot worth a set value, as the pilot is able to kill stronger and stronger bots they will start to take in more and more xp. If someone wants to stay around and kill 3billion collectors to get to combat 8 let them, it's only going to hunt him/her. Also, Queens, HAC's and Other special NPC bots should also be given xp, equal to the level of difficulty it is to kill them. Or, base it off of a predetermined cxp level, since all bots now have licenses (I think, or is it just traders?).
As for the requirements for each level, a linear progression of the ammount is definitely a good idea!!!!
Your right, at higher levels there is NO incentive to continue to bot. I'm sure that the devs are aware of this fact, and have made statements that they are in the process of making botting and xp grinding in general more fun, and less of a grind. I don't know how since there wiki site is still not up and they have only illuded to some of the ways in which they plan to do this. Such as bots that are quazi-defeatable with waves of bots. New missions, which hopefully will give better xp rewards, etc. And of course the bigger then a queen bot, what ever that may be (King?). But until then we are stuck.
Personally, I would simply make each bot worth a set value, as the pilot is able to kill stronger and stronger bots they will start to take in more and more xp. If someone wants to stay around and kill 3billion collectors to get to combat 8 let them, it's only going to hunt him/her. Also, Queens, HAC's and Other special NPC bots should also be given xp, equal to the level of difficulty it is to kill them. Or, base it off of a predetermined cxp level, since all bots now have licenses (I think, or is it just traders?).
As for the requirements for each level, a linear progression of the ammount is definitely a good idea!!!!
personaly i would like to see a more efficent sorce of combat xp. Probably in the form of a new mission or missions. However i don't think it should be too much more efficent. After all the point of having levels is to reward those players who put the effort into gaining them. Additionaly i think there should be some larger ships that require level 10+ combat. Posably the fabled player operated cap. ships.
All I got to say is, MMORPG - MRP = Multiplayer Online Game.
/givemoney Devs 2c
/givemoney Devs 2c