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THWACK!
That was the sound of my head hitting the table.
You're right. I now see where I made a serious bungle in my earlier arguments. I never should have included the maintenance of freedom in the opening statement. I've even supported the maintenance of freedom by firearms in the same paragraph! Twice! This is embarrassing. No wonder I left you doubting my ability to think logically, the contents of my arguments didn't match up with the openings. We've been arguing two separate though closely related things. Call me an idiot a few times, I deserve it. Heck, go all out, get that stress out of your system :)
Re-reading what we've stated, I'm changing my opening statement, and condensing it as far as I am able to. I considered directly editing my posts, but doing that would confuse anyone who comes along later and reads what we've been doing. Maintenance of freedom has been dropped. The arguments themselves are now valid with the following: Freedom is not created at the point of a gun, but by the mind behind it, as a gun without the will to use it is useless.
That was the sound of my head hitting the table.
You're right. I now see where I made a serious bungle in my earlier arguments. I never should have included the maintenance of freedom in the opening statement. I've even supported the maintenance of freedom by firearms in the same paragraph! Twice! This is embarrassing. No wonder I left you doubting my ability to think logically, the contents of my arguments didn't match up with the openings. We've been arguing two separate though closely related things. Call me an idiot a few times, I deserve it. Heck, go all out, get that stress out of your system :)
Re-reading what we've stated, I'm changing my opening statement, and condensing it as far as I am able to. I considered directly editing my posts, but doing that would confuse anyone who comes along later and reads what we've been doing. Maintenance of freedom has been dropped. The arguments themselves are now valid with the following: Freedom is not created at the point of a gun, but by the mind behind it, as a gun without the will to use it is useless.
How can Freedom be created by the mind behind the force, IRS, when the statement "a mind possessing the will to use force is useless without the means to apply it" is equally true?
Your point, that one must be a sentient being capable of cognizing the ideal of Freedom before being able to act in pursuit thereof, is easily conceded without lessening the truth of the statement that, in a world of mortal beings, Freedom is created and maintained at the point of a gun.
You're conflating conceptualization and creation. Cogito ergo sum aside, the two are very different things--if wishes were horses, then beggars could ride.
Your point, that one must be a sentient being capable of cognizing the ideal of Freedom before being able to act in pursuit thereof, is easily conceded without lessening the truth of the statement that, in a world of mortal beings, Freedom is created and maintained at the point of a gun.
You're conflating conceptualization and creation. Cogito ergo sum aside, the two are very different things--if wishes were horses, then beggars could ride.
First off, that picture looks more like Mark Twain than Albert Einstein. I'm pretty sure that if Mark Twain could not defeat Godzilla physically, he would deliver a withering witty riposte that would send the poor radioactive reptile off to sulk under the waves again.
We're really talking about Liberty, not Freedom.
Oh, and I agree with Lecter and Butters (Prof. Chaos): Freedom ("Liberty") is only as good as your ability to prevent others from impinging on your freedom. You can imagine yourself free, but you'll be only a sort of modern-day "Walter Mitty". This goes for nation-states just as well as it goes for individual freedom.
"Do what you want 'cause a pirate is FREE, you are a pirate!"
We're really talking about Liberty, not Freedom.
Oh, and I agree with Lecter and Butters (Prof. Chaos): Freedom ("Liberty") is only as good as your ability to prevent others from impinging on your freedom. You can imagine yourself free, but you'll be only a sort of modern-day "Walter Mitty". This goes for nation-states just as well as it goes for individual freedom.
"Do what you want 'cause a pirate is FREE, you are a pirate!"
Haha, awesome Leber, we saw the same thing in the picture but your remark about a "witty reposte" was much better. And as usual, Lecter, you made exactly my point, but much better and conciser (I made that word up, it means more concise). I'll just state it again for IRS's sake:
"How can Freedom be created by the mind behind the force, IRS, when the statement "a mind possessing the will to use force is useless without the means to apply it" is equally true?"
I'm glad you two finally came back to this debate, it was getting rather frustrating being alone on the rational side....
"How can Freedom be created by the mind behind the force, IRS, when the statement "a mind possessing the will to use force is useless without the means to apply it" is equally true?"
I'm glad you two finally came back to this debate, it was getting rather frustrating being alone on the rational side....
And now, something completely different.
Oh, and Lecter, that made me laugh out loud even before I realized the guy falling was doing jazz-hands.
Well, I certainly got what I asked for. I concur, and shall slink away into the shadows. I'll get you next time, pirates, NEXT TIME!
What's scary is that, even though there are hundreds of ninjas in that picture, you can only see 10 of them.
Actually, you can't see any of them.
The ten figures are merely a diversionary illusion.
The ten figures are merely a diversionary illusion.
Yeah, a real ninja wouldn't let himself get trampled by his fellow ninjas.
