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actually, even if you dogfight "properly", get down to 15% and then boost away, You can get away with the current system. Thats neither Ram'n'run or constant-reverse battle tactic, its a mere fact about how the current way of turbo+energy is laid out.
Well those tactics were the two extremes. I figured if you fix them you'd fix everything in the middle.
If a ship is badly damaged I wouldn't expect it to be able to fly away at full turbo speed. Maybe we should have component damage rather than simple hull damage, based on where the hit occured. If you attempt to run and get hit in the ass then you got some serious engine damage there... No-one remember Wing Commander where you had shields and physical armour (which varied in strength on front/back/sides), and if they both got breached you'd start getting component damage?
Thats a point, Icarus. And I'm quite sure the game would scale to it with some work, but I doubt that it would fit into the current timeframe, and my mood right now tells me "this ought to get solved, someway"
seems like it'd be an easy process to make how dmg your rear section is have an effect on performance. The code seems to already be inplace to detect where hits are coming from and how dmg sections of your ship are.
I'd make it so that if your engines are yellow, you get like a 10% decrease in performance, if they are red, you get a 35% decrease in performance. Thats enough to make flight and combat possible still, but make you unlikely to escape.
I'd make it so that if your engines are yellow, you get like a 10% decrease in performance, if they are red, you get a 35% decrease in performance. Thats enough to make flight and combat possible still, but make you unlikely to escape.
What do I like about Vendetta PvP combat??? That it's on the other side of the universe! :-D
Agreed.
I found this game a long time ago (about year and half ago) and was trying to "get into combat" for a few times. - It still feels completly alien to me.
And that despite the fact that I am pretty good with twitch based gaming ( Descent, CS, UT , JK2+JKA, Planetside ). I am also good in IL2 multiplayer (WW2 planes simulator) and played majority of space simulators on the market since the earliest ones (wing commander ,privateer ,x-wing,freespace ,independence war etc....). - See I am not a newbie in 3d dimension multiplayer games with varied degrees of movements .
Yet in vendetta the overall feel is just strange and completely disorienting .
I am afraid that could be a downfall of a game -there is one example on the market already- Jumpgate. It also had counter- intuitive combat mechanics (yet twitch based too). -A lot of space sim fans expect to find some familiar twitch
mechanics - and they will be dissapointed and frustrated from the very beggining by completely alien and foreign vendetta system.
There is also other market - MMORPG players (and I happen to be a hardcore mmorpg player ,who played and beta tested absolute majority of games on the market) , but a lot of mmorpg players are not really into pure twitch combat and crave for depth of in-game systems ( player run economics ,crafting , guilds , complex social structures ,etc)
I frankly was hoping for something like EvE- Online with more interesting combat, yet I found some jumpgate clone in early stages of development .
What a pity though -as from technical point of view vendetta has pretty graphics , stable server adn pretty polished client (which surprised me a lot considering early stage of development)
And that despite the fact that I am pretty good with twitch based gaming ( Descent, CS, UT , JK2+JKA, Planetside ). I am also good in IL2 multiplayer (WW2 planes simulator) and played majority of space simulators on the market since the earliest ones (wing commander ,privateer ,x-wing,freespace ,independence war etc....). - See I am not a newbie in 3d dimension multiplayer games with varied degrees of movements .
Yet in vendetta the overall feel is just strange and completely disorienting .
I am afraid that could be a downfall of a game -there is one example on the market already- Jumpgate. It also had counter- intuitive combat mechanics (yet twitch based too). -A lot of space sim fans expect to find some familiar twitch
mechanics - and they will be dissapointed and frustrated from the very beggining by completely alien and foreign vendetta system.
There is also other market - MMORPG players (and I happen to be a hardcore mmorpg player ,who played and beta tested absolute majority of games on the market) , but a lot of mmorpg players are not really into pure twitch combat and crave for depth of in-game systems ( player run economics ,crafting , guilds , complex social structures ,etc)
I frankly was hoping for something like EvE- Online with more interesting combat, yet I found some jumpgate clone in early stages of development .
What a pity though -as from technical point of view vendetta has pretty graphics , stable server adn pretty polished client (which surprised me a lot considering early stage of development)
What control method do you use when you play the other 3d space sims, and what do you use in Vendetta? I ask because I have played pretty much the same range of games as you have, and I ordinarily prefer a joystick control, but with Vendetta I have to use keys and mouse...
Wing Commander, Privateer, X-wing, (unsure about Freespace), all use a more flight-sim based flight-model. In fact if you look closely at the Privateer and XWing flight model, when you rotate your ship left or right it forces you to roll slightly too.. they added that in to make it "feel" better even though there is no physical grounds for that to happen.. Also i think you turn faster if your speed is greater, which again is bullshit, but it makes it easier for the flight-sim maniacs.. I suggest you try playing EliteII, and see what you think of the very realistic flight model in that ;-) Vendetta is closer to that than the more flight-sim based space games IMHO...
"a lot of mmorpg players are not really into pure twitch combat and crave for depth of in-game systems"
ok whatever, personally I have never really got into MMORPG'ing simply bcos there are so few decent MMORPG's that are twitch based, and I find crafting, guilds, economics boring as hell... So the fact that you say more players are not into twitch based MMORPG's might have something todo with the the way there is hardly any currently like this, most MMORPG developers take the easy option of a turn-based or strategy-based game, as your game can be technically lame but it will still peform ok over the net...
Wing Commander, Privateer, X-wing, (unsure about Freespace), all use a more flight-sim based flight-model. In fact if you look closely at the Privateer and XWing flight model, when you rotate your ship left or right it forces you to roll slightly too.. they added that in to make it "feel" better even though there is no physical grounds for that to happen.. Also i think you turn faster if your speed is greater, which again is bullshit, but it makes it easier for the flight-sim maniacs.. I suggest you try playing EliteII, and see what you think of the very realistic flight model in that ;-) Vendetta is closer to that than the more flight-sim based space games IMHO...
"a lot of mmorpg players are not really into pure twitch combat and crave for depth of in-game systems"
ok whatever, personally I have never really got into MMORPG'ing simply bcos there are so few decent MMORPG's that are twitch based, and I find crafting, guilds, economics boring as hell... So the fact that you say more players are not into twitch based MMORPG's might have something todo with the the way there is hardly any currently like this, most MMORPG developers take the easy option of a turn-based or strategy-based game, as your game can be technically lame but it will still peform ok over the net...
"I find crafting, guilds, economics boring as hell..."
Hear-hear!
Give us ZE BLOOD!
Seriously though, I personally found the vendetta flight system intuitive, and easy. I'd mastered flying around aimlessly in a matter of minutes from first logging-on, and had killed my first bot within the hour. After a bit of botting, I figured learining physics mode might be a good idea, so I did, and that took me two days (At least to get to the point of killing a few simple bots)
It's hard for me to see how anyone could have as much trouble with it as you do, but with a bit of straining I certainly can imagine it.
Hear-hear!
Give us ZE BLOOD!
Seriously though, I personally found the vendetta flight system intuitive, and easy. I'd mastered flying around aimlessly in a matter of minutes from first logging-on, and had killed my first bot within the hour. After a bit of botting, I figured learining physics mode might be a good idea, so I did, and that took me two days (At least to get to the point of killing a few simple bots)
It's hard for me to see how anyone could have as much trouble with it as you do, but with a bit of straining I certainly can imagine it.
I guess some have it.. and some just don't... ;-)
DarkMadMax - Vendetta uses Newtonian mechanics for the most part. If that feels disorienting, take some physics classes.
I agree on Icarus for the second part, about the lack of twitch-based MMORPGs, but not so much the first part, about the different flight models. I really don't mind the fact that the ship doesn't act like a jet fighter, since that's more of a Hollywood thing than anything else, but I do believe that the control method needs to be improved. The wobble is the thing that bothers me the most. While tweaking the damper values helps somewhat, it's still not as good as most other space combat sims which provide a way of mouse aiming without the wobble.
he mentions jumpgate as a failure, yet i have been playing that game for the last 3 1/2 years and it is probably the best gameplay/flight model space sim i've ever played. the way they handled drag, thrust/mass, afterburner, and the 'nitros' like flashfires, creates so much diversity in tactics and manuevering. Difficult to master, but once you 'get it' you can really do some awesomely impressive stuff.
He says Vendetta copied their system from JG but Vendetta's is totally 100% different. So different that I cant decide if it's better or not yet, but I have a feeling it isn't. With the limited options that 'Turbo' gives you as a mix between flashfires and afterburner, the easy fleeing of ships from what I understand, and the lack of mommentum carrying your weight, I simply dont see how the combat can be anywhere as skillful or technical as Jumpgate.
But then again, i'm just a stupid n00b and havent actually been in any PvP battles yet, so eh... we'll see. I'll reserve my judgement/suggestions until I get into battle.
He says Vendetta copied their system from JG but Vendetta's is totally 100% different. So different that I cant decide if it's better or not yet, but I have a feeling it isn't. With the limited options that 'Turbo' gives you as a mix between flashfires and afterburner, the easy fleeing of ships from what I understand, and the lack of mommentum carrying your weight, I simply dont see how the combat can be anywhere as skillful or technical as Jumpgate.
But then again, i'm just a stupid n00b and havent actually been in any PvP battles yet, so eh... we'll see. I'll reserve my judgement/suggestions until I get into battle.
"
Wing Commander, Privateer, X-wing, (unsure about Freespace), all use a more flight-sim based flight-model. In fact if you look closely at the Privateer and XWing flight model, when you rotate your ship left or right it forces you to roll slightly too.. they added that in to make it "feel" better even though there is no physical grounds for that to happen.. Also i think you turn faster if your speed is greater, which again is bullshit, but it makes it easier for the flight-sim maniacs"
Well you know that "unrealistic" flight combat model in X-wing (and its descendants) ,Privateer ,Freespace etc was a conscious decision by designers? - Yes it is completely unrealisitc ,but its the most fun model for the majority of players. Freespace 2 was named on of the best combat space sims ever made -and rightfully so. - This "unrealistic" flight combat system happens to be one of the most fun , dynamic and entertaining systems in computer games.
And I do play elite (actually all 3 of them ) . I never liked combat in Elite 2 and 3. But I enjoyed the game for its huge universe , freedom of actions , nice backgrounds story and setting (which vendetta sadly doesnt have).
"ok whatever, personally I have never really got into MMORPG'ing simply bcos there are so few decent MMORPG's that are twitch based, and I find crafting, guilds, economics boring as hell...
"
MMORPG's have what vendetta doesnt - content and much wider possibilty of what you are able to do. Vendetta is a shell of a world - no story , no background , only some stations in space and some bots here and there. There is very little to discover about the world ,very little to do in it. I mean whats the point of having combat in vendetta?- just for the sake of combat? Not for territory control ,not for guild competition -just because one is blue and other is red?
Look what vendetta has? - a twitch based combat. What else? - no real quests , no dynamic market (so being merchant or smuggler would be remotely interesting) .No player run content (such as owning your own station ,factory ,shipyard), no player made quests (such as in-game bounty system). It is more like a just another Multiplayer game ,and most of them are more fun in basic combat (such as Allegiance for example).
Wing Commander, Privateer, X-wing, (unsure about Freespace), all use a more flight-sim based flight-model. In fact if you look closely at the Privateer and XWing flight model, when you rotate your ship left or right it forces you to roll slightly too.. they added that in to make it "feel" better even though there is no physical grounds for that to happen.. Also i think you turn faster if your speed is greater, which again is bullshit, but it makes it easier for the flight-sim maniacs"
Well you know that "unrealistic" flight combat model in X-wing (and its descendants) ,Privateer ,Freespace etc was a conscious decision by designers? - Yes it is completely unrealisitc ,but its the most fun model for the majority of players. Freespace 2 was named on of the best combat space sims ever made -and rightfully so. - This "unrealistic" flight combat system happens to be one of the most fun , dynamic and entertaining systems in computer games.
And I do play elite (actually all 3 of them ) . I never liked combat in Elite 2 and 3. But I enjoyed the game for its huge universe , freedom of actions , nice backgrounds story and setting (which vendetta sadly doesnt have).
"ok whatever, personally I have never really got into MMORPG'ing simply bcos there are so few decent MMORPG's that are twitch based, and I find crafting, guilds, economics boring as hell...
"
MMORPG's have what vendetta doesnt - content and much wider possibilty of what you are able to do. Vendetta is a shell of a world - no story , no background , only some stations in space and some bots here and there. There is very little to discover about the world ,very little to do in it. I mean whats the point of having combat in vendetta?- just for the sake of combat? Not for territory control ,not for guild competition -just because one is blue and other is red?
Look what vendetta has? - a twitch based combat. What else? - no real quests , no dynamic market (so being merchant or smuggler would be remotely interesting) .No player run content (such as owning your own station ,factory ,shipyard), no player made quests (such as in-game bounty system). It is more like a just another Multiplayer game ,and most of them are more fun in basic combat (such as Allegiance for example).
... You do realize that the devs haven't added any content yet, right? This isn't the final game.
I too wonder where the combat system will take Vendetta. When I first joined (and introduced one or two of my friends to the game) I thought it might be too complicated/difficult for the masses to master. It's far too late to change that now short of scrapping the past few years of the devs lives, so I think attacking the flight-system is pointless. That's the way it is, for better or for worse.
The balance of that system itself definately needs tweaking. Running was always nearly impossible to counter without sunflares, and now that you can boost forever it truly is impossible to catch someone unless they really mess up.
So the game needs work. I think we all knew that already :P
I too wonder where the combat system will take Vendetta. When I first joined (and introduced one or two of my friends to the game) I thought it might be too complicated/difficult for the masses to master. It's far too late to change that now short of scrapping the past few years of the devs lives, so I think attacking the flight-system is pointless. That's the way it is, for better or for worse.
The balance of that system itself definately needs tweaking. Running was always nearly impossible to counter without sunflares, and now that you can boost forever it truly is impossible to catch someone unless they really mess up.
So the game needs work. I think we all knew that already :P
Dear DarkMadMax
I am very frustrated now. The reason I am frustrated is because I read your post.
In fact, I can see why most developers keep their betas and engine tests. (Hint: It's to avoid people like you.)
I am very frustrated now. The reason I am frustrated is because I read your post.
In fact, I can see why most developers keep their betas and engine tests. (Hint: It's to avoid people like you.)
Genka, don't flame, it isn't nice.
DarkMadMax is entitled to his opinion, and he made his proclamation based upon what he's seen in game so far. Perhaps he doesn't read the newspost. It isn't his responsibility to do so. Perhaps he doesn't have the time to envelop himself in the community the way you and I have, that is also not his responsibility. What is his responsibility is to give feedback, which he is doing. That it comes from a different point of view than that of the immersed tester is testament to the efficacy of the beta system. People will be approaching Vendetta Online from all angles, and lack of content is a major concern for any near-launch MMORPG.
DarkMadMax is entitled to his opinion, and he made his proclamation based upon what he's seen in game so far. Perhaps he doesn't read the newspost. It isn't his responsibility to do so. Perhaps he doesn't have the time to envelop himself in the community the way you and I have, that is also not his responsibility. What is his responsibility is to give feedback, which he is doing. That it comes from a different point of view than that of the immersed tester is testament to the efficacy of the beta system. People will be approaching Vendetta Online from all angles, and lack of content is a major concern for any near-launch MMORPG.
I just think it would be nice for people to read the TEST part of Vendetta Test. I mean it says BETA right in the freaking updater. People just need to realise this, the game is not complete, chances are you wont get the devs to change major parts of the game, lots of content you see ingame is simply there to test functionality (ie missions are simple so it is easy to test the basic system), and that there IS a storyline we just dont get it yet.
ctishman...agreed on all points except that DarkMadMax started describing the differences of flight mechanics between the various games. To my knowledge, the flight mechanics in Vendetta are pretty well fixed for launch (I can allow for some minor tweeking if needed).
I find that the controls are very intuitive, much more so than other sims/games I've been in. The authenticity of the mechanics (with the exception of mantained velocity - for reasons described by the Devs) is very well implemented...again, much better than other sims/games I've been in.
It seems that DarkMadMax and myself/others have a difference of opinion about the Vendetta Engine. I, for one, am quite optimistic that it will be readily embraced by gamers and a very successful engine.
I find that the controls are very intuitive, much more so than other sims/games I've been in. The authenticity of the mechanics (with the exception of mantained velocity - for reasons described by the Devs) is very well implemented...again, much better than other sims/games I've been in.
It seems that DarkMadMax and myself/others have a difference of opinion about the Vendetta Engine. I, for one, am quite optimistic that it will be readily embraced by gamers and a very successful engine.