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If you do something like this:
alias turretOn "+ActivateTurrets; echo turrets on; alias turretToggle turretOff"
alias turretOff "-ActivateTurrets; echo turrets off; alias turretToggle turretOn"
alias turretToggle turretOn
Then do something like this:
alias t1 "enterturret 1"
alias reload "t1; wait 1 activate"
bind F1 reload
bind F2 turretOn
Any tactic that involves this kinda crap (or plugins) is BS and shouldn't be considered a viable option, even if it is possible.
Rejected makes a lot of great points.
alias turretOn "+ActivateTurrets; echo turrets on; alias turretToggle turretOff"
alias turretOff "-ActivateTurrets; echo turrets off; alias turretToggle turretOn"
alias turretToggle turretOn
Then do something like this:
alias t1 "enterturret 1"
alias reload "t1; wait 1 activate"
bind F1 reload
bind F2 turretOn
Any tactic that involves this kinda crap (or plugins) is BS and shouldn't be considered a viable option, even if it is possible.
Rejected makes a lot of great points.
Any tactic that involves this kinda crap (or plugins) is BS and shouldn't be considered a viable option, even if it is possible.
Could you expand on that please? This tactic uses commands that built into the game.
enterturret # is built into the game
activate is built into the game
+activateturrets is built into the game.
Zero plugins are needed for this.
Why do you consider commands that part of VO to be "BS"?
Could you expand on that please? This tactic uses commands that built into the game.
enterturret # is built into the game
activate is built into the game
+activateturrets is built into the game.
Zero plugins are needed for this.
Why do you consider commands that part of VO to be "BS"?
I'll give you that it's kinda clunkey to implement greenwall, but it is simple to use once in place, and for now, probably the best we can do with the game as it is presently.
Those of you who say "hire an escort" don't seem to realize that hiring an escort is nearly impossible.
I don't buy into this. The largest, most powerful, best-organized guilds in the game have historically always been the trade guilds (no offense to others).
Once upon a time, in earlier days of VO, every pirate had to know how to trade, and every trader had to know how to fight. People had preferences, but you would still see Lecter running around the universe in a lightly-armed Atlas, trying to build up credits between bouts of piracy and PvP. It was an interesting opportunity to turn the tables on the pirates, if you found them during "trading time" (can still happen today, to a limited extent, but was much more pervasive back then).
A lot of different things changed since then, some of them good, some less-so, but one result is that people have tended to become more hardened into their "roles". Trader. Pirate. Miner. Whatever. More to the point:
There is no reason that a well-organized guild can't set up "Escorted Trading Hours", match up available times between players, and try to get guild members online to run escorts for one another.
Maybe "person A" is an escort on one route, while "person B" flies their capship, but the next time they swap positions.
Traders don't actually need to be as-good at PvP as the pirates are, because it's easier to be defensive cannon-fodder and "distract" from a capship long enough for them to jump away. Plus, you're probably keeping the PCBs off the ship, and the capship is potshotting swarms and things in the meantime.
The end-result is gameplay that's actually more interesting for everyone. Traders get to help each other out, and they don't have to leak their plans outside of the guild. Pirates get a more interesting tactical experience, which is usually what they want anyway. More people actually end up playing together, at the same time.
To me, that's much more interesting than overshielded over-stuffed cargo carriers, flying solo with impunity through grayspace, to generate billions of credits for no apparent reason.
Generally, the biggest capship traders are guilded-up anyway, and this is an excellent use case for exactly that kind of logistical organization that Guilds provide.
As I've said before, the only certainty in VO is change. VO players are expected to "Adapt, Improvise and Overcome". While we're always willing to listen to feedback about addons and game-tweaks: the answer to "X is now more challenging" is not simply "the game is broken".
I don't buy into this. The largest, most powerful, best-organized guilds in the game have historically always been the trade guilds (no offense to others).
Once upon a time, in earlier days of VO, every pirate had to know how to trade, and every trader had to know how to fight. People had preferences, but you would still see Lecter running around the universe in a lightly-armed Atlas, trying to build up credits between bouts of piracy and PvP. It was an interesting opportunity to turn the tables on the pirates, if you found them during "trading time" (can still happen today, to a limited extent, but was much more pervasive back then).
A lot of different things changed since then, some of them good, some less-so, but one result is that people have tended to become more hardened into their "roles". Trader. Pirate. Miner. Whatever. More to the point:
There is no reason that a well-organized guild can't set up "Escorted Trading Hours", match up available times between players, and try to get guild members online to run escorts for one another.
Maybe "person A" is an escort on one route, while "person B" flies their capship, but the next time they swap positions.
Traders don't actually need to be as-good at PvP as the pirates are, because it's easier to be defensive cannon-fodder and "distract" from a capship long enough for them to jump away. Plus, you're probably keeping the PCBs off the ship, and the capship is potshotting swarms and things in the meantime.
The end-result is gameplay that's actually more interesting for everyone. Traders get to help each other out, and they don't have to leak their plans outside of the guild. Pirates get a more interesting tactical experience, which is usually what they want anyway. More people actually end up playing together, at the same time.
To me, that's much more interesting than overshielded over-stuffed cargo carriers, flying solo with impunity through grayspace, to generate billions of credits for no apparent reason.
Generally, the biggest capship traders are guilded-up anyway, and this is an excellent use case for exactly that kind of logistical organization that Guilds provide.
As I've said before, the only certainty in VO is change. VO players are expected to "Adapt, Improvise and Overcome". While we're always willing to listen to feedback about addons and game-tweaks: the answer to "X is now more challenging" is not simply "the game is broken".
There is no reason that a well-organized guild can't set up "Escorted Trading Hours", match up available times between players, and try to get guild members online to run escorts for one another.
Anyone who plays the game knows there is (are) absolutely reason(s) for even the most well organized of current guilds to NOT set up coordinated, scheduled escorts. Many many people play VO only as time allows. Not everyone, but most people. Certainly most people I've ever played with over the course of 800 years have only every been able to give a very loose commitment.
Capship escorting in particular usually requires at minimum a 30 minute hard commitment (as you don't want someone to lose their entire ship of expensive crap because dinner is ready early), which is a long time during busy periods of the day.
Some guilds manage to make it happen, but is it scheduled far in advance, or often? I highly doubt it.
Moreover, even if a Trade guild does manage to piece together a motley escort, chances are pretty slim that anyone who sucks at PVP is going to make any bit of difference against experienced pirates or adversaries. It's very easy to evade newbs while you are PCBing a capship, and if landing that PCB is the goal, you can be damn sure an experienced pirate isn't going to waste time engaging traders who can't aim straight if there is a capship to be demolished.
That being said, I think there definitely is something to be understood here in terms of history and the future. Historically escorting capships was a very common practice, as it was before that escorting XCs. If you had precious cargo, you would be stupid to traipse through greyspace without a lookout. As capships became more formidable we got used to sailing solo, but now that's getting dialed back. This is good. It's a painfully slow attempt to balance things, but it's balance nonetheless.
I realize it's a hard pill to swallow if you are in the middle of some project that relies upon hauling crap through space in a capship and you don't have any reliable escorts. Someday when the zillions of players flock to VO that will hopefully be less of an issue. But until then you need to adapt.
Take a lesson from TheRedSpy. He decided that rather than rely upon unreliable escorts, he could build his trident if he did all his work on an EMS alt because nobody shot EMS.
Anyone who plays the game knows there is (are) absolutely reason(s) for even the most well organized of current guilds to NOT set up coordinated, scheduled escorts. Many many people play VO only as time allows. Not everyone, but most people. Certainly most people I've ever played with over the course of 800 years have only every been able to give a very loose commitment.
Capship escorting in particular usually requires at minimum a 30 minute hard commitment (as you don't want someone to lose their entire ship of expensive crap because dinner is ready early), which is a long time during busy periods of the day.
Some guilds manage to make it happen, but is it scheduled far in advance, or often? I highly doubt it.
Moreover, even if a Trade guild does manage to piece together a motley escort, chances are pretty slim that anyone who sucks at PVP is going to make any bit of difference against experienced pirates or adversaries. It's very easy to evade newbs while you are PCBing a capship, and if landing that PCB is the goal, you can be damn sure an experienced pirate isn't going to waste time engaging traders who can't aim straight if there is a capship to be demolished.
That being said, I think there definitely is something to be understood here in terms of history and the future. Historically escorting capships was a very common practice, as it was before that escorting XCs. If you had precious cargo, you would be stupid to traipse through greyspace without a lookout. As capships became more formidable we got used to sailing solo, but now that's getting dialed back. This is good. It's a painfully slow attempt to balance things, but it's balance nonetheless.
I realize it's a hard pill to swallow if you are in the middle of some project that relies upon hauling crap through space in a capship and you don't have any reliable escorts. Someday when the zillions of players flock to VO that will hopefully be less of an issue. But until then you need to adapt.
Take a lesson from TheRedSpy. He decided that rather than rely upon unreliable escorts, he could build his trident if he did all his work on an EMS alt because nobody shot EMS.
The part where the plans don't get leaked outside the guild is pretty tough to especially with a large guild
The part where the plans don't get leaked outside the guild is pretty tough to especially with a large guild
A large enough guild with enough capital ships will just steam roll any threat. Even if the plans got out.
A large enough guild with enough capital ships will just steam roll any threat. Even if the plans got out.
Exactly my point. The guilds with the most organization and organization will win. It's plain and simple. We aren't talking about meta fits and what to fit on your trident to defend.
VO is changing it will become more risky to do things. It has been a long time since people experienced risk. I remember when I was first starting VO FAMY camped edras/latos every day. The dynamic has changed since then but this is really an adapt or die moment of thing here.
Incarnate is right people are really rigid about what they do. Look at the big picture from a game design perspective. Cap ships are meant to foster these kinds of group activities. Real Life is a personal equation for a guild. Not for a game designer who want's to foster more group play.
Guilds are supposed to group up and help each other out and cap ships is what fosters this. In turn makes for an interesting game as Incarnate stated.
VO is changing it will become more risky to do things. It has been a long time since people experienced risk. I remember when I was first starting VO FAMY camped edras/latos every day. The dynamic has changed since then but this is really an adapt or die moment of thing here.
Incarnate is right people are really rigid about what they do. Look at the big picture from a game design perspective. Cap ships are meant to foster these kinds of group activities. Real Life is a personal equation for a guild. Not for a game designer who want's to foster more group play.
Guilds are supposed to group up and help each other out and cap ships is what fosters this. In turn makes for an interesting game as Incarnate stated.
Anyone who plays the game knows there is (are) absolutely reason(s) for even the most well organized of current guilds to NOT set up coordinated, scheduled escorts. Many many people play VO only as time allows. Not everyone, but most people. Certainly most people I've ever played with over the course of 800 years have only every been able to give a very loose commitment.
We aren't talking about "far-advanced, scheduled coordination of an entire guild", we're talking about match-making of *two* people who are willing to show up for half an hour, for each other.
There are no "reasons" that rule that out, or make that impossible, or even unreasonably difficult. Going to my point, this is exactly what guilds are good at. Whether they've been doing that in the past is irrelevant. It's still entirely feasible.
Moreover, even if a Trade guild does manage to piece together a motley escort, chances are pretty slim that anyone who sucks at PVP is going to make any bit of difference against experienced pirates or adversaries.
We know that isn't true. You know how we can tell? Because this entire kerfuffle was created by capship-mounted Swarms becoming vulnerable to PCB attacks. The entire value added by the swarm was to keep an attacker at bay, to provide sufficient distraction to give some relief to a capship, perhaps even allow them to escape.
This exact same value can be served by a smaller ship, also outfitted with swarms. The missiles have the same flight characteristics as the ones attached to capships. They offer the same defensive capabilities, place the same pressure on their target, and require exactly as much "fighting skill" as the capship variants ever did.
Avoiding swarms, even in quantity, is trivial for a PvP player. Avoiding them while maintaining sustained fire on a target, at a DpS rate required to continually deplete their powercell.. that can be a bit different.
So, at minimum entry-level, a second ship with someone who has the ability to "press a button" is putting you back on roughly the same level you occupied prior to the change that is causing this debate over "tactics". And that's with someone who has basically no PvP ability whatsoever.
And yet, I would say that someone dedicated to protecting fellow-traders, and asking them for protection in return, might actually improve their PvP abilities to something above "pressing a button", in which case they might easily be more useful than you describe.
Plus, the trader doesn't even have to give up any cargo capacity. They just have to.. make friends? In their guild? It doesn't have to be for every possible trade run, but it could be for the higher-value ones.
The part where the plans don't get leaked outside the guild is pretty tough to especially with a large guild
Then one has to practice information control. Guilds can do basic matchmaking ("I usually play in the evening, Eastern Time"). They can also schedule larger-scale events and the like, but a lot of my point here was to help two people, who have similar schedules, to find one another. They can then decide on critical timing on a one-on-one basis. The fact that they're both active traders, and members of the same guild, still establishes a better baseline of trust than one might find with a total-stranger.
If two people both want to move content around in their capships, and they are dependent on one-another for defenses, it's reasonable that there may be a "watch his back, so that he'll watch mine" kind of exchange that's understood.
That's one of the problems with classical "hiring of escorts".. there's no mutual dependence. They hope to be paid, perhaps, but that's a tenuous goal; particularly when compared to two people running capship-parts across the galaxy, who have shared-goals, and are actually depending on one another.
This is not the only potential tactic, of course, I was just looking to throw out a single-response to a single-criticism, to point out there are always other options and possibilities. (Greenwall's "EMS" example is another outside-the-box thought).
Most guilds in most other MMORPGs are best-known for organizing major "guild raids", with dozens of people. We're just talking about two, here. It doesn't seem that impossible.
And if someone would rather roll the dice and take-the-risk running solo, then that's their choice as well. But it is a risk, and should come with an expectation of risk.
A lot of things have fundamentally changed about the technical implementation and basic functionality capital ships, in the last six months. Far more than you've seen. A lot of gameplay that previously existed was simply the "best gameplay-hack that was stable at the time". Now we're finally able to start moving beyond that, but quite a lot of technical work was required.
Capships will continue to become better, and also worse, and also more important, with greater value and also greater costs and uncertainties. A lot of change is going to come, and each iteration will require tactical adaptation and improvising to a new set of realities.
We aren't talking about "far-advanced, scheduled coordination of an entire guild", we're talking about match-making of *two* people who are willing to show up for half an hour, for each other.
There are no "reasons" that rule that out, or make that impossible, or even unreasonably difficult. Going to my point, this is exactly what guilds are good at. Whether they've been doing that in the past is irrelevant. It's still entirely feasible.
Moreover, even if a Trade guild does manage to piece together a motley escort, chances are pretty slim that anyone who sucks at PVP is going to make any bit of difference against experienced pirates or adversaries.
We know that isn't true. You know how we can tell? Because this entire kerfuffle was created by capship-mounted Swarms becoming vulnerable to PCB attacks. The entire value added by the swarm was to keep an attacker at bay, to provide sufficient distraction to give some relief to a capship, perhaps even allow them to escape.
This exact same value can be served by a smaller ship, also outfitted with swarms. The missiles have the same flight characteristics as the ones attached to capships. They offer the same defensive capabilities, place the same pressure on their target, and require exactly as much "fighting skill" as the capship variants ever did.
Avoiding swarms, even in quantity, is trivial for a PvP player. Avoiding them while maintaining sustained fire on a target, at a DpS rate required to continually deplete their powercell.. that can be a bit different.
So, at minimum entry-level, a second ship with someone who has the ability to "press a button" is putting you back on roughly the same level you occupied prior to the change that is causing this debate over "tactics". And that's with someone who has basically no PvP ability whatsoever.
And yet, I would say that someone dedicated to protecting fellow-traders, and asking them for protection in return, might actually improve their PvP abilities to something above "pressing a button", in which case they might easily be more useful than you describe.
Plus, the trader doesn't even have to give up any cargo capacity. They just have to.. make friends? In their guild? It doesn't have to be for every possible trade run, but it could be for the higher-value ones.
The part where the plans don't get leaked outside the guild is pretty tough to especially with a large guild
Then one has to practice information control. Guilds can do basic matchmaking ("I usually play in the evening, Eastern Time"). They can also schedule larger-scale events and the like, but a lot of my point here was to help two people, who have similar schedules, to find one another. They can then decide on critical timing on a one-on-one basis. The fact that they're both active traders, and members of the same guild, still establishes a better baseline of trust than one might find with a total-stranger.
If two people both want to move content around in their capships, and they are dependent on one-another for defenses, it's reasonable that there may be a "watch his back, so that he'll watch mine" kind of exchange that's understood.
That's one of the problems with classical "hiring of escorts".. there's no mutual dependence. They hope to be paid, perhaps, but that's a tenuous goal; particularly when compared to two people running capship-parts across the galaxy, who have shared-goals, and are actually depending on one another.
This is not the only potential tactic, of course, I was just looking to throw out a single-response to a single-criticism, to point out there are always other options and possibilities. (Greenwall's "EMS" example is another outside-the-box thought).
Most guilds in most other MMORPGs are best-known for organizing major "guild raids", with dozens of people. We're just talking about two, here. It doesn't seem that impossible.
And if someone would rather roll the dice and take-the-risk running solo, then that's their choice as well. But it is a risk, and should come with an expectation of risk.
A lot of things have fundamentally changed about the technical implementation and basic functionality capital ships, in the last six months. Far more than you've seen. A lot of gameplay that previously existed was simply the "best gameplay-hack that was stable at the time". Now we're finally able to start moving beyond that, but quite a lot of technical work was required.
Capships will continue to become better, and also worse, and also more important, with greater value and also greater costs and uncertainties. A lot of change is going to come, and each iteration will require tactical adaptation and improvising to a new set of realities.
7. I find mines to be pretty terrible for capship defense. Making the TU mine target-able by NPCs has made it a nearly useless weapon. It used to fit a nice defensive niche against NPC pirates, but our all-knowing devs decided that since people were using lightning mines inappropriately that all mines needed to be nerfed. Mines are one of the few purely defensive weapons and it is a shame that they're being neglected.
Part of the challenge with these discussions, is the general question of how up-to-date people are when they post their feedback.
For instance, the TU mine went through a substantial change in the last month, with 10x more Force now. I've seen some people using it defensively. Particularly in situations with bots, because they target it.
Now, I can't speak to the efficacy, so this doesn't mean it's some kind of perfect defensive panacea, and it's certainly still expensive; but it is an illustration of how gameplay can change quickly, and the best way to be up to date on tactics, is to have played recently.
Part of the challenge with these discussions, is the general question of how up-to-date people are when they post their feedback.
For instance, the TU mine went through a substantial change in the last month, with 10x more Force now. I've seen some people using it defensively. Particularly in situations with bots, because they target it.
Now, I can't speak to the efficacy, so this doesn't mean it's some kind of perfect defensive panacea, and it's certainly still expensive; but it is an illustration of how gameplay can change quickly, and the best way to be up to date on tactics, is to have played recently.
I'd just like to add that TU mines aren't all that expensive considering how easy it is to make credits. A couple xc loads of high value ores will get you near 1 million credits if you are on lite or f2p as will a few weapons trades for full members. Escort missions can pay well too, and you can do those when you are traveling across the verse doing whatever it is you like doing though they are hit or miss for large payouts. Also, selling bot drops like nodules, hive weapons, and sss among other bot drops. Then there are things you can manufacturer and sell.
spend 30mins to just drop 1 mine, heh ok if thats fun for u.
30 minutes to lay one mine? Could you be more specific? Like 30mins of doing escorts to make the credits to reload the TU? 30mins of mining? Trading?
I know for sure escorts pay 500k for just going 1 system over in most cases in UIT space.
I know for sure escorts pay 500k for just going 1 system over in most cases in UIT space.
Even if it took 30 minutes to make 1 mil for 1 mine (though you get 2) that is a lot cheaper and less time consuming than having to pay ship insurance, rebuy or manufacture your weapons, repurchasing all the ships that you overstuffed and putting them in your cap ship again. Not to mention if you want nation specific ships in there having to fly all the way across the verse to buy them. Yeah, I'll gladly spend a million on a TU mine on the off chance I have to use one and avoid that mess.