Topic pretty much says it all, I was in a fight yesterday with a pair of people backrolling perfectly in sync spamming rockets, what fun. And naturally you cant hit them because the autoaim doesnt hit rollers unless you are right on them. Rollers are making a hugecomeback lately though, and fixing this would make the combat considerably less boring.

See http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/10022 for why this is a pretty involved and potentially impossible thing to do.

Two words: Auto-aim Off (the hyphen makes that one word right?)

I used to think this was impossible. And I still think that it is really difficult. BUT, I am starting to use it more and I am starting to realize that it does work. Basically because back rollers get pretty confident when they're back a bit, and as a result get extremely predictable. So, you just spam the hell out of the area where they're about to be. Auto-aim doesn't let you attack this properly because you need to basically shoot just a fraction off of the target recepticle, but with it on, you either shoot exactly where the receptacle is... or waaay off.

The other thing I've noticed, is that if you land a couple strings on a back roller from a distance, they do one of two things. Turn tail and run, or change their strategy and move in for a closer fight.

they make pretty circles in general, or ellipses if they're fancy, if you have a single tach/neut bound to a key, literraly just following an approximated course and improvising WITHOUT letting go will force them out of the roll, or they will be hit.

this is where flechettes would come in handy. Or rather, flechettes with proximity so they have an area effect.

"Luke... you've switched off your targeting computer... what's wrong?"

...seriously though, turn off the autoaim. Rollers are actually very predictable, and if you can learn to hit one without autoaim, they often panic when their invincible barrel roll becomes a turkey shoot.

Ok I'm a little slow what exactly is a back roll??? O.o?

Backrolling is when a player continually backs away from his or her opponent, while rolling, it makes it very difficult to get close to them, and the autoaim doesn't work so hot.

Its generally frowned upon, because all they're doing is holding down 3 keys while aiming.

But yeah Phaserlight is right, just switch off autoaim, hit em once or twice and they tend to panic

I also like using FA mode with no forward momentum, if they want to fight me, they're going to have to stay near me, if they back off, well, tough beans for them.

turn the auto-aim of and predict it yourself!!

(my 2 cents)

Z

I concur with Zero. Autoaim is a nice thing to have, but I don't use it very often. Rather than complain "the autoaim is too easily defeated", learn to shoot. And don't complain about reversing... I was one of the first people to use it, and I think it's still a perfectly valid tactic, since the relative shot velocity can be manipulated to the attacker's benefit as well. IE: If I'm going -60m/s, and my opponent is going 60ms, and both of our shots have an absolute velocity of 200m/s, his shots appear to go 200m/s to me, and mine appear to go 200m/s to him. If I'm going -60m/s and he's going 10m/s, our shots appear at 150m/s each. Da.

"Backrolling", as you call it, is a valid tactic in my eyes because it has a counter (several, actually). Likewise for rocket-ramming. Things like quad-railing (in 3.2.0), those were exploits because there was no counter. Ditto for station nuking and instanuking. Swarm spamming is not really any better.

If autoaim is so easily defeated though, whats the point? To make it easier to hit new players? And just for the record, Im not talking about backrollers so much as any kind of persistent roller. Id just like to see the autoaim at fixed enough to be effective. For instance, say you have a heavy ship and try to hit a rolling rev c with autoaim off, quite unlikely. That alone isnt so bad, except that you also cant hit it with autoaim on. Effective counters to rolling require certain weapon layouts, and the imbalance occurs in the fact that anyone can roll, but only people who expect them or naturally fly the layout effective against them can really have any effect. Rolling is so insanely effective that I feel at least a little needs to be done to tone it down a touch. I gave backrolling a shot the other day and lasted well over 10 minutes against a pair of rev c's with minimal effort and taking them both down into the red with casual n2 spam. One possibly easier solution could be to just slow down the roll speed on the ships, as that is really the key factor in it. Then rolling would still be viable in situations where rolling is called for, but it wouldnt be a "Magic Button" to anyone who wishes for a taste of invincibility. Keep in mind I'm not trying to rant, but I do believe it would make combat more fun for all, while at the same time helping new players learn actual fighting tactics, and fixing a long standing thing that many players consider a problem. So often now I see a new player get told to roll, and then they never stop, because its such an easy thing to do with great effects for the person doing it.

Re: tramshed

> One possibly easier solution could be to just slow down the roll speed on the
> ships, as that is really the key factor in it. Then rolling would still be viable in
> situations where rolling is called for, but it wouldnt be a "Magic Button" to
> anyone who wishes for a taste of invincibility.

Sorry, but I can't see why "[t]hen rolling would still be viable in situations where rolling is called for." What situations?

Backrolling isn't a "Magic Button" for "invincibility." It's just a very effective tactic against newbies and robots. It has its drawbacks. Backrolls that use automated scripts are very predictable and easily defeated. Backrolls that don't use automated scripts tend to make the fingers ache after a while, and are hard to keep up for long.

Slowing down the roll speed wouldn't keep rolling "viable"; it would make it useless. It would make hunting TyCorp and Prosus Assault ships even more tedious than now. Imagine hunting 500 TyCorp Assault ships without backrolling! Most players who hunt TyCorps fight them by combining backrolling and vertical strafing. Those who hunt Valent or Prosus Assaults hunt them by backrolling and shooting Chaos Swarms and Geminis. These strategies only work because of the roll speed; slowing the roll speed would make routine botting incredibly tedious and time-consuming. Since botting is the only efficient way to gain Combat Piloting experience, it would make it almost impossible to gain any high Combat levels.

I'd say just add a message to the loading screens advertising that turning auto-aim off is an effective tactic against backrolling, and learn to master shooting with auto-aim off. It opens up a whole new arena of challenging fighting skills to master.

-- DekuDekuplex Ornitier

Hrm. I killed plenty of bots without backrolling. In fact I don't even know how to backroll effectively =/, and when I roll to much it gives me a headache...

you have to roll to kill bots???
Since when?

backrolling is a valid tactic.. It's a cheap one, and one without any honor at all if you started the fight.

Thats actually the main problem, people start a fight, sneak in behind an unsuspecting player.. do about 30-60% damage and then immediately start backrolling.

I still think the whole problem could be fixed by just making the lateral and reverse thrust and top speeds on a ship be only a % of forward thrust. if a ship retreats at 15m/s (or 25%) slower than it goes forward, backrolling becomes less effective, rolling itself is unchanged.
Less lateral thrust means that the super light - super fast ships become less effective at "knife fighting" range because they dont dodge side to side quite as fast, while still retaining the speed and acceleration to act as an interceptor/chase ship.

The larger ships like the prom and rag would be effected by a reduction in lateral thrust even more, because it would take longer for them to get up to speed in a dodge. rockets would become more powerful against them because dodging would be harder.

Giving ships like the warthog and the hornet a smaller difference in forward/lateral thrust would make them more effective, because while still slower in a straight line, they would have better dodging abilities relative to thier smaller faster cousins.

Hmmm, maybe I should post a link to a vid how I bot, nah, tis a big download. Backroll? I forward roll, when i'm near touching the nose of another player, at which point they hopefully lose track of me, and I can shoot them in the ass (if they know this trick too, it can be fun, headbutts in space I tell you!). Against a bot, I strafe lots, infact, while botting, I only ever roll when i feel like flying kinda fancy. or another player tries to bot in my sector!

I dont actually have any real problem dealing with backrollers, its just boring, and takes time, i'd rather have a moth duel, at least they are fun! (imagine two backrollers fighting? sheesh)

Maybe changing thrust depending on direction could be a good thing, maybe not, but I do believe auto aim needs a tweak, there are more situations that also mean you will miss if autoaim is used.

autoaim is a mixed blessing, just turbo a little and watch the fun. I for one roll + strafe quite a bit when I do PvP, I don't ever actually go backwards, but at the same time, I don't really have many options with my normal layout. if one nerfed the ability for ships to roll / strafe in any way, certain layouts would be impossible to use effectivly, since DPE and DPS would be kings of the hill at all times.

as for botting, I agree with Yoda, I never roll unless I'm doing something fancy. well, I might roll a little to align myself with the Ty, but once we're aligned, I just strafe.

lately though, with my uber-crappy work days, I have been known to just rocket things into oblivion. there is something to be said for watching a couple of screamers hit.

honestly, i think the fact that there is autoaim at all is something people should be gratefull for. this game is described as being entierly based on the player's skill with no "virtual dice". that means that if you can't aim well enoug to hit too bad for you. no amount of leveling or special equipment will compensate for thar deficency.

as for backroling, i have a hard time seeing it as an actual problem. if your oponent can't dodge except when he backroles, than you can just hold position and strafe. he will have to stop backroling and close the distance eventaly. And besides every game has it's exploits. Look at most FPSs. in any FPS that has a jump function, most people jump repetedly and nearly continiously. jumping becomes the primary method for avoiding fire.

in short, if you can't hit rolers you need practice not a beter autoaim. and if you do nothing but backrole, you are a jerk, but the people who complain every time anyone backroles for even just a moment are no better.

if you want to fight oponents who always use the same tactics, than fight bots. if you want to have to learn how to fight somone eho can learn and adapt to your skill fight other players.

I know how to fight everyone, my point was the fact that such a simple thing as pressing the roll key has such a dramatic effect, and it encourages not learning actual tactics and methods for fighting people. In a fight, all I have to do is hold down q or e, and I basically double my ships armor with no detriment in any other area. If I combine that with going backwards, its more like tripling with the option of never dying.

I would like to say I only use auto aim for Gauss, it is not a great over powered weapon in any way, if you can hit someone 150m+ away, your doing something right, IMHO Gauss = Rottweiler, you get up close, and sick in in their face, you cannot if they will not close combat range, imagine this :

*Some guy shoots me in the ass usually cos im gunna blat someone else, or just flying about, ect, I turn to shoot him, maybe get a hit or two, then he presses s+d+e, even if I can stay within Gauss effective range all my shots miss*

Now if I had neuts I would not use autoaim at this point, I'd just fill space round em with energy spam, hoping to get a hit, backrolling may be a valid option, so is not fighting anyone who backrolls, or at least giving them boring fights if they do, tis what i do eh ;)

Since the challenge of "fixing" the aim for rolling is too involved...
Would it be a lot of work to allow us to calibrate our autoaim ourselves?

Imagine having someone strafe in 1 direction at a set distance and moving the lead target until the shot hits, that way we could have some players who have their aim set at 100m or maybe even higher, as opposed to the 50-60m it is now.

We could even have presets for specific ships/weapons, or even for special maneuvers we think up.