I guess I'll kick this dead horse one more time. For the typical game player, the learning curve for combat in this game is too steep. I've read all the advice, tried a number of techniques, practiced a lot, and tried a wide variety of ships and equipment. I still can barely succeed against an Aputech-5. I honestly don't think you will find many people willing to invest as much time as I have giving this game a chance. They are just going to quit and go play something else, because I can't think of any other MMOG that requires you to practice for hours on end just to get the hang of playing the game. VO will always be restricted to a very small audience of die-hards.

Now I know that there are other aspects of the game besides botting, and those are pretty fun so far. I'll still probably hang on a while and see how those develop, and given that I am a sucker for punishment I'll still probably keep getting blown up by Aputech-5s. However, I don't think most gamers are going to be up for it.

I smell glue..

Get over it. Botting is not the biggest, best, or most important part of the game.. And anyone who quits because "Botting is too hard" doesn't get what the game is about..

Your lament for botting doesn't offer any solutions or changes. What makes it so hard? The flight patterns? They usually stay a constant distance from you. The damage? Don't fly in regular patterns, strafe wildly and unpredictably. Hitting the bots? Turn off autoaim sometimes and learn to hit the bots without it. Bots ganging up on you? Strafe in directions that make one bot drift close to the other bot. Then their shots will come from similar directions and they'll be easier to dodge.

We fight bots to gain levels. When bots get too hard, go do something else, like PvP or trading. Go fight real people, then botting will be much easier. Find someone to train you by dueling, then after a while your piloting skills will improve and bots will be child's play compared to decent real players.

Please re-read what I wrote. This isn't a "down with VO" rant, and I didn't say I was quitting. I said the combat learning curve is too steep. Suggesting that I need to practice and/or be trained is confirmation that it is too steep. The overwhelming majority of players will not stick around to practice and/or be trained for many hours just to learn how to play the game, and so VO will starve for lack of players.

It may be that I'm not very good at being a VO combat pilot. That's fine! Maybe I'll go mine. What I'm pointing out is that few people will see it that way.

Solutions I think are fairly easy to come by. One possible solution: I'm not sure if it's my imagination or not, but it seems like bot AI ramps up when your license levels increase. If so, stop it. Another solution: equipment options (e.g., what about an EMP missile?). Another solution: NPC pilots who are also engaging bots in the same sector. Another solution: better ways to "pull" so that you can pick your battles. Another solution: some kind of level indicator shown when you select a bot so that you can gauge yourself against it before flying into combat.

At the risk of sounding like I'm saying "I was able to do it, you should too," botting is important for many reasons. One is to be able to instill the fundamentals of Vendetta combat in a player. If you're having trouble, ASK someone for help in the game. If anyone's nearby, they might even take you out to a botting sector and show you some techniques. Otherwise, the might just explain it to you on a private group so that they don't have to tell *everyone.*

Yes, the learning curve is steep, but if it weren't steep, then everyone would be making mad dashes to upper-level licenses. As it is, I feel as if there is a fairly nice "ramp" for botting skills. Beginning botting sets new players against easy targets in which they learn that they can't stay stationary, but rather some lateral movement is necessary. As players get more advanced, they figure out what maneuvers are hard to hit, and what maneuvers make it easy to shoot accurately. The different types of bots require different fighting styles - the method I use to take down guardians is a modification of the method I use against assaults. The method I use against hive queens and all their escorts is different from all of them :) Some players figure out how to take down guardians quickly and have trouble on assaults, while others have an easier time on assaults and have trouble against guardians. They then turn to other players to fill in the gaps. This is how people learn. I'm not saying you're not trying hard enough, wylfing. I'm saying that if you get stuck, you always have the community to turn to for help. If a player never needed help playing a game, they'd get bored of it rather quickly, don't you think?

Bot AIs stay constant for each bot. Higher level bots have better AIs. If you don't think you can survive a battle, run. Set up an escape jump before going into battle, and draw some bots out past the 3000m mark. Instant escape route.

The real goal of Vendetta is to engage other players in combat. In this environment, you'll find that while some of your knowledge doesn't apply (bot maneuver patterns, for instance), much of it does - in a basic sense. There are lots of players who'd love to get some PvP time in - Shape even is holding "classes" in PvP for Itani.

You can kill ANY bot in the game for light and heavy weapon skill. However at the moment there are only two combat XP missions that require you to kill progressively challenging bots so you will earn bigger bonuses to level up. If you tried to level up to combat level 5 using only ORUN collectors you'd have to kill thousands of bots.

also don't assume the 1st bot on the list will be the easiest for you. I found that my fighting style made TyCorp Assaults the easiest to kill even thought APU-5 were 1st on the list.

I also want to stress trying out different ship/weapon configurations especially now that mass has an impact on acceleration and turning radius.

On a different note I wonder how many guilds have started to organize. A guild could set up times for guild members to get together, hang out in a sector and duel or the guild could organize a mining convoy.

Sara is very right. You need to try different configurations on your ship to really get the hang of botting. My weapon config's for botting and PvP are SOOO far apart its not funny. Try new stuff.....you'll get the right combo eventually

Your opinion doesn't seem too popular in this forum, but I think that more players like you is exactly what VO needs to become a vibrant world worth participating in.

By your own admission, you feel you aren't very good at space combat. Fine. That's valid. Perhaps combat IS difficult, and will remain something that challenges players much longer than combat found in other MMORPGs.

Now let's suppose that we get dozens more players just like you - who like the game, but know they aren't ace pilots by any measure. They like trading, mining and exploring. In order to survive these activites, they have a couple options. One, they could enlist the help of some ace pilots for protection, or they could at least try to stick together, offering what meagre protection they can to help cover each other's butts.

The game is designed to make forays into space dangerous. It is also designed to encourage player cooperation and role play. Personally, this is the part I like the best. I can't wait for the day when a large gang of non-combat-skilled players go off on a mining trip and successfully fend off an elite pirate or two.

I hope I run into you in VO - 'cause I'm likely to ask for a hand.

I went weeks and weeks without combat or chatting with any other players... was still fun :)--plus that there is now a lot more to do!

i just want to tell the OP that he needs to go to pirate space, like Odia or Sedina, to a Corvus station, and buy some decent ships/weapons that you cant get in normal space. then he/she will have an easier time with killing the bots.

your thrust/weight ratio, spin torque, and your weapon power really does make a big difference in killing bots. alot of these 'just strafe and roll' people forget that they have some fancy weapons and a wonderful ship. you dont see many of them out killing aputechs with a bus.

but on top of that, patience... which i dont have... is important. if you cant kill the aputechs and get 100 experience points, then you have to just sit there killing 3 of those stupid artemis collectors for 35 each. i have no patience, but my brother does, and it took him a lot less time to level in combat than me.

as for the 'you can just mine and trade' comments.. well, no actually, you have to have +3 heavy weapons before you can even get a centaur.. which is pretty much a mining/trading fat pig of a ship in the first place. otherwise their option for trading is the Atlas, which only has about 75% of the cargo space of the centaur... and 1s1L, not as good for mining as a centaur which has 1s2L. ie to be a great trader/miner, you have to level up your heavy weapons skills, which means killing several hundred bots for hours on end, and if you are stuck with just artemis and dentek that you can kill its kind of repetitive after about the 100th time watching them go boom.

Unfortunately, my point isn't getting across. I really appreciate the positive comments about my own (lack of) progress in combat skills, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about player base. The game will never attract a wide base of players with combat the way it is now. The level of persistence required to learn it will drive away all but the most stubborn (and the few to whom it comes easily). Now I'm not privy to the economics of running this game, but I do run my own shop and I have a sense of how much revenue is required to stay above water. My gut tells me VO needs thousands more players, probably tens of thousands more. The inaccessibility of combat may not run Guild Software out of business (or it might), but its growth rate is almost certainly going to be minute.

A quick rebuttal: ananzi I've been to the Corvus stations. I have had decent kit. It doesn't help me. (Although I'm really starting to think threat management is the hardest thing -- it just might be that the upcoming radar enhancements will be what helps me.)

Combat isn't the only option.

I inferr from your opening statement that you are frustrated that the APU-5 were taken away from your combat list too soon. Just as you started to master the technique for killing the bot it was removed from the list. That is a reasonable response. I fact I had the same response. I was frustrated but I did some dueling and I tried a new ship/weapon combo and I was able to breakthrough the wall. It turned out to be a Tycorp assult and I actually earned more XP for killing these bots and leveled up faster.

Would keeping the Apu-5 on the combat list till lvl 5 address your concerns?

Would adding different variations of combat xp missions address you concerns?

What would help is to set up an advanced combat tutorial mission.

Something that would explain some more complex concepts to the player, like manually leading shots, strafe/rolling, etc.

Right now, the underlying mechanics of the combat are extremely opaque to players who have not either played a Newtonian-physics flight sim before, or have a native understanding of how such a game works.

Having a detailed combat tutorial to give the player an idea of how they can be effective in combat would probably ease frustrations quite a bit.

Long post. Hope it is useful.

I oppose wylfing's suggestion that the learning curve is too steep. The bots are available in sufficient variety to allow beginners to get some easy kills, while still allowing top-players some competition (at least, until I found out how to kill them without fear for my own life yesterday :)
I am busy writing a tutorial based on my own experiences. It starts with beginner level botting (Orun Collectors, Dentek Collectors) and I am in the process of adding content for the heavier bots (Aputech, TyCorp, Valen, Orne).
I must say, the tips from this very thread really helped :)
The url is: http://gimo.dhs.org/users/michiel/vendetta/index.php
Comments are welcome. But it is a work in progress.

The trick to Aputech guardians (in my case) was:
- fly into the sector cautiously. As soon as you spot an Aputech Guardian (keep hitting the 'target closest enemy' key), turn and run. The guardian will follow.
- when you are at 3000m from the closest object, make sure to pre-select your return station. That way, you can always hit 'enter' and save your butt.
- switch of flight assist. It sucks for combat.
- turn around, hit 's' to make your ship move backwards as fast as possible. Keep this key depressed at all times!
- find a strafe key (left, right, up, down, doesn't matter) and position a finger on it.
- find a roll key (left or right (q or e), doesn't matter) and position a finger on it.
- wait for the guardian to get into range (300m or so) and fire all you have. Because it is comming right at you, you will land a lot of bonus hits.
- now immediately start strafing, rolling and going backwards. Your now moving in 5 degrees of the possible 6 (2 are controlled by your mouse/joystick). You can try both strafing for example up and left to get all 6 degrees, but that does not add to the effect.
- keep shooting at the aiming guide. It is a wonderful tool and despite comments earlier in this thread, shooting dead ahead is not as worthwhile as shooting at the aiming aid. Move your mouse pointer around the aid (as if you can avoid that ;) to make sure your fire gets dispersed around the guardian, making it impossible for the bot to change course without still taking a hit.
- you do not need to roll constantly. You can leave off the rolling when the bot is not firing. Just make sure to start rolling immediately when you see it firing. If you aren't quick enough to react to that, observe the bot closely (orientation and distance) and try to get a feel for when to start rolling before it fires. Alternatively, you can try to roll constantly. I found that rolling constantly with a hornet turns me right into the guardian's fire. I suspect that this is because the ship turns too slowly, more or less causing half a turn to exactly end up in the incomming line of fire again. By turning in 90 degree steps every second, I could avoid more fire. (so turn slowly)

With this setup, you are sure to kill the opponent as long as it does not get help. And Aputech Guardians like to fight alone. Don't fly into an asteroid (but you were 3000m out of the field, so chances are slim).
A lighter ship turns much more quickly, making it possible to avoid all hits (vult, valk, etc.). A heavier ship not only turns more slowly, it also makes for a larger target. Expect to get hit with a large ship (warthog, hornet, wraith, etc.).
Do not load a hornet with 4 neutrons. That drains your batteries way to fast. You will miss a lot, so it is better to have a weapon that you can fire for a long time (low energy per blast, low blast frequency), than to have a weapon that hits with a lot of damage. When you are more confident in avoiding incomming fire, you can try neutrons again, because you will have time to let your batteries recharge.
If you have a heavy weapon, you can use it to do 2 things: shoot early, to do damage quickly. Or shoot at the end to kill it off, to get heavy weapons experience. The trick in the latter case is to finish the guardian off almost completely, then to fire a missile.

In the end, there is almost no avoiding incomming fire with a heavy vessel loaded with cargo, weapons and hull. You are not supposed to either, because it is a heavy ship. Take the damage, just minimize it. Avoid TyCorps, because they fight in pairs. Pairs suck, because you can only seriously avoid one of them.
With a vulture, everything becomes easy. Strafe, roll and fly backwards at the same time. Never release, just keep doing that. I never got hit (except when I flew into that asteroid). I could drink something, talk to my wife, take a phone call, whatever, as long as I pressed those three keys. You can bind them under a single key to make it easier.

At that point, botting with a vulture stops being fun :) But it also allows for some experimenting with advancing instead of retreating, changing rolling and strafing directions, etc.

Now I need to get into PvP...

Excellent post & link, michiel! Just one thing I want to add:

"Avoid TyCorps, because they fight in pairs. Pairs suck, because you can only seriously avoid one of them."

Pairs or more do make it more difficult to dodge, but can still be done fairly easily. The trick is to strafe so that the bots get close together. Target the closest TyCorp with 'x', and strafe away from the further TyCorp, i.e. if the further TyCorp is to the left of the closer one, strafe to the right. As long as you keep them close together, it isn't too much harder to dodge two bots than one. I personally find TyCorps pretty easy, because of their low armor.

Lots of very impressive posts!

One other thing that any discouraged players should know: YOU CAN BE A POOR PILOT AND HAVE QUITE DECENT RESULTS AT BOTTING. Trust me, I know what I am talking about :)

All of the middle level bots come in pairs, some of the high level bots come in threes.

michiel: A tutorial would be great. I also agree that once you get the hang of certain ways of flying against bots, the difficulty of it goes way down. (I was able to beat a pair of TyCorp Assuaults yesterday in my Vulture.) My concern is that it took a lot of persistence for me to learn the technique, most players will not be that persistent -- they'll just give up and play a different game.

Beolach: Threat management of two or more bots is the hardest part of botting, I've found. Fighting one by itself is not that big a deal once you learn the tricks. Fighting two is an order of magnitude harder.

Soltis: Yes, absolutely, an in-game tutorial mission for advanced combat would be very helpful. Not only are the flight mechanics frustrating for newcomers, the behavior of different ships can seem bizarre, such as why the Hornet will get hit in a constant roll as michiel pointed out -- that kind of thing seems arbitrary and difficult.

sarahanne: The ramp-up of the Advanced Combat Training mission isn't an issue for me. I feel that is fine. Different types of combat missions are desperately needed (or, put differently, other ways to earn combat pilot experience [in addition to PvP]). But this has already been well identified in the suggestions forum.

Really high level bots come in groups of 4 and 5 , and all try to do inflight from as wide angles as possible. IE, front and back, and so on.

First, I'd like to link you guys to this thread. A lot of the sentiments here can find their counterparts there. This thread is basically the opposite of the other one.

http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/7632?page=1

i'd also like to pass on some advice that helped me a lot. spend 5 minutes flying around asteroids. practice trying to fly along the terrain and also flying donuts where you face the asteroid the whole time and maintain a constant distance from it. this teaches you how to maneuver correctly. i translated this in botting to thinking about the bots firing stream as a solid object. i simply move away from the solid object. this works for apus, tys, and ornes. i don't fight much else.

I'm new to VO (only started last Sunday) but I've played a lot of 3D-space-shooters (Descent et.al.)

I've just started killing guardians and assaults and I also find the TyCorp Assuaults easyest cause they don't have a spread-fire weapon, easyer to dodge.

The big problem for newbies is that there is a HUGE difference in difficulty between the 'most-difficult' collector and the 'easyest' guardian/assault. The reason for this is I think quite simple...

Aputech 5's shoot MUCH MUCH more and they actually hit you.

Those collectors shoot 2 bolts every several seconds, and those are very easy to dodge. Then you search your first Aputech 5 and you suddenly you get overwhelmed by a barrage of spread fire that can kill you in no time.

To make it more gradual, this huge difference in firepower should be made more gradual so you don't get insta-killed when you haven't figued out you actually have to try to dodge those shots.

If the rate of fire of the Aputech 5 was 1/2 or 1/4 of what it is now, it would give newbies a chance to learn to dodge before they get blown to bits.