K...so, tried to read the backstory(mostly the sections with the pictures) and found out about how the Itans used meditation, internal energy, etc....
Then read the part about the hand to hand combat between the serco Karun(yay) and the itani Oernon(midget noob with "abstract" powerups).
So, Oernon kicked Karun's ass using his internal energy and martial arts...
But why??....
surfing the net, i came across this interesting video....what would really happen in a real fight bettween a master in internal energy vs a master in MMA(mixed martial arts)...I know Karun wasnt an MMA master, but still he was literally a beast...
Here be ze site

http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1180196125/Kiai_Master_Bets_5000_Bucks_No_MMA_Fighter_Can_Beat_Him

Youll find that the fight in the video is similar to the fight in the story.
So, watch the video, replies appreciated...
For more info on the Oernon vs Karun fight read section XI of the backstory.

karun use brute force and did not practice martial arts
he just had faster perception and most of his bones were replaced with lightweight alloys

Oernon on the other had DID practice martial arts.

I can't see the fight because of the plugin… realplayer sucks. Can you tell me what happens? I'm interested to know.

and yet the midget without surprising physical build up dodged his blows and could stop them with 1 hand. And the final blow was said to not have made contact...
And martial arts dont make someone invincible. Its like Oernon had god-mode on or something....

Seraph, in the video an old Kiai master (i guess thats some sort of internal energy based martial art), wagers 5000 that he can beat any MMA(mixed martial artist). he claims to have a 200-0 record of victories. In the video you first see him training with his students, he doesnt even touch them, he just kinda waves his hands in a kungfuish fashion and their opponents seem to be hit my an invicible force.
But when he fights the MMA master, its a diff story cuz the MMA guy beats the living shizza out of him.

for those of you who cant see because of the plugin....
try youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

errr and i don think the devs are going to change this

oh and dude its a video game backstory jeez it aint what would happen in RL

The 'Kiai Master' is using a form of hypnosis on his 'willing' students. They want something to happen to them, so it does. Same type of thing you would see at a hypnotist's comedy show.

If you are fighting the right opponent, sure it could work. But not everyone is susceptible to mind tricks.

These videos are in the same vein. I believe Derren Brown is actually able to trick people in the ways portrayed, the human mind is a strange thing.

Derren Brown- Russian Scam
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hwthqRJ1Khg

Derren Brown- Russian Scam (explained)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ybmOlQRuaYM

[EDIT]Forgot to post this one where he actually makes people fall.
Derren Brown "instant conversion" part 1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2Sq-YUdq1OI
[/EDIT]

Thanks for the extra link. I'd actually seen that video before, but didn't realize that was why the older guy got beaten so badly. Huh.

I really don't know about those so-called "energy" arts. I actually studied Aikido for about two and a half years, and it can sometimes look very mystical with how some of the movements work. The thing about those mystical moves though is that it all has, ultimately, a physiological underpinning. And that underpinning is gravity, not a theoretical "force." It's amazing how far you can take that rule and stretch it, but you can only stretch it. You can never break it.

So when I see someone proposing to fight another guy hand-to-hand from twenty feet away, I get really sceptical. It's possible to make them fall or spin without touching them, but that's because you're close by and you're influencing his choice of direction (I punch this way, he avoids that way. Trips, falls, etc. Look! Energy!)

Even if these masters can do it to their students, it may be that the students actually gain an inherent vulnerability to the art by studying it. If there is a force like they propose it, that's the only thing I think is possible. Because I've seen this with other teacher like this and it's the same pattern. Master does it to students, but master can't do it to anyone else. The force might be there and it's just a weakness as well as a strength. On the other hand, there might be no "force" at all and they're all just deluded. But either way, I'd rather make physical contact with a guy than rely on a different kind of energy other than good-old Kinetic. Maybe that's American of me, but I'd be interested to know what that master thought after he was beaten so badly.

Interesting read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiai

Lord spidey, yep, im aware the devs wont change the backstory, just kinda pointing out that they were unfair woth the serco.
im not trying to make a big fuzz over it, and it wasnt really my intention to try to compare it with real life.

Seraph, to shorten what you said...You cant get beaten by it if you dont believe in it...that right?

Not really. You may not believe in gravity. That doesn't mean you won't fall off a cliff. If you're talking about things like "forces" or "energies" or whatever, sure, if you believe in it, you may be affected, and the reverse might also be true. But how do you define a "force" or an "energy?" Gravity is a force, and Kinetic energy is obviously a kind of energy. Those don't depend on whether you believe in them or not. So which energies/forces are dependent, and how do we know that they're dependent?

To get really wonky, if science isn't a sure-fire way of knowing things absolutely (though it may be pretty damn close)—which energies/forces do we choose to believe are dependent on our belief? And why do we choose them over others?

;D That'll mess with your head for awhile.

I'm not a scientist, so all I can really say (and would want to say) is that some forms of energy and forces are useful for certain tasks, and others not so much. Maybe you can beat a guy in a fight with psychology (or "Ki")—it certainly helps (make yourself look more intimidating, for example—that's why martial artists yell, shout and move fancily when they fight). But I'd trust the real art of it (gravity and kinetics) rather than just the theater of it (psychology). The trick is not to be fooled by your own illusion, which is what some of these "masters" seem to have done.

indeed...
but in this case, the old guy didnt even made contact. Basically force is like a transfer of energy. But in order for it to be transferred, there has to be contact. You cant expect something to move if you dont apply force to it.

Itani mind powers are indeed overrated. They can't even keep their coffee mugs warm!

Shadoen: We've projected shields over frigates with our minds.
At this point, yer mind should say "This is a work of fiction".
So why, exactly, can't Oernon use mind abilities to *hit* someone?

Itani can use the energy focus, a special device to draw up a physical force from their internal energy. That being said, did Oernon really not actually hit Karun with the final blow? Did he indeed use a hidden energy focus? If so, then the Serco's accusation that he had a concealed weapon would have been true. Perhaps that last detail was simply a Serco lie aimed to make it seem like Oernon was cheating. After all, why would Oernon bring such a thing when he could already match Karun without one? Or could he? Was he indeed using a hidden energy focus to block Karun's blows the entire fight? Perhaps for Oernon such things as a physical energy focus were not necessary, perhaps he could call up the kinetic force from internal energy simply using his own body. In that case, considering that Karun's entire body was modified with alloys and muscle enhancements and what not, such a method would seem fair in comparison. If indeed that's truly what happened. Maybe Oernon just hit Karun really hard.

I think the point of that fight is that things were not according to plan. There was enough mysterious cases that you can argue any of the major factions were responsible for the outcome. Even the UIT could have been behind it all.

Please note that the current version of the backstory is the Itani view of events.

Yep and indeed and verily to most points made in here. Just thought I'd point out, in the vein of "this is a work of fiction", but still with the intention of motivating Oernon's skill within the context of the VO canon, that the abilities of the Itani monks have been developed over the course of more than a thousand years, and that this battle take place more than two thousand years into the future.

So. if we assume Kiai mastery, internal energy and similar disciplines to be anything more than showmanship, hypnotism, skillful applications of normal martial arts or direct bullshit (and in my ten years of varying degrees of involvement in martial arts and full-contact fighting, I've never seen or heard anything that suggests that what that Kiai master does to his students in the video is even remotely possible), just imagine how powerful such abilities would be after an additional thousand years of development, with the help of the technology of the fifth millennium, in people with extended lifespans, people who have much more time than just the ordinary 80-years-or-so to develop those abilities...

The backstory is a work of fiction, and was driven primarily based on what I thought might make an interesting read and an interesting basis for the game nations. On a broader level, the point of science fiction is usually not to make statements about what *is*, but rather what could be. The backstory is not intended to be "real" (how can it be, 2000 years in the future?), or have strict comparisons to reality, the whole idea was to try and postulate where we could go and how we might evolve.. as a species, as societies, as cultures. Whether one considers it far-fetched or not is.. up to the reader, and that's totally fair. But it remains the background for our game.

What one writes is often a reflection of one's own history, and I've been training off and on in martial arts (both internal and external) since I was about 11. That's not to say I understand anything at all, or am any good at them :). But simply to point out influences in the writing and my mindset. I can't comment on the japanese guy flipping people over from afar, or pretending to.. or whatever. I've never heard of / seen anything like that.

I find that debates about internal and external martial styles are kind of.. pointless. I've seen substantial merits to both, for completely different reasons (but, that's me, to each their own). It only takes a few of years of intense training to create an external martial artist (say, mui thai) who can be devastating in physical combat. Conversely, many "internal" styles have timelines more in the 30-50 year range before you have a chance of actually "getting" it. Plus, the requirements are much different.. in terms of evolving your perspective, of who and what you are, relaxing and letting go of things that don't really matter.. which (for some of us, myself included) can actually be harder than forcing ourselves to physically kick a palm tree every day. On the upside, the benefits of internal training go on much longer, well after one passes a physical peak, and are healthful in many ways.

My interest in the storyline was mostly to postulate what might happen if someone were able to train for 500 years instead of 50. To kind of.. juxtapose two different possible forms of human evolution, and a mix of both (the UIT). In the "fight" between Oernon and Karun, it can give the impression that one is superior.. but I was specifically ambiguous in a number of critical areas. The backstory is a truthful, but Itani-written, interpretation of events, based on what the Itani knew. The paragraph following the "fight", describing political problems within the Serco Triumvirate that "may" also have contributed to Karun's downfall should not be ignored.

Events in our current history are not always as simple as they appear, and we are sometimes lucky enough to find this out.. 50 years later. I wrote this "future history" with that idea in mind. It doesn't change the fact that yes, Oernon was certainly a badass, perhaps moreso than some people find realistic (and yet, we're all fine with Obi-wan?), but that doesn't mean Karun went down as easily as it seemed.

/me starts putting 2 & 2 together

Karun was having political troubles with the other members of the Dominion's leadership, the two other members of the Triumvirate. They didn't like how if they lost they would have to agree to a cease-fire, and if they won the Itani surrendering their military edge painted the Serco's foe in far to noble a light considering the past atrocities of Akan.

And in the Dominion, disputes and 'political troubles' are usually solved when somebody gets killed.

If any other Serco could match Karun for skill, they are not open about it. And even if someone could be found to challenge Karun, if they lost it would be an enormous embarrassment and a sign of weakness on their part.

Succeeding in killing Karun has its risks as well; he is well-liked by the general populace of the Dominion; a death at the hands of men would leave Karun a martyr, and millions would raise the torch against the Triumvirate in his name if he was to be killed.

So, instead, why not let Karun and Oernon go and have their little bout? Why not assassinate Karun and frame Oernon or the Akaneese? Their political rival gets eliminated, and the Dominion as a whole retaliates with tenfold fury against the Itani seeking revenge.

The only matter is how to kill Karun. Weapons, in the traditional sense, are not allowed, but the Serco make themselves to be weapons. Just infect Karun with a nasty virus, sabotage a critical implant, manipulate his nannies, or some-such at the right moment, and nobody would be the wiser.

And, of course, smuggle actual weapons aboard to silence Oernon before he can prove his innocence. After all, the attention to prevent people from carrying weapons is more important for those on the mat, after all.

It's so simple, I can't believe I didn't see it before. Karun was killed by his own.

As a practitioner of martial arts of all types since about age 9, I can tell you that no, you cannot use "energy" to damage someone without touching them. But you make it seem as though you did. Pressure points and nerve endings are funny things...

"Energy" is a useful mental concept that allows the mind to achieve better control of what you want your muscles to do, nothing more. It's a metaphor, or a means to an end. I will say, though, that the human body is capable of much more than most people know.

Oh, and Karun was a pansy. Old man Oernon kicked his ass.