I'm moving discussion of national logos and threads here after threadjacking my own topic in General to talk about them. :P

Anyhow, I have a Serco flag:



...and the UIT standard:



...but I have no idea about what to put into an Itani flag, as their culture is less, shall we say, receptive to aspiring Serco artists designing their articles of state. The design I made initially:



was deemed (rightly) to be utterly nonrepresentative of their national character. Here's an archive of posts in the other thread, which have now been deleted.

======Shapenaji Wrote: ================
Wait wait, itani's are buddhists... what's with the yin-yang? That's more of a serco symbol.
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======ctishman Wrote: ================
Huh? Oh, heh. I never noticed that it looked like a yin-yang. I suppose the symbol is Serco-ish, representing the balance between flesh and machine. Interesting idea.

If I don't put that in the center, what should go there? It looks awfully bare with just the blue.
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======jexkerome Wrote: ================
I don't know... I just don't like it that much. Too... bland and not enough Itani, but I can't put my finger on it.
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======yodaofborg Wrote: ================
I know what its missing, some kinda motto, or logo, like uhum "recedo inclino semper" or "pullus R nos" or, i dunno, you get my point, heh
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======LeberMac Wrote: ================
What's it a logo FOR? Vendetta?
If so I think it's crap. Nothing about it says "Kickass PvP Combat" or "Space" or "MMORPG". I don't get any yin-yang out of it either.

Okay, it's not CRAP, but it looks like some generic line art you get out of the "100,000,000 Images CD collections, ALL on 38 DVD's!"
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======PhaserLight Wrote: ================
Put a symbolic silhoutte that denotes "Itani" (how about one of the pictograms? Isn't there one for Itani? Or something out of the backstory, or just a Valk) and you're in buisiness.

I don't think it's half bad.
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======ctishman Wrote: ================
Leber: I'm trying to come up with a flag for the Itani nation - something that represents the national character.

Unfortunately, every Itani I've talked to has said that they have no national character to represent. I'm Serco, and am not in any position to contradict that, nor to understand the culture as a true Itani would.

Thus, I'd like to get an idea of how Itani see themselves. If you want to, give me three or four adjectives that describe the nation.

These should be positive adjectives, as we're building a symbol for the nation as it would like to be seen.

For example, the way I describe the Serco:
Proud
Competitive
Expansionist

The UIT:
Divided/United (paradoxical?)
Influential
Modern

And the Itani:
Wise
Peaceful
Calm

When I get home, I'll look up the GTS for Itani and put it in there somewhere.
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======LeberMac Wrote: ================
OK ctishman, then how about posting all three flags at once, so we can see them in relation to each other?

I would say that the Itani national character would be: zen-like stoic discipline combined with innovative technological ability. Any "logo" should be simple at first sight, yet complex when you study it further. Maybe something utilizing a fractal pattern or something that uses negative space like the arrow in the FedEx logo or the "11" in the Big Ten College Football conference logo.

It should be mainly blue without any yellow/gold or red anywhere in it. I'm thinking flowing designs would work well, nothing sharp or aggressive. However it should be strong and stable, so the logo should have "weight". For some reason I would tend toward circular or spherical designs, but I have no basis for that except that it "feels" right.
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======Celkan Wrote: ================
Neither Itani nor Serco have a specific pictogram associated... the UIT were originally denoted with the pictograms "neutral" and "nation".
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that uit thing reminds me of ubuntu, or that picture of a whole bunch of snakes all eating eachother.

I forgot to mention that each hand in that logo represents a founding corporation of the UIT. Also note that six is one corp more than their official history depicts...

The serco flag looks nice, but the holding hands for the UIT flag just doesn't capture the naitional ideal. The yellow hexagon is good, but the holding of hands seems so...Itani. Try keeping three things in balance that more accurately reflect the UIT ideal (i.e. commerce, power, and prosperity). As for the Itani flag I think you should work with more organic shapes, you know...curves, circles, and the like. A cyan glow around a central symbol would be nice.

Okay, organic shapes. I can definitely do that. You're certainly right about that, as it is most decidedly represented in everything else they design. God knows what I was thinking with all those straight edges.

As for the UIT thing, that posture is hands shaking, as if making a deal, rather than hands holding. Oh wait, it's the same gesture. D'oh. :)

The UT one is kinda silly. How about looking at some strong corporate brands in present-day earth and see what THEY look like?

Dig the Serco one, already spoken about the Itani one, totally HATE the Union one. I think if any of the national heraldry should resemble the ones of our own past (with a variety of symbols in them) it would be the Union one.

Something along the lines of old medieval heraldry mixed with the monolithic solid designs of communist propagand oughta do it, reflecting both the hopes and ideals of the Union and the cold, unmoving, distant strength of the Corps.

For the itani one... how about something with a micro pattern?

Like those really cool ties... you know?

I think the serco one looks too symetric. lol. What would happen if you took the top half and formed it into a sharp delta?

UIT one looks... for lack of a better word... gay. Try seeing where turning down the color gets you - less yellow more gold.

now for the itanis, you need more abstraction... sharp edges and geometric balance = bad. Fluid curves, glowing/fading tones = good.

I actually like the Itani one the best, the UIT one needs some work (organic == good, I totally agree) and the Serco one does the trick but that's about it. no idea on how to improve it though, it just might grow on me. =)

good work though!

The serco emblem would disappear on a darker background, although that doesn't have to be bad. Cunjo might have a point, although I can't say I understand exactly what he means by 'shaping the upper half into a sharp delta' (paraphrased a little).
Maybe it's a bit too 'flimsy'. Reduce the number of rays and make it an odd number, perhaps (5 or something).

The UIT, however, is indeed a bit odd and looks rather like a symbol for a welfare association than for a conglomerate of corporations. The oroboros approach is interesting, though... maybe make it not hands, but, I dunno, symbols for commercial power or something, that intertwine.

The Itani symbol is very complex. For quick identification, the blue rhombic shape would already suffice. Maybe make two versions: one that's simplified, or ships, like aircraft ID, and one that's more complex for uniforms or the like.

As for organic shapes: Anyone can do organic. It's far too easy IMO to just create a blob and call it a day. Also, they are harder to draw, and you don't want your kids (of the in-game population, think RP) drawing potato-shaped blue blobs and be proud of them.

In one word: simplify.

Disclaimer: All opinions expressed in this post are of purely personal nature and do not claim to be 'better' than others.

This is more my idea of a Serco logo:

totaly! i like it!

Oy. Sorry I didn't get another version done. I worked 10 hours yesterday and was to tired to do anything but watch two episodes of Firefly with my roommate and go to bed.

given modern day flags, i'd expect the UIT flag to be a set of colored bars (probably 3, perhaps Red, Gold, and Blue) representing their place between the Itani and Serco phylosophicaly) with no other markings.

The Serco flag could just be the red starburst on a solid background (i'd stay away from a while background because the allusion to Japan doesn't seem to fit well enough). alternatively it could be the starburst on a neutral background (say a middle grey) with a smaller starburst orbiting the centeral one for each serco occupied system (this alludes to the American flag's addition of a new star for every new state)

For the Itani flag, i'd go with the diamond symbol on either a blue or green background. I think the symbol is itself complex enough to be an entire flag. Also the Yin-yang-ishness of it is subtel enough that i don't finde it in conflict with the Itani phylosopfy (after all balance is an inposrtant part od buddisam, and the itani are portraied as a neo-buddist society)

here is what i mean:

http://homepage.mac.com/lord_q/PhotoAlbum2.html

I also threw together descriptions of what everything means in these flags.

I don't know that buddhism really advocates balance in the same way as the yin-yang, which I don't think I've ever seen in buddhist literature.. The yin-yang does not represent them. It IS a taoist symbol, however,

and while its possible to be a taoist and a buddhist, the apparently conflicting understandings of:

the world as just a hinderance to enlightenment (Buddhism),

vs the world as representing the natural way of being, and trying to become more, not less, in line with it. (Taoism)

While both philosophies contain wisdom, saying they're saying the same thing is, err... nope. The Sercans are more of a Taoist warrior culture, while the itani are more of a Buddhist intellectual culture.

As far as the allusion to Japan not working... I disagree, I think the Serco bear many resemblances to Japan during its imperial years.

Toshiro:

Sorry, kinda hard for me to describe a symbol with words... I think five points would be too few... maybe seven?
I guess what I was trying to say, was that the top half of the symbol should be different from the bottom... maybe just take the bottom half of that, and make it more rugged (fewer points, fanning down and out - with that many points, it looks too delicate), then put a single point or projection pointing up from it for the top half. Basically just to give it only one vertical axis of symmetry. I guess I'll have to do a rough sketch.

I like your idea for the UIT... something other than hands would be better.

EDIT (because I'ma really bad artist...):
Couldn't get it to look anything like the way I wanted it to look, but this is the closest I could come really... second a bit more refined, but perhaps too much?

Shapenaji,

i know that the yin-yan isn't a budist symbol, but the idea that two opposits need each other in order to exist is not in conflict with buddist philosophy (at least no any form of buddisam i'm fermiliar with). budisam teaches that the road to enlightenment requires balancing all opposing extreems.

as for my coment with the allusion to Japan, i was refering mainly to the fact that the Itani seem fairly japaniese-like and to liken the serco to Japan belitles the distinktivness of these 2 nations, in my opinion.

Cunjo,

those symbos reminde me of the Klingon ensignia from Star Trek. i'm not sure if that's good or bad, but it is definately an interesting adaptation to the original perposal.

Itani seem japanese?

I dunno about that, Tibetan perhaps, but not Japanese.

They don't have an honor complex, they don't have a history of ritualized war. The Serco on the other hand, do. They have a culture based on bushido-like rules.


As far as the opposites part, I think balance is a common concept in many religions.

I just happen to feel that the yin-yang should be represented in the Sercan flag, if at all.

The itani pursue a very un-Taoist lifestyle, constantly striving to gain knowledge. The sercos on the other hand try to be as formless and flexible as possible.

I don't think there's anything wrong with each of these cultures taking on different paths like this. In fact, to label the itani as the "intelligent" ones, and the sercos as the "brutes", is just not interesting to me.

I guess I would classify the obsessions in these cultures as heaven and earth respectively.

Lord Q:

Yea, I thought it kinda reminded me of that too, although it really doesn't comparitively resemble it in any way.... weird huh?

Just FYI, it was -NOT- intentionally inspired by or modeled after any existing insignia.