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It has come to my attention that a player is abusing the key system to prevent station contestation from functioning as intended.
A plugin is being used to forcibly reapply unwanted keys to pilots while they are in the middle of attacking a station, thereby rendering them KOS with "their own station", and in doing so applying a fifteen minute prevention from capturing the dock to all of the attackers seeking to take the station.
This timer overlaps tightly with the station turret self restoration timer, effectively rendering capture impossible, unless a new throwaway character is made specifically for the purpose of taking the dock, and even that would not be effective if the player abusing the key system were to add them to their plugin on the fly.
If station keys had to be accepted by the recipient, in a manner that *did not cause a popup window*, but merely required eventual menu interaction to accept it, this exploit would be mitigated.
As an example of just how abused this mechanic has become, I instructed my entire attacking force to delete the keys so that we could have a proper chance to capture the dock, and within the time it took to strike the first turret, I had already been given the unwanted key again, removing any chance of taking the dock before the battle began.
An option to permanently deny acceptance of a specific key ID would also likely prevent this.
The player doing this is clearly acting in bad faith towards the game as a whole.
A plugin is being used to forcibly reapply unwanted keys to pilots while they are in the middle of attacking a station, thereby rendering them KOS with "their own station", and in doing so applying a fifteen minute prevention from capturing the dock to all of the attackers seeking to take the station.
This timer overlaps tightly with the station turret self restoration timer, effectively rendering capture impossible, unless a new throwaway character is made specifically for the purpose of taking the dock, and even that would not be effective if the player abusing the key system were to add them to their plugin on the fly.
If station keys had to be accepted by the recipient, in a manner that *did not cause a popup window*, but merely required eventual menu interaction to accept it, this exploit would be mitigated.
As an example of just how abused this mechanic has become, I instructed my entire attacking force to delete the keys so that we could have a proper chance to capture the dock, and within the time it took to strike the first turret, I had already been given the unwanted key again, removing any chance of taking the dock before the battle began.
An option to permanently deny acceptance of a specific key ID would also likely prevent this.
The player doing this is clearly acting in bad faith towards the game as a whole.
Yeah offensive use of keys is mighty fucking annoying. +1 from me.
Moved to the bugs forum
tl;dr: My question is why getting a key or taking a tkos on the conq station prevents you from capping the station at all. Shouldn't the defenses going down be a full "reset" on the defenses, tkos, etc.? Just get rid of the problem at the source--there should be no disadvantage to being given a key at any point.
> It has come to my attention that a player is abusing the key system to prevent station contestation from functioning as intended.
I'm assuming you are talking about me here, since I don't think you're fighting anyone else for the stations. This is a pretty big accusation to make, and since we both know it's spurious, the only thing that can come from it is that the devs waste time investigating something that never happened. I legitimately do not know how you can possibly come to the conclusion that any abuse is occurring based on what happened. It would be better if you just described the problem as you see it and your potential ideas to fix it, rather than making false accusations of malicious intent.
> A plugin is being used to forcibly reapply unwanted keys to pilots while they are in the middle of attacking a station, thereby rendering them KOS with "their own station", and in doing so applying a fifteen minute prevention from capturing the dock to all of the attackers seeking to take the station.
As of now, the only plugin I use that actually applies or revokes keys is the "Key manager" plugin available on voupr. All it does is provide a more convenient UI for interacting with keys, it does not automate the distribution or revoking of keys.
Seperately, I use a script to aggregate player names from 100, and then use Key manager to manually hand out keys to players that aren't already keyed. Initially, I would also check for players that had previously chatted but had revoked their own keys, to re-add them. I was made aware that this was annoying and unwanted, so I stopped doing that--once a player has revoked their own key, I no longer re-add them unless they ask me to. I had planned to implement automation connecting the chat reader script to actually handing out keys..but haven't gotten around to it yet.
Regardless, I am not "forcibly reapplying" keys, either manually or automatically.
I do revoke keys during station battles where one or more players is taking advantage of the fact that they have a key to attack defenders or otherwise provide support without needing to worry about the automated defenses. If a player manually removes their own key before attacking, I do not re-add them. If a player attacks the station defenses and gets a tkos, I do not remove them in the first place, since the defenses already correctly attack them.
After I deem that a player is no longer posing a threat to station defenders, meaning after I think the fight is over, I re-add them to the key--effectively manually enforcing a tkos for people only attacking defenders/capships and not the station defenses.
In last night's case, there were 3 players attacking Pelatus C-12: Ultionis, GonzoTheGoofy, and DylanH120. All three had been keyed long before they attacked. GonzoTheGoofy and DylanH120 both attacked station defenses initially, so they got a tkos--I didn't touch their keys. It appeared to me that Ultionis was trying to use his capship as support without triggering his own tkos, so I revoked his key. After that, the fight went on for a good long while across multiple sectors and I didn't change anyone's key status. When I had effectively neutralized the threat and the attacks had ceased for several minutes, I re-added Ultionis. If they had planned to attack again after that point, I didn't see them again. I also use 3 separate keys for the different stations, and only
At no point did I have any intention to abuse the key mechanics to prevent anyone from being capable of capturing the dock. I also don't think there was any disadvantage to the attackers in this case, for what it's worth. Any player that was in the dock died well before they could have capped the station.
If there's a better way to accomplish what I want in the current system, which is that everyone who doesn't remove their own keys is keyed, while also ensuring that when a hostile player is attacking a station that the automated defenses will attack them, I'm all ears.
> If station keys had to be accepted by the recipient, in a manner that *did not cause a popup window*, but merely required eventual menu interaction to accept it, this exploit would be mitigated.
Specifically for station keys, I agree that this could be a solution to the problem you describe, although it causes another problem: when taking a station as a group when there is not an established key, in order to prevent players from being immediately shot by the station defenses, the person creating the key has to quickly grant keys to anyone in the sector. This also happens when an incorrect key is assigned, such as a player accidentally creating a new key when they meant to assign an existing key. Adding a step requiring players to accept keys would make it significantly more likely for players to get shot by what should be their own station defenses, and could be immediately costly in situations where the station is actively contested.
My question is why getting a key or taking a tkos on the conq station prevents you from capping the station at all. Shouldn't the defenses going down be a full "reset" on the defenses, tkos, etc.? Just get rid of the problem at the source--there should be no disadvantage to being given a key at any point.
> An option to permanently deny acceptance of a specific key ID would also likely prevent this.
Sure, this would be a reasonable option to have. There still shouldn't be any disadvantage to being given a key--that's still the core problem here.
> The player doing this is clearly acting in bad faith towards the game as a whole.
I don't know what you're trying to accomplish by making up lies about me. I'm literally just playing the game. By virtue of being the primary active player that represents decades of misdirected and misinformed angst, I'm being constantly targeted and harassed--partially by legitimate gameplay methods, but also in a lot of ways that cross the line. This is one of those ways. Keep your bitching at the gameplay level and stop making baseless accusations.
> Yeah offensive use of keys is mighty fucking annoying. +1 from me.
One could say that taking advantage of the fact that one has a key to setup to attack station defenses unimpeded is "mighty fucking annoying". If you are attacking or planning to attack me or the station, regardless of whether you've technically triggered a tkos, you shouldn't be surprised if your key gets revoked.
> Moved to the bugs forum
I don't think this is a bug. I think it's functioning as intended, and causing legitimate gameplay problems because of that. I agree that it should change but I don't think anything described here is unintended.
> It has come to my attention that a player is abusing the key system to prevent station contestation from functioning as intended.
I'm assuming you are talking about me here, since I don't think you're fighting anyone else for the stations. This is a pretty big accusation to make, and since we both know it's spurious, the only thing that can come from it is that the devs waste time investigating something that never happened. I legitimately do not know how you can possibly come to the conclusion that any abuse is occurring based on what happened. It would be better if you just described the problem as you see it and your potential ideas to fix it, rather than making false accusations of malicious intent.
> A plugin is being used to forcibly reapply unwanted keys to pilots while they are in the middle of attacking a station, thereby rendering them KOS with "their own station", and in doing so applying a fifteen minute prevention from capturing the dock to all of the attackers seeking to take the station.
As of now, the only plugin I use that actually applies or revokes keys is the "Key manager" plugin available on voupr. All it does is provide a more convenient UI for interacting with keys, it does not automate the distribution or revoking of keys.
Seperately, I use a script to aggregate player names from 100, and then use Key manager to manually hand out keys to players that aren't already keyed. Initially, I would also check for players that had previously chatted but had revoked their own keys, to re-add them. I was made aware that this was annoying and unwanted, so I stopped doing that--once a player has revoked their own key, I no longer re-add them unless they ask me to. I had planned to implement automation connecting the chat reader script to actually handing out keys..but haven't gotten around to it yet.
Regardless, I am not "forcibly reapplying" keys, either manually or automatically.
I do revoke keys during station battles where one or more players is taking advantage of the fact that they have a key to attack defenders or otherwise provide support without needing to worry about the automated defenses. If a player manually removes their own key before attacking, I do not re-add them. If a player attacks the station defenses and gets a tkos, I do not remove them in the first place, since the defenses already correctly attack them.
After I deem that a player is no longer posing a threat to station defenders, meaning after I think the fight is over, I re-add them to the key--effectively manually enforcing a tkos for people only attacking defenders/capships and not the station defenses.
In last night's case, there were 3 players attacking Pelatus C-12: Ultionis, GonzoTheGoofy, and DylanH120. All three had been keyed long before they attacked. GonzoTheGoofy and DylanH120 both attacked station defenses initially, so they got a tkos--I didn't touch their keys. It appeared to me that Ultionis was trying to use his capship as support without triggering his own tkos, so I revoked his key. After that, the fight went on for a good long while across multiple sectors and I didn't change anyone's key status. When I had effectively neutralized the threat and the attacks had ceased for several minutes, I re-added Ultionis. If they had planned to attack again after that point, I didn't see them again. I also use 3 separate keys for the different stations, and only
At no point did I have any intention to abuse the key mechanics to prevent anyone from being capable of capturing the dock. I also don't think there was any disadvantage to the attackers in this case, for what it's worth. Any player that was in the dock died well before they could have capped the station.
If there's a better way to accomplish what I want in the current system, which is that everyone who doesn't remove their own keys is keyed, while also ensuring that when a hostile player is attacking a station that the automated defenses will attack them, I'm all ears.
> If station keys had to be accepted by the recipient, in a manner that *did not cause a popup window*, but merely required eventual menu interaction to accept it, this exploit would be mitigated.
Specifically for station keys, I agree that this could be a solution to the problem you describe, although it causes another problem: when taking a station as a group when there is not an established key, in order to prevent players from being immediately shot by the station defenses, the person creating the key has to quickly grant keys to anyone in the sector. This also happens when an incorrect key is assigned, such as a player accidentally creating a new key when they meant to assign an existing key. Adding a step requiring players to accept keys would make it significantly more likely for players to get shot by what should be their own station defenses, and could be immediately costly in situations where the station is actively contested.
My question is why getting a key or taking a tkos on the conq station prevents you from capping the station at all. Shouldn't the defenses going down be a full "reset" on the defenses, tkos, etc.? Just get rid of the problem at the source--there should be no disadvantage to being given a key at any point.
> An option to permanently deny acceptance of a specific key ID would also likely prevent this.
Sure, this would be a reasonable option to have. There still shouldn't be any disadvantage to being given a key--that's still the core problem here.
> The player doing this is clearly acting in bad faith towards the game as a whole.
I don't know what you're trying to accomplish by making up lies about me. I'm literally just playing the game. By virtue of being the primary active player that represents decades of misdirected and misinformed angst, I'm being constantly targeted and harassed--partially by legitimate gameplay methods, but also in a lot of ways that cross the line. This is one of those ways. Keep your bitching at the gameplay level and stop making baseless accusations.
> Yeah offensive use of keys is mighty fucking annoying. +1 from me.
One could say that taking advantage of the fact that one has a key to setup to attack station defenses unimpeded is "mighty fucking annoying". If you are attacking or planning to attack me or the station, regardless of whether you've technically triggered a tkos, you shouldn't be surprised if your key gets revoked.
> Moved to the bugs forum
I don't think this is a bug. I think it's functioning as intended, and causing legitimate gameplay problems because of that. I agree that it should change but I don't think anything described here is unintended.
It is that way because people would attack their own turrets once low, to abuse the mechanic. You know this.
Better to say to your friends who are unkeyed, "clear out" than to have to make an alt just to take the dock. You are not responding in good faith, and trying to revert to a previous exploit...
youre such a lying hack that you said tl;dr, then responded to each and every line. who do you think you are fooling? just play the game and stop trying to constantly act like someone is doing you wrong. you chose to be a pirate, so just be a pirate. people call you a liar, because you are
your account of what happened during the battle is full of tiresome lies about timeline, actions, and intentions.
we counted down and revoked our keys, before ever firing a shot, each of us revoked our keys simultaneously, after a countdown. it was less than twenty seconds before my first shots hit, yet i still got tkos after revoking your key? you are a disgusting liar
and since you are using profanity in your post, go **** yourself you filthy piece of ****
you admitted in 100 that you automatically apply keys to anyone who has spoken in the game chat. it is well known that you reapply keys to players who delete them
people like you are the reason we cant have nice things
maybe if you spent more time getting friends to play the game like i have, instead of focusing on petty exploits and multiboxing, you would have a better time, and the game would be more fun for everyone.
ksteel81, in engaging in personal attacks you have violated forum rules and I am locking you out of this thread. If the devs need more info they will connect with you.
All: Kindly do not take this argument to another thread or any other public area of VO including Discord. The devs are informed and will take whatever action they see fit.
All: Kindly do not take this argument to another thread or any other public area of VO including Discord. The devs are informed and will take whatever action they see fit.
Hey I never got given the key back after I deleted my copy before the assault, although I can Confirm that ultionis did get given a key midway through the assault. Threw us off a little bit, but it wasn't the end of the world.
Perhaps there could be changes made to the key system, IE as ultionis suggested, a command menu confirmation to either accept or deny keys
However we should all also remember that this is a game at the end of the day, let's all take a minute to cool down and breath. No need to get all personal about it yk?
Regardless of whatever exploits may be, or may not be, at the end of the day we had fun. And that's what really matters innit?
+1 from me, in regards to an accept / deny key option to be added in the future
Perhaps there could be changes made to the key system, IE as ultionis suggested, a command menu confirmation to either accept or deny keys
However we should all also remember that this is a game at the end of the day, let's all take a minute to cool down and breath. No need to get all personal about it yk?
Regardless of whatever exploits may be, or may not be, at the end of the day we had fun. And that's what really matters innit?
+1 from me, in regards to an accept / deny key option to be added in the future
As someone who participated, I'd like to add my perspective and hopefully help clarify the situation.
Before we began our assault, all three of us removed our keys to the station. We did not get a TKOS, but rather a KOS simply from no longer being keyed to the station. Ultionis positioned his Goliath behind the cover of the large ice crystal prsent in the sector. There was no abuse of IFF mechanics on our part.
While the three of us were actively engaging the station defenses, Ultionis had his key re-added. I suppose this was due to confusion over what was taking place. I would assume that the attack reports are not fully synchronous to the actual events in real-time. Still, I'm skeptical of why there was any need to re-add access keys to any player that has already proven hostile intent, especially mere minutes after the attack began. If the goal is to let the station defenses do their job, there should be no reason to add keys to any of the attacking players, if not to otherwise abuse the system.
I'd also like to point out that at no point was Hawkfeather physically present during the battle. Any information he received would have been through second-hand reports.
Regardless of recent events, I do agree that the system does need to be changed to prevent keys from being added without the receiver's consent.
Before we began our assault, all three of us removed our keys to the station. We did not get a TKOS, but rather a KOS simply from no longer being keyed to the station. Ultionis positioned his Goliath behind the cover of the large ice crystal prsent in the sector. There was no abuse of IFF mechanics on our part.
While the three of us were actively engaging the station defenses, Ultionis had his key re-added. I suppose this was due to confusion over what was taking place. I would assume that the attack reports are not fully synchronous to the actual events in real-time. Still, I'm skeptical of why there was any need to re-add access keys to any player that has already proven hostile intent, especially mere minutes after the attack began. If the goal is to let the station defenses do their job, there should be no reason to add keys to any of the attacking players, if not to otherwise abuse the system.
I'd also like to point out that at no point was Hawkfeather physically present during the battle. Any information he received would have been through second-hand reports.
Regardless of recent events, I do agree that the system does need to be changed to prevent keys from being added without the receiver's consent.
> It is that way because people would attack their own turrets once low, to abuse the mechanic. You know this.
People already do this, it just requires 2 players defending or an alt. Generally it’s not even a great idea strategically, imo, but it has its moments. I’d much rather allow that to happen for the single-alt defender than allow the key granting/revoking shenanigans.
> Better to say to your friends who are unkeyed, "clear out" than to have to make an alt just to take the dock. You are not responding in good faith, and trying to revert to a previous exploit...
This is fine when it’s not contested, but when you cap the station having all allies present in sector is desirable. I am responding in good faith, I’m agreeing with you that the key thing is an issue that should be fixed, I just don’t think your way of handling it is that great. It adds an unnecessary layer to the entire station key system, creates new problems, and isn’t even all that amazing at addressing the problem.
The “previous exploit” is still easy to do with 2 characters. If anything allowing it with 1 character levels the playing field.
> youre such a lying hack that you said tl;dr, then responded to each and every line. who do you think you are fooling? just play the game and stop trying to constantly act like someone is doing you wrong. you chose to be a pirate, so just be a pirate. people call you a liar, because you are.
I probably didn’t delineate it clearly, but I wrote that very long post, realized people probably wouldn’t read the whole thing, so I copied the most relevant part to the top as a tl;dr. It also appears later. Yes, I’m going to respond to every part of your accusation.
> your account of what happened during the battle is full of tiresome lies about timeline, actions, and intentions.
It’s really not. The only key I revoked was yours, there was no need to revoke the others. I only re-added yours after the fight was effectively over. Your buddies always had keys since the beginning until they revoked their own, and I never re-added them. You also revoked your keys again after I re-added you, and I didn’t re-add you. Because adding keys is something I do manually, at least thus far. I presume anything else you claim happened could be confirmed false with a quick look at the logs.
> we counted down and revoked our keys, before ever firing a shot, each of us revoked our keys simultaneously, after a countdown. it was less than twenty seconds before my first shots hit, yet i still got tkos after revoking your key? you are a disgusting liar
I think that revoking your own key still leaves you with a timer where you won’t be able to cap the station. Not sure if this is intended but yeah, it’s a truly heinous way to handle it that favors one use case (preventing killing own turrets) to the detriment of another. Like I’ve said multiple times, it should be handled differently and abusing how it currently works would be an exploit. If the simple act of adding a key back after revoking it for an attacker causes this much of a problem for the attacker, that’s really bad and should be changed.
> you admitted in 100 that you automatically apply keys to anyone who has spoken in the game chat
Like I said above, it’s not really “automatically” yet—the automatic part is getting the list of unique people that have chatted. I intend to make it fully automatic at some point but I haven’t gotten around to it.
> it is well known that you reapply keys to players who delete them
I did for a bit, then some people complained so I no longer do this by default. I certainly don’t do it to prevent people from capping stations. If I revoke a key for a fight, I put it back once the fight is over—I assume if someone hasn’t removed their key they want to have it in general, even if I can’t allow them to have it for a fight.
> people like you are the reason we cant have nice things
If an exploit exists, it should be fixed. We literally have the same goal. You’re just salty about losing a fight and want to blame it on a nefarious exploit that never happened, and wouldn’t have mattered if it did. The personal insults are completely worthless to this thread and should be left for in-game, or just left unsaid entirely if you can manage a modicum of self-control to stop lying and slandering.
People already do this, it just requires 2 players defending or an alt. Generally it’s not even a great idea strategically, imo, but it has its moments. I’d much rather allow that to happen for the single-alt defender than allow the key granting/revoking shenanigans.
> Better to say to your friends who are unkeyed, "clear out" than to have to make an alt just to take the dock. You are not responding in good faith, and trying to revert to a previous exploit...
This is fine when it’s not contested, but when you cap the station having all allies present in sector is desirable. I am responding in good faith, I’m agreeing with you that the key thing is an issue that should be fixed, I just don’t think your way of handling it is that great. It adds an unnecessary layer to the entire station key system, creates new problems, and isn’t even all that amazing at addressing the problem.
The “previous exploit” is still easy to do with 2 characters. If anything allowing it with 1 character levels the playing field.
> youre such a lying hack that you said tl;dr, then responded to each and every line. who do you think you are fooling? just play the game and stop trying to constantly act like someone is doing you wrong. you chose to be a pirate, so just be a pirate. people call you a liar, because you are.
I probably didn’t delineate it clearly, but I wrote that very long post, realized people probably wouldn’t read the whole thing, so I copied the most relevant part to the top as a tl;dr. It also appears later. Yes, I’m going to respond to every part of your accusation.
> your account of what happened during the battle is full of tiresome lies about timeline, actions, and intentions.
It’s really not. The only key I revoked was yours, there was no need to revoke the others. I only re-added yours after the fight was effectively over. Your buddies always had keys since the beginning until they revoked their own, and I never re-added them. You also revoked your keys again after I re-added you, and I didn’t re-add you. Because adding keys is something I do manually, at least thus far. I presume anything else you claim happened could be confirmed false with a quick look at the logs.
> we counted down and revoked our keys, before ever firing a shot, each of us revoked our keys simultaneously, after a countdown. it was less than twenty seconds before my first shots hit, yet i still got tkos after revoking your key? you are a disgusting liar
I think that revoking your own key still leaves you with a timer where you won’t be able to cap the station. Not sure if this is intended but yeah, it’s a truly heinous way to handle it that favors one use case (preventing killing own turrets) to the detriment of another. Like I’ve said multiple times, it should be handled differently and abusing how it currently works would be an exploit. If the simple act of adding a key back after revoking it for an attacker causes this much of a problem for the attacker, that’s really bad and should be changed.
> you admitted in 100 that you automatically apply keys to anyone who has spoken in the game chat
Like I said above, it’s not really “automatically” yet—the automatic part is getting the list of unique people that have chatted. I intend to make it fully automatic at some point but I haven’t gotten around to it.
> it is well known that you reapply keys to players who delete them
I did for a bit, then some people complained so I no longer do this by default. I certainly don’t do it to prevent people from capping stations. If I revoke a key for a fight, I put it back once the fight is over—I assume if someone hasn’t removed their key they want to have it in general, even if I can’t allow them to have it for a fight.
> people like you are the reason we cant have nice things
If an exploit exists, it should be fixed. We literally have the same goal. You’re just salty about losing a fight and want to blame it on a nefarious exploit that never happened, and wouldn’t have mattered if it did. The personal insults are completely worthless to this thread and should be left for in-game, or just left unsaid entirely if you can manage a modicum of self-control to stop lying and slandering.
I know that Ultionis didn’t remove his own key before your attack, because I revoked it myself. Maybe he meant to and didn’t for whatever reason.
As far as when he got the key back, it’s possible I’m misremembering or I thought the threat was over before y’all did. I thought I re-added it after I didn’t see y’all come back for a while but it might have been before that. In any case, it was never intended to stop anyone from capping the station. If that were my goal I could have given/taken keys to/from all 3 of you repeatedly. I’ve also never done that in a lot of other station battles so I don’t know why you’d think I would start now.
The fact that getting a key can stop station capping at all just seems really wrong to me. The use case it’s trying to stop can still be done with multiple characters, comes with risks and most likely isn’t even worth it, and even in the case where it’s good to do doesn’t seem all that overly powerful to me. This other case on the other hand feels way more problematic.
Maybe an “accept key” requirement is a good thing to add, with an option for “accept all” for those of us who don’t care about avoiding having a key. Being able to permanently reject a certain key id would also be good, although it doesn’t fully mitigate the issue since a new key could be created to circumvent it. But por que no los dos?
As far as when he got the key back, it’s possible I’m misremembering or I thought the threat was over before y’all did. I thought I re-added it after I didn’t see y’all come back for a while but it might have been before that. In any case, it was never intended to stop anyone from capping the station. If that were my goal I could have given/taken keys to/from all 3 of you repeatedly. I’ve also never done that in a lot of other station battles so I don’t know why you’d think I would start now.
The fact that getting a key can stop station capping at all just seems really wrong to me. The use case it’s trying to stop can still be done with multiple characters, comes with risks and most likely isn’t even worth it, and even in the case where it’s good to do doesn’t seem all that overly powerful to me. This other case on the other hand feels way more problematic.
Maybe an “accept key” requirement is a good thing to add, with an option for “accept all” for those of us who don’t care about avoiding having a key. Being able to permanently reject a certain key id would also be good, although it doesn’t fully mitigate the issue since a new key could be created to circumvent it. But por que no los dos?
Okay, I guess he must not have removed it properly. But that doesn't address my main question: Why give back the key to a hostile player at all? Not trying to accuse you of anything, I'm genuinely curious as to what the thought process is.
tkos being cancelled when the dock timer starts should work.