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i am a little concerned here, and maybe as a beta tester i should speak my mind even on matters related to playability.
if my undestanding is correct the game is really close now to what the game buyers will get.
still, i see that with each day that passes the vendetta population that is present in the game decreases. it is possible that the players are all waiting for the release because they don't want to level up and lose their standings at the last char reset.
but it's also possible that they got bored really quick and gave up on the game very fast. we will probably see that as soon as the game is officially launched with the last character wipe. but if the game is prelaunched with players allowed to permanently level up and the population decreases day-by-day after that launch then the devs should be really concerned. it may be late already at that point but let's hope it won't be too late.
i am very sure that the game needs more than 200 fanatics to become a commercial product and give GuildSW the chance to continue development.
another concern is the leveling system and how will this system afect gameplay on the long run. i have some unclarities about this as well:
- will there be levels limits ?
- what happens after a player gets to max/max/max/max ?
- can a character lose levels (decrease) ?
- can a character die ? as in "got to start again from 0/0/0/0" ?
if there are answers to these questions, there should be a good strategy at GuildSW on when exactly they are implemented and introduced in the game. let's say that after you get to 20/20/20/20 you will get to build stations, or create multi-user ships. that is ok, but if half the users get to max levels in 2 weeks, they will probably wait for another week to see something new and then start to get bored. what i mean is that the "build station" and "multi-user ships" (for example) should probably be ready by then.
i hope that the devs already gathered more experience on the MMOG's and that those possible issues are solved or at least on their agenda with realistic estimations.
and guys, please don't take this message the wrong way, i just love Vendetta and i would like to see it starting, growing and exploding, rather than burning out to just a few game fanatics that would always play (if the servers will remain active), either there are 10k players online or just 10, as they are at this very moment.
i am not requesting answers on these issues, and if the issues raised here by me are false and the answers are already there, this message should probably be closed by the FM and die as the first and last one-message thread ;)
if my undestanding is correct the game is really close now to what the game buyers will get.
still, i see that with each day that passes the vendetta population that is present in the game decreases. it is possible that the players are all waiting for the release because they don't want to level up and lose their standings at the last char reset.
but it's also possible that they got bored really quick and gave up on the game very fast. we will probably see that as soon as the game is officially launched with the last character wipe. but if the game is prelaunched with players allowed to permanently level up and the population decreases day-by-day after that launch then the devs should be really concerned. it may be late already at that point but let's hope it won't be too late.
i am very sure that the game needs more than 200 fanatics to become a commercial product and give GuildSW the chance to continue development.
another concern is the leveling system and how will this system afect gameplay on the long run. i have some unclarities about this as well:
- will there be levels limits ?
- what happens after a player gets to max/max/max/max ?
- can a character lose levels (decrease) ?
- can a character die ? as in "got to start again from 0/0/0/0" ?
if there are answers to these questions, there should be a good strategy at GuildSW on when exactly they are implemented and introduced in the game. let's say that after you get to 20/20/20/20 you will get to build stations, or create multi-user ships. that is ok, but if half the users get to max levels in 2 weeks, they will probably wait for another week to see something new and then start to get bored. what i mean is that the "build station" and "multi-user ships" (for example) should probably be ready by then.
i hope that the devs already gathered more experience on the MMOG's and that those possible issues are solved or at least on their agenda with realistic estimations.
and guys, please don't take this message the wrong way, i just love Vendetta and i would like to see it starting, growing and exploding, rather than burning out to just a few game fanatics that would always play (if the servers will remain active), either there are 10k players online or just 10, as they are at this very moment.
i am not requesting answers on these issues, and if the issues raised here by me are false and the answers are already there, this message should probably be closed by the FM and die as the first and last one-message thread ;)
Sorry, I didn't read through your post before posting, but I would still like to say 'yes.'
Yes.
Gonna go actually read now.
Edity: 'kay, I read.
My opinion is that your fears are unfounded, and there will be much more than 200 people playing the game. There ya go.
Yes.
Gonna go actually read now.
Edity: 'kay, I read.
My opinion is that your fears are unfounded, and there will be much more than 200 people playing the game. There ya go.
Don't forget that Vendetta is meant to evolve and grow as time passes. As people get to higher levels, then stuff will change to accomodate.
about the levels: it seems that in the beta, you dont get anything more after 9/10/10/9, i sure hope there will be more after release tough im still playing the game, having fun just pvp-ing other players and the like.
So i think vendetta will still be interesting after you reach the 'max level' simply because there's gonna be group missions making players interact with each other etc...(if you want, after the 'rpg part' it becomes a 'space combat strategy' part)
besides vendetta will continue to evolve after launch so you can bet this 'max level' (meaning the level after which you don't get anything new) will be higher and higher.
as for the numbers of players i bet there will be faaaar more than 200 players, and it's up to us to make sure of it by telling our friends etc...
if all of us love this game, there's no reason others wont.
So i think vendetta will still be interesting after you reach the 'max level' simply because there's gonna be group missions making players interact with each other etc...(if you want, after the 'rpg part' it becomes a 'space combat strategy' part)
besides vendetta will continue to evolve after launch so you can bet this 'max level' (meaning the level after which you don't get anything new) will be higher and higher.
as for the numbers of players i bet there will be faaaar more than 200 players, and it's up to us to make sure of it by telling our friends etc...
if all of us love this game, there's no reason others wont.
We'll see on release. If they invited everyone who was interested in the game to the open beta, and that was it... well then it's been a fun ride. If others are still looking then perhaps the population will be larger on release. We won't be able to answer this question until then.
Hmm, I'm still on the fence on this one, to me VO isn't really in MMORPG in my eyes, which is what its been stated as a few times, that alone may attract peopleto the game thta then get dissapointed by it as they expected something else. Numbers wise, i'll admit its extremly quiet atm, I was online earlier and there was no chat on ch 100 in the 10-15 minutes I was online, although I'm sure this is because the game is about to launch, although it does bring up the issue that, if the game is really that playable, why do people care about their progress?
I really hope VO does ok, I'm still concerned on the graphics (models, textures and interfaces) as well as the content, although I know its in the works, i hope it doesn't result in a bad launch for the game, as well, in the end I'll remember the famous saying from 'Command and Conquer:Red alert' :- 'Time will tell' :-)
I really hope VO does ok, I'm still concerned on the graphics (models, textures and interfaces) as well as the content, although I know its in the works, i hope it doesn't result in a bad launch for the game, as well, in the end I'll remember the famous saying from 'Command and Conquer:Red alert' :- 'Time will tell' :-)
I truely think VO has the potential to become a huge MMORPG. One of the major problems I see right now is that everybody seems to want to bot and bot and bot and forget to interact with eachother. Start some wars between guilds, do raids on enemy territory, go attack eachother!
The leveling system is not supposed to be a game, its just a control system in the game. Player interaction will make or break a game like this, so if you really want it to succeed start interacting!
The leveling system is not supposed to be a game, its just a control system in the game. Player interaction will make or break a game like this, so if you really want it to succeed start interacting!
"VO isn't really in MMORPG in my eyes"
M - It's quite "Massive"
M - It's a multi-player game
O - It's online
RP - You can role play in it
G - Oh yeah, it is a game
M - It's quite "Massive"
M - It's a multi-player game
O - It's online
RP - You can role play in it
G - Oh yeah, it is a game
The problem is stick, you could then apply 'MMORPG' to any game out there, VO seems more of a FPS game atm, the chance to RP is pretty limited atm with the game.
The only way it can really be considered as an MMORPG is if the tools are there for the player-base to create their own community. To me this means that player guilds should be able to affect the virtual world i.e. take over and control a sector, including any space stations within it (just one example, of course).
What's wrong? Not enough imagination to roleplay without stat sheets and pretty pictures?
I know about the roleplay boards Celkan, I've had a nosey in there :-)
Genka, this is meant to be a MMORPG, you can't expect the players to do the RPG element in forums or make it up themselves, the game needs the tools for players to be able to do it, the tools are almost there as well, but since the immersion into VO isn't that huge atm, it is more difficult to feel for your avator and get into the Roleplay mood. I have faith in the devs, it just really eats me up to see the game with so much potential been pushed forward before its ready, Its such a damn shame the devs can't find funding to get the game polished off before releasing it :-/
Genka, this is meant to be a MMORPG, you can't expect the players to do the RPG element in forums or make it up themselves, the game needs the tools for players to be able to do it, the tools are almost there as well, but since the immersion into VO isn't that huge atm, it is more difficult to feel for your avator and get into the Roleplay mood. I have faith in the devs, it just really eats me up to see the game with so much potential been pushed forward before its ready, Its such a damn shame the devs can't find funding to get the game polished off before releasing it :-/
For my self, just waiting on release and not playing as You stated .Why lvl up when its going to be released in about a week:)
and also i must say it looks to be priced so that I can have it and WoW at the same time:)I have pre ordered it and waiting on the mail.
and also i must say it looks to be priced so that I can have it and WoW at the same time:)I have pre ordered it and waiting on the mail.
Actually, I've just left the game to post something similar to this. I saw this thread so I'll put it here.
IMHO this game IS boring. And as an indicator that I'm not the only one thinking that way I have:
1. There aren't much people playing in the beta test. I have no idea if it's open. Maybe they only allowed 100 to play?
2. I've just raised this question inside the game and most people agreed with me.
Btw, I came to this by a player who asked "Is this like trade wars?". And Trade Wars is a great game (in ASCII graphics). And Vendetta can't compare to it. It sure has some nice graphics, but this is not enough.
I'll try to say why it's not very interesting to keep playing:
All you do is fly around, bot and level up. You level up really quickly, so there's not much new to discover after having played for maybe a week. Maybe you add new stuff to the game, but this would just delay the problem.
There is not much player interaction. You have some missions, ok. But this is just some kind of artificial add on. I think this game just doesn't have any strategic elements. Maybe it's ok for PvP spaceship combat. But nothing more. And this is not what a MMPORG should be like.
In this game, you don't play against other humans, you play against the game. And just adding 10^x more players won't change this.
Here are some examples which could be done in a space simulation:
-Form a guild and grab a system, build up a base and make money while trying to defend it against others.
-Attack other people and capture something from them. Ships, stations cargo. (You can capture cargo here, but it's not rewarding)
-Make a trade convoy, hire some players and try to defend it.
-> Currently you can't own things that make the game worth playing
You could implement some kind of newspaper, announcing the transport of an valuable artifact one week in advance. Let some people escort the transport. Others may attack it. DON'T do this on a hourly basis like in the current version. This is boring.
The game is too small. It's a space game. ->SPACE<-
The real universe is huge... We have some 16 systems to fly around in?
I can travel through the whole 'known vendetta universe' in under half an hour.
Take the transport event. I bet there would be many players who would take on a journey of 6+ hours (maybe you can trade on the way) in real life to get there. This way you would have the players involved in something for 6+ hours.
Different equipment in different systems is not interesting if I can fly to Corvus, buy a Centaur and fly back to Serco space to trade with it in 30 minutes. This is boring. And I don't feel I've bought something special because I just had to fly 15 minutes to get it and 15 to fly back (and the money, well I earn a multiple of the cost on one run)
I know this post isn't written well or structured in any way. I hope you get the idea. I think it's my dutie as tester to say this, though Guild won't be able to change it in time.
So either they have tons of stuff kept secret for release (which I doubt, because it doesn't make any sense to me) or they've just gone into the wrong direction with the game.
Hopefully I'm wrong.
P.S.:
Concerning the space aspect of the game:
The thing about space sims that kept fascinating me was this:
You have some inhabited planets. This is a limited area. But around those, There's the rest of the galaxy consisting of a nearly unlimited amount of uninhabited systems to discover.
And the best thing would be to let the players extend this inhabited area by installing new bases and such. This way you would always have a (changing!!!) frontier. And inside you have an always growing area where you can trade or do politics (war).
By letting the players create the universe it would be much more detailed than it could ever get by designing it by one central instance and it would be less work for that instance.
This would be in the real spirit of a MMPORG.
IMHO this game IS boring. And as an indicator that I'm not the only one thinking that way I have:
1. There aren't much people playing in the beta test. I have no idea if it's open. Maybe they only allowed 100 to play?
2. I've just raised this question inside the game and most people agreed with me.
Btw, I came to this by a player who asked "Is this like trade wars?". And Trade Wars is a great game (in ASCII graphics). And Vendetta can't compare to it. It sure has some nice graphics, but this is not enough.
I'll try to say why it's not very interesting to keep playing:
All you do is fly around, bot and level up. You level up really quickly, so there's not much new to discover after having played for maybe a week. Maybe you add new stuff to the game, but this would just delay the problem.
There is not much player interaction. You have some missions, ok. But this is just some kind of artificial add on. I think this game just doesn't have any strategic elements. Maybe it's ok for PvP spaceship combat. But nothing more. And this is not what a MMPORG should be like.
In this game, you don't play against other humans, you play against the game. And just adding 10^x more players won't change this.
Here are some examples which could be done in a space simulation:
-Form a guild and grab a system, build up a base and make money while trying to defend it against others.
-Attack other people and capture something from them. Ships, stations cargo. (You can capture cargo here, but it's not rewarding)
-Make a trade convoy, hire some players and try to defend it.
-> Currently you can't own things that make the game worth playing
You could implement some kind of newspaper, announcing the transport of an valuable artifact one week in advance. Let some people escort the transport. Others may attack it. DON'T do this on a hourly basis like in the current version. This is boring.
The game is too small. It's a space game. ->SPACE<-
The real universe is huge... We have some 16 systems to fly around in?
I can travel through the whole 'known vendetta universe' in under half an hour.
Take the transport event. I bet there would be many players who would take on a journey of 6+ hours (maybe you can trade on the way) in real life to get there. This way you would have the players involved in something for 6+ hours.
Different equipment in different systems is not interesting if I can fly to Corvus, buy a Centaur and fly back to Serco space to trade with it in 30 minutes. This is boring. And I don't feel I've bought something special because I just had to fly 15 minutes to get it and 15 to fly back (and the money, well I earn a multiple of the cost on one run)
I know this post isn't written well or structured in any way. I hope you get the idea. I think it's my dutie as tester to say this, though Guild won't be able to change it in time.
So either they have tons of stuff kept secret for release (which I doubt, because it doesn't make any sense to me) or they've just gone into the wrong direction with the game.
Hopefully I'm wrong.
P.S.:
Concerning the space aspect of the game:
The thing about space sims that kept fascinating me was this:
You have some inhabited planets. This is a limited area. But around those, There's the rest of the galaxy consisting of a nearly unlimited amount of uninhabited systems to discover.
And the best thing would be to let the players extend this inhabited area by installing new bases and such. This way you would always have a (changing!!!) frontier. And inside you have an always growing area where you can trade or do politics (war).
By letting the players create the universe it would be much more detailed than it could ever get by designing it by one central instance and it would be less work for that instance.
This would be in the real spirit of a MMPORG.
ok, so far so good. it's a good sign there were so many answers in so little time.
considering that the main role for this forums is to help the devs its good that all the answers are oriented toward that goal.
as far as i am concerned, i will help out by promoting any Guild SW initiative in my area as far as i can, and i do have some meaningfull tools. but that will not be enough.
there are some important issues that will not be shared with us though. it is important for example what expectations the publisher has from this game as an "enterprise".
since the effort was mainly from Guild Software, if the publisher doesn't care too much about the figures at day-0 and if the guys at Guild Software will not be dissapointed by a 200 player base in the first month (wich i consider EXTREMELY small) then we are in for a long and interesting ride.
then, if the marketing policies will include various promotion tools like partnerships, web plugins for guilds, downloadable x-day free trial, separate one-login test servers, and god knows how many other goodies, that is also a good reason to believe this game can make it Platinum so to say.
all in all, keep up the good work, no matter what side you are on ;)
considering that the main role for this forums is to help the devs its good that all the answers are oriented toward that goal.
as far as i am concerned, i will help out by promoting any Guild SW initiative in my area as far as i can, and i do have some meaningfull tools. but that will not be enough.
there are some important issues that will not be shared with us though. it is important for example what expectations the publisher has from this game as an "enterprise".
since the effort was mainly from Guild Software, if the publisher doesn't care too much about the figures at day-0 and if the guys at Guild Software will not be dissapointed by a 200 player base in the first month (wich i consider EXTREMELY small) then we are in for a long and interesting ride.
then, if the marketing policies will include various promotion tools like partnerships, web plugins for guilds, downloadable x-day free trial, separate one-login test servers, and god knows how many other goodies, that is also a good reason to believe this game can make it Platinum so to say.
all in all, keep up the good work, no matter what side you are on ;)
These are good points and questions.
The point that I want to leave people with today is that even though Vendetta will be released soon (and not "Soon") it isn't done.
Vendetta has gone about as far as it can go without some outside funding. There is still a lot of content that the devs want to add. Remember that Vendetta is their baby. This isn't some get-rich-quick scheme.
Keep in mind all that guild has been able to do over the years, without ever turning the game off or asking for even a nominal fee. They can easily make this all work if they get some capital moving in.
Much has been made of the low number of players. Yes, 5700 beta invites were sent out, but many of those were gobbled by spam-blockers or mired in seldom used / invalid email accounts. Only a small portion of the people invited ever logged on. Of those that logged on, some were seeking to play a finished game for free and were not willing to tolerate a beta-test environment. Other folks are not playing because they don't see a point in leveling because of the upcoming reset (I'd ask those people to just log in and aggressively hunt for bugs), or because they won't be subscribing. Given the fact that it's a closed beta, that most of the 5700 invitees have never laid eyes on Vendetta, that there is natural attrition, and little advertising, the low numbers are no suprise.
I *know* the devs are committed to making Vendetta great.
A note regarding concerns about the publisher: Strategy First is guild's partner in getting the game out into the world, but they do not control Vendetta or guild software. guild and the devs will be in charge of Vendetta, just as before.
The point that I want to leave people with today is that even though Vendetta will be released soon (and not "Soon") it isn't done.
Vendetta has gone about as far as it can go without some outside funding. There is still a lot of content that the devs want to add. Remember that Vendetta is their baby. This isn't some get-rich-quick scheme.
Keep in mind all that guild has been able to do over the years, without ever turning the game off or asking for even a nominal fee. They can easily make this all work if they get some capital moving in.
Much has been made of the low number of players. Yes, 5700 beta invites were sent out, but many of those were gobbled by spam-blockers or mired in seldom used / invalid email accounts. Only a small portion of the people invited ever logged on. Of those that logged on, some were seeking to play a finished game for free and were not willing to tolerate a beta-test environment. Other folks are not playing because they don't see a point in leveling because of the upcoming reset (I'd ask those people to just log in and aggressively hunt for bugs), or because they won't be subscribing. Given the fact that it's a closed beta, that most of the 5700 invitees have never laid eyes on Vendetta, that there is natural attrition, and little advertising, the low numbers are no suprise.
I *know* the devs are committed to making Vendetta great.
A note regarding concerns about the publisher: Strategy First is guild's partner in getting the game out into the world, but they do not control Vendetta or guild software. guild and the devs will be in charge of Vendetta, just as before.
The game engine is very close to what will be retail, the game content is not.
There is a whole set of missions that has not been activated. The levels are quite likely to be reworked for release, as too much stuff is availible too early. The missions will be more important to gaining equipment than the levels anyway according to the interviews that incarnate did over the past several months.
I will say this, all of the devs have ALWAYS been extremely careful not to promise anything they couldnt deliver. I dont see them starting to do that now, which tells me that the mission system, and as such the content, will be in place by release. (maybe only a day before release, possibly still a bit buggy, maybe not all trees will be availible right away; but it will be there.)
As far as the number of players is concerned, Guild sent out something like 5000 beta keys, of which maybe 500 to 1000 people actually logged in, based on the number of names i saw ingame.
A lot of those people would have expected a finished game, as most companies release a "beta" as a marketing ploy to showcase a game, not to do any real testing.
Those people may have been dissapointed, and well, thats life, IMO guild would have been better off doing a closed beta and screening the new testers, but there are only 4 of them and they didnt have time for that.
I hope vendetta is a success, They dont need a huge playerbase to continue to work on the game, just enough players to allow them to pay the bills and stuff :). They are targeting a niche market, they are releasing earlier in the development cycle than they probably would have liked, and they still have a game that has more potential than anything i have ever played in 25 years of computer gaming.
There is a whole set of missions that has not been activated. The levels are quite likely to be reworked for release, as too much stuff is availible too early. The missions will be more important to gaining equipment than the levels anyway according to the interviews that incarnate did over the past several months.
I will say this, all of the devs have ALWAYS been extremely careful not to promise anything they couldnt deliver. I dont see them starting to do that now, which tells me that the mission system, and as such the content, will be in place by release. (maybe only a day before release, possibly still a bit buggy, maybe not all trees will be availible right away; but it will be there.)
As far as the number of players is concerned, Guild sent out something like 5000 beta keys, of which maybe 500 to 1000 people actually logged in, based on the number of names i saw ingame.
A lot of those people would have expected a finished game, as most companies release a "beta" as a marketing ploy to showcase a game, not to do any real testing.
Those people may have been dissapointed, and well, thats life, IMO guild would have been better off doing a closed beta and screening the new testers, but there are only 4 of them and they didnt have time for that.
I hope vendetta is a success, They dont need a huge playerbase to continue to work on the game, just enough players to allow them to pay the bills and stuff :). They are targeting a niche market, they are releasing earlier in the development cycle than they probably would have liked, and they still have a game that has more potential than anything i have ever played in 25 years of computer gaming.
"I know about the roleplay boards Celkan, I've had a nosey in there :-)"
The "Verdandi incident" that he's referring to is... more in-depth... I'll stop before SF goes insane again. :P
The "Verdandi incident" that he's referring to is... more in-depth... I'll stop before SF goes insane again. :P
Heh. That was certainly RP...
for the rest of the testers that didn't login... i feel sorry for them. they are missing out on a great game as well as a great community. with that said, it is my opinion that a community with this much passion will not allow vendetta to go down without a fight! everyone talks about how their are only 4 devs and how they are going crazy doing everything, well what about the users here? what have we done to help out? i for one will be doing as much recruiting as i can for this game and i hope you will all be doing the same!
i am excitited about the pre-release and can not wait to get my hands on the key code as well as start playing those new missions. i would imagine that the devs will still keep an ear out for any possible bugs and opinions well after the game is launched. so just because the beta is over, doesn't mean our assistance is useless! :)
and for those of you who are not playing because you don't want to lvl up.... play anyway and join us in the convoys... a little pvp is what you need! come find me, Sebastion, current and future soldier of Serco! :D
btw, if i am wrong about any of this, feel free to tell me as i will be happy to shut my mouth and keep my opinions to myself.
i am excitited about the pre-release and can not wait to get my hands on the key code as well as start playing those new missions. i would imagine that the devs will still keep an ear out for any possible bugs and opinions well after the game is launched. so just because the beta is over, doesn't mean our assistance is useless! :)
and for those of you who are not playing because you don't want to lvl up.... play anyway and join us in the convoys... a little pvp is what you need! come find me, Sebastion, current and future soldier of Serco! :D
btw, if i am wrong about any of this, feel free to tell me as i will be happy to shut my mouth and keep my opinions to myself.