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"Yeah...a little creepy."
Intended as an extreme example of the types of self restraints I employ every day out of self interest. My desire to not be branded nor put in tight living conditions with some guy named Bubba far outweigh my desire to impose my will upon another human being. Hence my moral behavior is purely selfish in nature.
When I was a Christian, I went to church, said prayers, did good deeds not because they were 'morally' right, because we've already seen that morals change with the times. But to gain God's approval and the approval of my fellow Christians. Purely selfish reasons.
I don't necessarily believe in karma, but I do believe in tit for tat. If I build up a reputation for doing good things like returning someones wallet unmolested, then I should expect good things in return, whether or not it is from the same person or not. In most cases, I would return the wallet as a gesture of good faith because someone earlier on, showed me kindness in some way. I see this as selfish because 1) I do not want to be indebted to anyone and 2) I may be in a situation where I need to call upon someone else's debt in the future, and 3) despite my claims otherwise, I really do like the sensation of having the 'warm fuzzies'
Intended as an extreme example of the types of self restraints I employ every day out of self interest. My desire to not be branded nor put in tight living conditions with some guy named Bubba far outweigh my desire to impose my will upon another human being. Hence my moral behavior is purely selfish in nature.
When I was a Christian, I went to church, said prayers, did good deeds not because they were 'morally' right, because we've already seen that morals change with the times. But to gain God's approval and the approval of my fellow Christians. Purely selfish reasons.
I don't necessarily believe in karma, but I do believe in tit for tat. If I build up a reputation for doing good things like returning someones wallet unmolested, then I should expect good things in return, whether or not it is from the same person or not. In most cases, I would return the wallet as a gesture of good faith because someone earlier on, showed me kindness in some way. I see this as selfish because 1) I do not want to be indebted to anyone and 2) I may be in a situation where I need to call upon someone else's debt in the future, and 3) despite my claims otherwise, I really do like the sensation of having the 'warm fuzzies'
Leber, you return the wallet for some "selfish" reason, even if it is just the good feeling. That was my point... it takes effort to return a wallet, even if it's not too much on a big scale, and you would not expend that effort if there wasn't some return. It sounds like for you the return is "that happy feeling," of knowing you've followed your personal moral code. I think, like most people, you're undervaluing the power of that feeling... it sure seems to be the motivation for a lot of kind actions.
And FistOfRage... I wasn't saying that "All Christians are immoral" or "All atheists are moral." I think those arguments (or their reverses) get thrown around way too much. I know plenty of Christians who act morally because they've learned it's the "right thing to do." I was just making the counter argument to "Atheists are immoral because they aren't afraid of a higher power." There are definitely too many people in this world who (a) Don't worry about a higher power, or the consequences they may believe in, or (b) Don't believe in such a power. Both these groups (evil religious people and atheists) will, back to my point a few posts ago, undervalue the reward of doing a good deed, and instead reap the benefits of personal, material gain. They hurt the image of both sides, but I think it's a lot easier to justify group B's actions as a product of their atheist beliefs than it is to explain group A. It's a bit more complicated to say "Well they believe in their religion, but don't care about it to some extent, or don't think they'll be 'caught'" than it is to say "They're acting like an asshole cause they aren't worried about an afterlife." I think this is why atheists take a lot more heat for being immoral than religious people... without knowing the numbers of jerks in either party, it's a lot easier to recognize the atheist d-bag than the religious one.
And FistOfRage... I wasn't saying that "All Christians are immoral" or "All atheists are moral." I think those arguments (or their reverses) get thrown around way too much. I know plenty of Christians who act morally because they've learned it's the "right thing to do." I was just making the counter argument to "Atheists are immoral because they aren't afraid of a higher power." There are definitely too many people in this world who (a) Don't worry about a higher power, or the consequences they may believe in, or (b) Don't believe in such a power. Both these groups (evil religious people and atheists) will, back to my point a few posts ago, undervalue the reward of doing a good deed, and instead reap the benefits of personal, material gain. They hurt the image of both sides, but I think it's a lot easier to justify group B's actions as a product of their atheist beliefs than it is to explain group A. It's a bit more complicated to say "Well they believe in their religion, but don't care about it to some extent, or don't think they'll be 'caught'" than it is to say "They're acting like an asshole cause they aren't worried about an afterlife." I think this is why atheists take a lot more heat for being immoral than religious people... without knowing the numbers of jerks in either party, it's a lot easier to recognize the atheist d-bag than the religious one.
It is also selfless to pass the opportunity to have more physical (monetary) gain and return the object to the original owner for a mental gain of doing the "right thing". The example by Leber notes a more selfless act than a selfish act since a mental gain of "greater well being" can be viewed as less than a physical gain of possession. Mental existence cannot exist without physical existence, which can be argued that the physical is worth more then the mental in some respects.
Smittens,
My apologies, I wasn't trying to compare the two groups in that way. I was trying to express my belief that regardless of ones frame of reference, that we act morally out of self or group interest. I don't personally believe in selfless acts. If I were to throw myself on a grenade, it would be to protect a group that I value more than my own life (likely due to intense military indoctrination and training).
I think being 'moral' is a natural human tendency, because it is selfish. Selfishness is not wrong or evil, it is a necessary part of us. I also think that the underlying problem that you elaborated on is due to elitist or 'enlightened' thinking on all sides. Ie. The Christians have 'seen the light' and the Atheists are all godless heathens trying to destroy the fabric of society. The Atheists have been 'enlightened' by Darwinian thinking and see the Christians as a bunch of nut cases bogged down in superstition. In both cases each group identifies itself as superior. It is this same superiority complex that I believe has alienated much of the west and particularly the US from other cultures. But thats another topic ;-)
On the whole both groups (and any other group you want to toss into the mix) tend to act morally and immorally based on their social or group norms. My argument is that they do so for the advancement of themselves, their group or their ideology. Thus they act selfishly.
My apologies, I wasn't trying to compare the two groups in that way. I was trying to express my belief that regardless of ones frame of reference, that we act morally out of self or group interest. I don't personally believe in selfless acts. If I were to throw myself on a grenade, it would be to protect a group that I value more than my own life (likely due to intense military indoctrination and training).
I think being 'moral' is a natural human tendency, because it is selfish. Selfishness is not wrong or evil, it is a necessary part of us. I also think that the underlying problem that you elaborated on is due to elitist or 'enlightened' thinking on all sides. Ie. The Christians have 'seen the light' and the Atheists are all godless heathens trying to destroy the fabric of society. The Atheists have been 'enlightened' by Darwinian thinking and see the Christians as a bunch of nut cases bogged down in superstition. In both cases each group identifies itself as superior. It is this same superiority complex that I believe has alienated much of the west and particularly the US from other cultures. But thats another topic ;-)
On the whole both groups (and any other group you want to toss into the mix) tend to act morally and immorally based on their social or group norms. My argument is that they do so for the advancement of themselves, their group or their ideology. Thus they act selfishly.
I didn't think you were comparing the groups, I just wanted to clarify my position because it looked like you might have misunderstood. But I think we're both getting at the same thing, that all actions are done for selfish reasons even if they on the surface appear selfless (and that's not to say we're all 'evil')
Exactly! :)
Yup. About the only thing to recommend humans over other animals in this regard is that we're able to act now in anticipation of a reward in the distant future (or perhaps never). Maybe this is unique to us, or maybe the dolphins are even more patiently waiting us out...
The dolphins will be extinct by the time we're done with them.
Did someone say dolphins?
