Well, I got a chance to fight UncleDave's prom today.

Its interesting, my FA-mode fighting has an effect.

It seems that the best way to fight against the AGT+flares is to get in as close as possible ( < 30m) and just go all out.

What's tough is keeping them inside this distance.

It definitely seems possible. But double-teaming the prom is out of the question, the more fighters that attack a prom, the more powerful the prom will become (the probability of hitting any fighter increases as more fighters swarm at that range, and if you hit one, the splash will probably hit the other).

I didn't win, but its very much an all or nothing attack. More to come.

Just stay at long range, the proms can't dodge any more.

oh they can.. u just have to increase your alertness.. its less of a walk in the park.

M. Duncan

You just caught onto the <30m thing?
Heh.

ok, proms can't dodge better than all other ship now.

Well, some people might not realize it, but the prom isn't a fighter class. ;)

My prom strategy:

Stay about 150-200 out (controlling your distance) and circle-strafe around the prom. Against energy weapons, roll and strafe up, breaking out of your circle strafe, to dodge. Against rockets, depending on if they lead you or not, either continue to circle strafe (sometimes holding backwards for a few moments helps if you continue to cirlce strafe in the same direction) or switch circle strafing directions until the rocket passes. Simple, but it works. Also, it's a great way to practice manually dodging, as opposed to using a strafe-roll or auto-dodge bind.

That's stupid.

Anyone can backstrafe, you might keep a good distance but itll take you the best part of an hour to KILL the prom from there.

And yes, the proms can still dodge pretty well, but at less than 120m you will have serious trouble dodging.

Doubleteaming the prom is a mistake. The prom can then CHOOSE its target and can turn fast enough to make sure that neither of the aggressors can get within the "safe zone" of 30m.

Distance management is important. If you catch the prom up close and personal by surprise, and have a reasonable aim, you can knock off 10-30% before the prom knows what's going on. You can also charge THROUGH rockets fired at you, taking only minimal damage from your aft, due to the new safety fuse. And if you get to the magic distance with a ragnarok or aggresso and can stay there, you can just tank the prom to death with twin gatlings or whatever you have on board.

I'll give one piece of advice to all prom users, if you manage to hit with a rocket, then for crying out loud follow it up. I have let targets go way too many times by just switching to gatling and praying for a few hits when I could just rip them to shreds with all the weapons on board while they're stunned.

Okie doke... my 2cu... I'm Seta of the Ralel Clan...
(and I *was* asked for my opinion last night, but didn't get to offer it). From my Com log:
"[03/18/05 00:13:13] 00ff00[tramshed] ask seta"

The Prom is a "tank"... plain and simple. With this last nerf, I would say it is pretty much perfect... (even though the loss of thrust and roll torque now makes it lag behind maintaining a bead on the light fighters at a "vulnerable" distance). There is "parity" now... and light fighters can still take it apart (and have). The difference is what this thread is about... a new tactic. And the new tactic takes a bit of time... there will still be no "splash-n-dash" 10-sec kills on a Prom. But I personally think that is appropriate, given it's stature. It's a "heavy".

What concerns me more, now, is something that also occured last night... namely, the discussion leading to nerfing the AGT. After running from a 2v1 situation in B-8, this pilot (a [BL] pirate) proceeded to complain about the AGT... saying "don't you get bored with not aiming?"... Personally, I think it goes very well with the Prom as a platform (and just about any other ship that can carry it - this *same* pirate came back later with a pirate buddy, both in Moths - one loaded with the AGT, and they took my Prom apart [just about the most fun I've had] in a 2v1 situation... they teamed very well). The "tank" moniker fits, and an appropriate analogy is the ancient M1A1 Abrams battle tank. The upgrade to the M1A2 provided the SEP upgrade to the weapons package (just like the AGT). It was still vulnerable... but it was also lethal.

Other pirates, like [BL]Shape and [BL]Martin.mac.au, have handed me my hat in the Prom flying "lights". The nice thing is that I, at least, got to play some too. Some other really big fun I've had was chasing [BL]Shape around B-8... in fact, he lead <B>FOUR</B> of us (two in Proms) all around the sector... timing his short volleys very well... the point here is that until we started working as a *team* against him... we were just grouped and following him like a pack of stoopid dogs... (that's another story, but we never did kill him... he met his own EET [Emergency Egress Teleport] by killing one of the chasers and getting hit by the splash damage)... but he <I>never</I> just "gave up" complaining about the differing loadouts chasing him.

When looking at the big picture - and considering "tactics" in general - I'm a bit concerned when a [BL] pirate runs from a 2v1 situation (*clears throat* - isn't this "Grey Space" with "Pirate Rules"?) complaining about weapon loadouts... then comes back with an "über" loadout... and has "fun" nuking the loadout he was complaining about? I think learning new tactics in this game is what it is all about... teaming is (and should be) the new wave... let's have a go at it, and in the end have a lot of fun.

Incarnate has the right approach... taking things a bit slow, and letting the gamestate illustrate the requirements for nerfing...

Releasing the floor for further discussion.
[VPR]Seta Ralel

Seta:

Just a quick reply, I think you have your wires crossed just a bit (I know I'm nit picking). I think it was Tram complaining about the agt, and he returned in a moth with only mines. I was the *buddy* who came in a dual agt moth, but I wasnt complaining about the agt before.

Gavan

Well, :) why complain, its 4v1, proms or light fighters, I'm still at a disadvantage.

My only worry is the effect this has on duel standings. And for that I think we need (and a1k0n told us this was coming) separate stats for heavy, medium, and light fighters.

Otherwise, its just too touch and go with a prom vs light fighter (or Rocketrag for that matter, such as the MGC) to really get a good idea of the "skill" in question. The truth is that they don't really measure the same skillset.

The Gedanken experiment often performed by players here, given too equal pilots, what is the outcome? is flawed by the inability to establish equality.

As long as there are answers to the prom, which are, in turn, versatile ships (like the hogs SHOULD be), I don't think there will be a problem. The problem seems to be that the reliable answers to the prom are NOT versatile ships. A swarm Rag, while capable of taking out a prom, has no other real use.

But if any ship requires multiple attackers, or an identical ship, there's a flaw.

Hey Gavan/Shape...

No wires crossed at all (not only was I clear *in* the fights, but I also reviewed the log rather thoroughly - I know who got the kill(s), and I am clear on all that was said :)... I was trying to be a bit careful about "naming" *anyone*... because it doesn't really matter (except for the overt *spite* against a weapon system that literally makes a tug a tank)... but man! What fun! You guys rocked! And I had a blast, er... so to speak... :)

I agree with Shape, here... difficult to manage "quality" dual stats... and there *are* definitely different skillsets... which exactly makes my point: there doesn't need to be an immediate nerf of a system because it doesn't fit "a person's" immediate fighting style... and my point with the 4v1 example (sorry, bud... but I do have to toot your horn a bit), was that Shape *adapted* to the situation... stood his ground - or rather *used* his ground (literally all gozillion meters of it) to move the favor to his side... that is a skill equally important for player-vs-player as it is for Nv1...

Finally, I also said... the Prom can (has, and will) be taken by a single scooter (read "light fighter" here)... it wasn't a short fight by any means... we don't always get immediate gratification in life... by the same token, some of the most appreciated rewards are those gained by concerted effort. I'd be willing to bet that of the numerous fights you have been in... the ones that stand out most clearly to you are those that took the most "effort"...

The entire point of my post was to illuminate the fact that there are differing "styles"... and differing "opinions"... and simply stating "this is too über... or that is too über" is rather short-sighted.

Seta

Erm, I think he is then he is talking about me :)

There was a bit of a viper vs bl free for all going on in b8 and I joined in as best as I could (a problem for me since I have good uit standing). There were, however, a couple of serco vipers so I could play too. I got blown up a couple of times, I blew them up a couple of times - it was a good fight.

Later, I came back and the battle was over; I hung around looking for something to do, and one viper suggests we duel. We start dueling, and suddenly I started to get hit with swarms from someone else, interrupting our duel. Afterward I get a message that "now we are even" for someone I blew up during the free-for-all.

Then, every time I came back into the sector, the same guy started hitting me with missiles from outside of range. Let me be clear - I was not complaining about the AGT. I love and use the AGT myself :)

I was complaining about swarm spamming from outside of range (over 400m - no chance to fight back unless you are armed with swarms yourself). So I went and loaded my aggresso with chaos swarms and warped back into the sector, gave my pirately yarr, and started firing. I just wanted to show that anyone could load a heavy ship with swarms and spam another ship to death, as opposed to his contention that it takes a lot of skill to hit with missiles in that you need to know when to fire.

He survived the first volley, volleyed back, and then turboed out of the sector (I splashed).

I was not complaining about rockets or even using missiles in combat, but that sitting far away and firing swarms at people is not fighting. I know it's hard to tell if someone is dueling. I myself usually use a tactic like, "Is that a duel or can I join in?" Normally one will turbo off just long enough to say "Duel" and then get back to it, and I will back off.

And as for spite at the tactic of swarm spamming... well, yes. It is annoying and makes the game no fun. I couldn't play last night because some guy kept swarm spamming me whenever I got nearly 400m from him. I don't mind being slaughtered by someone better than I am - there are quite a few pilots who I am sure can attest to my ability to dump several hundred thousand credits in an attempt to win Just. One. Fight. (but thanks for the practice, anyway, Martin) :)

I just don't appreciate spammers who make a good battle no fun for anyone because they are not willing to risk losing their ship (warping out after being hit once in the middle of the fight) and are not willing to actually engage a target (staying over 400m out).

EDIT:

Perhaps I am wrong, though, in expecting others to play with *my* sense of fairness. If the majority of people in the game feel that "if it's possible, it's fair", perhaps that is how I should expect the game to be played.

Those who just swarm spam from over 400m out can't say that they are skilled with swarms; most of my swarm kills have been from within that distance. Unless you have a perfect shot (or it's an ambush) a long-range swarm kill is an iffy proposition indeed.

Swarms are a perfectly legitimate weapon (it's not that hard to figure out when a swarmer is out of ammo) and even in skilled hands they should not be more than an annoyance for a pilot used to evading them. Granted, they do make cheap behaviour possible, but if anyone is really being insufferable (as in this case) your guildmates should help you take care of him. That's what guilds are for.

Firstly, at the time, much of the guild that was online was busy in a meeting. And it's one thing to dodge missiles you know are being fired at you, but it's another when you aren't expecting them because no one is withing a few hundred meters except for the person you are dueling.

Secondly, sorry for hijacking this thread to be sanctimonious :)

why is doubleteaming a mistake?

seems to me that 2 sets of guns are better than one

Its a mistake because at the ranges involved in actually consistently pulling hits against a prom, having a second fighter there ups the odds that flares are going to hit.

It doesn't matter *who*... and it wasn't about the fights, per se... I was commenting on "Prom Tactics"... I wanted to point out that for some "the kill" is the important part... for me it's "the battle"...

I also tried to make the point that wanting to nerf a weapon system (the AGT) because of the "Prom" only was a mistake, because there are employable tactics (the pilot side)... and other ships (the hardware side) that use them as well.

As a side note: it was mentioned above - communication is helpful too... and I am at somewhat of a disadvantage there while in battle because my setup requires me to "reach" over for the keyboard... (I get type-killed if I'm not homed or really careful)... so I may be a bit quiet, but it does not mean I'm not listening... and I'll accept any comment, critique, or suggestion.

and I appreciate you folks for joining in this thread and sharing your point of view... I'm learning a lot, here.

edit:
I flew through a few swarm storms last night too... but I dodged them, and focused on getting splashed by Martin... ;)

As far as the AGT, I personally don't like it. It ruins your aim, and makes the journey back to light fighters very difficult.

Its also just too easy. Instead of hitting someone twice on the approach with a light fighter, via dodging like a madman AND trying to aim. You just approach and dodge like crazy, while holding the mouse button.

I've said before in my balance thread that I'd like to see the autoaim cone dropped a bit. And make up for it on the other AGT mountable ships by upping their spin torque to compensate for the decrease, with the exception of the prom, which I don't believe NEEDS the AGT to roxxor my boxxorz.

The biggest problem I can think of, is that the AGT-hog is one of the major playable forms of the hog. And its completely worse than a prom with AGT.

well I don't mind a reduction in the AGT's auto-aim (and perhaps a very slight increase in the GC's) if the Hog gets a spin torque and maybe even a very very slight thrust boost to compensate. The large cone coupled with the way auto-aim works means that most of your shots can be spoofed anyway.

The hog right now kinda slogs around with the current weights, so it's extremely difficult to compete with the almost ridiculously small and fast centurions, the ridiculously thin vultures, and the ridiculously strong valks (I think a light fighter is ridiculously strong if all its variants are faster and have stronger armor than the hog). No matter how I look at it, I think they need some boosting of the engine and spin stats, but if I get those, then I won't mind a reduction of the agt. If there's a reduction in the agt and not boost of the hog, then I'd be pretty upset about it, I think, cuz then the hog would suck too much.