Sadly, no. It's not that I want people to starve to death, well okay, maybe some people, but not total strangers. It's just that I think you have the right to fail as miserably as you will let yourself, to take from those who work to give to those who won't, denies one the right to succeed as much as they can and the other to fail as much as they will allow themselves.

I understand what you're saying, no hands, but only because I agree with your position. If I didn't know already what you meant by that, I don't think I could possibly untangle those words.

It all boils down to this: You reap what you sow. Rewarding failure breeds more failure.

This is an interesting thread.

There's an issue though that hasn't really been looked at yet. The automakers provide a large portion of the jobs in Michigan which currently has the worst economy of any state in the United States. Now you're talking about giving these automakers the axe, leaving a drastically larger portion of people unemployed. The result of this on top of the already struggling economy would create unemployment rates in Michigan that would rival if not surpass those of the great depression.

Now I realize that the solution is not just to throw money at the problem. A bailout does nothing if they continue on the same course that they've been headed. But I think that the consequences of not offering some aid to the American auto industry will be much more severe than a lot of people realize.

Ghost, I think you've got cause and effect mixed up. It could well be that the UAW is contributing to this bad economy, yet provides a lot of jobs because to work for those companies you have to join the union. You're exactly right though about it does no good unless there's a change in course. The biggest way the union is bleeding the auto companies dry is, at least in GM's case, that GM is paying more in benefits to people who no longer work there than they are to people who still do work there. That doesn't work. Sure, maybe GM was dumb to agree to such a thing, but now that we see it's unsustainable, it needs to end. When GM and Toyota can sell the same amount of cars in a year, but GM "needs" a bailout and Toyota doesn't, it's time to rewrite the business model to more closely match that of Toyota.

I think offering this aid to the U.S. auto industry will have more severe consequences than you realize. This is a form of natural selection. If a company can't compete, it shouldn't stay around. We cannot afford to reward failure.

PC, is that why you're rooting for Palin for 2012? She failed (quite obviously), why would you reward that by rooting for her again?

But I think that the consequences of not offering some aid to the American auto industry will be much more severe than a lot of people realize.

Are you kidding? I'm counting on it--let Michigan burn. Literally.

toshiro, the Republican Party failed when it nominated a Democrat like McCain. Palin was 100% win, drawing larger crowds than either presidential candidate. She was the only conservative on the ticket. I'm thinking my dream ticket for 2012 might be Jindal/Palin.

But she failed, did she not? By natural selection, she should not be rewarded for failing, right?

Perhaps PC's point is that she should not be supported by a forced contribution in contravention of otherwise prevaling "market" forces.

"But I think that the consequences of not offering some aid to the American auto industry will be much more severe than a lot of people realize.

Are you kidding? I'm counting on it--let Michigan burn. Literally."

At this point let it all burn, theirs too many people on this planet already. Even if they get this bailout, I don't see them ever recovering, the whole economy, and with it, the country is headed for collapse, and I don't see much chance of it being avoided. Id rather it happen when I'm not getting any younger, and I'd rather things go to hell while I'm still somewhat healthy.

OK, Look...

I'll bring the family down, we'll set up a compound in an easily-defensible position with access to clean water, and begin hoarding firearms, ammunition, and canned goods.

I'll bring extra can openers.

Edit: I don't think it'll get THAT bad, but if it really does, keep an eye out for me.

Capitalism's overrated anyways.

Yay for easily-defensible positions. We have mountains, what's yours? ;)

Maybe I'll just head over to Switzerland, tosh. Surprise the hell outta you. I hear Geneva is clean, has excellent schools, and most of the folks speak English, and failing that, someone probably speaks Spanish, so I at least have a chance of communication.

"I'll bring the family down, we'll set up a compound in an easily-defensible position with access to clean water, and begin hoarding firearms, ammunition, and canned goods."

You're supposed to start hoarding when prices drop as the money supply implodes, then as the gov't tries to print it's way out of the problem, you can off what you don't need at the hyper inflated prices. Things that are only imported and in short supply become of extreme value, especially things you use once and are done.

"Yay for easily-defensible positions. We have mountains, what's yours? ;)"

Half mile driveway, that's the only vehicle passable path to a house with real stone walls. I still need to stock up on razor wire though.

Half mile driveway, that's the only vehicle passable path to a house with real stone walls. I still need to stock up on razor wire though.

Why bother? It's be a lot cheaper to just get a trowel, some mortar, and set a lot of old, shattered Coke bottle-glass into the top of the wall.

Harder for someone to see before they try to climb over, too ;)

nah the 6 foot tall stack of firewood that encircles most of the hose works great cause i can place the entanglement at the bottom so anybody hopping down gets caught in it. As for making it hard to see, rust oleum rusty metal primer is a dark brown/red.

Though I already do have stocked up all the stone and morter needed to cover over all the window openings and unneeded doorways. Most of that stuff is iron rock too.

You had better hurry then, LeberMac, because I'm not too keen on staying here. The grass is always greener, that sort of thing.
If you do come here while I'm still here, though, I'd be happy to show you around :)

And what on earth is iron rock? It can't be iron ore, that'd be silly and a waste of resources. Oh... nevermind.

Or you could hire a Chinese guy to build you a wall, and if anyone attacks you can drop a vat os sweet and sour pork on their heads.

Or you could hire a Chinese guy to build you a wall...

No no, don't do that. They attract Mongol Hordes.