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I think the economy changes make it unreasonably hard to manufacture capships.
I've resubbed to VO after an extended absence, and during that absence the economy changes were put into effect. They made it extremely hard to make large amounts of money from static trade routes. These trade routes are how I financed the completion of my Goliath, and later my attempt at building a Trident.
Before I left, I spent most of my time working on finishing my Trident, using my Goliath to move freight. I would be in one of four phases at any one time: Out of Synthetic Silksteel, Out of various commodities, out of credits, and actually shipping and building stuff.
At this time, SSS was available in bulk through exploitation of bot AI and lightning mines. This was patched as an exploit. I got around two thirds of my SSS for my Goliath using a Behemoth with 2 mposi blasters to blast bots. The rest I bought from other players, using lots of credits. Having built my first capship, I used to use my Goli to mass farm SSS, which was still tedious, as I have only played VO on mobile. It was much easier to farm the static trade routes in order to buy SSS from other players. The L-mine nerf was the reason I left VO, as I, at the time, thought that it was too much grinding at that point to continue manufacturing.
Commodities are expensive. I used around half my credits on SSS, and the other half on commodities whenever I was building. I categorize ores under commodities, and I bought ores in bulk from Latos N2. This was my greatest cash sink, next to buying SSS, as it was usually easier to buy ores rather than farm them yourself. If your spreadsheet tells you you need 10,000cu Lanth, you probably aren't going to go out and actually mine that ore, if you have the money to buy it from a NPC or another player
Credits were easy to get, and they made manufacturing bearable. Even with being able to make millions of credits a run, and even with guild support, it still took me a good 2-3 months to build my Goliath. The credit changes make almost /every single step/ of manufacturing capital ships harder, and more grindy.
At time of writing I'm broke in a universe of characters with hundreds of millions, perhaps billions of credits saved across multiple accounts. Being broke is fine, manufacturing always used to be a cycle, but I feel like I'm broke with no way out to get the credits I need. Manufacturing is my main activity in VO, along with trading, which used to be my #2 activity, if only to support #1.
I have guild support for certain areas of manufacturing as well as a decent amount of experience in VO. It's hard enough as is. Think of the noob who just got to 4/4/4/4/4, subbed, and had their mind exploded by the spreadsheet detailing the things required to build either of the capships.
It may not be the intention of the developers to impact manufacturing in this way, but removing a feature (static trade routes) that had been in the game for at least a decade I just don't like. I understand that this may be a good thing in that it pushes people to mine more themselves, or mine to sell to other people, but mining is grindy as is when done in the quantity required for manu, which is why I tended to buy it from a NPC. (capship mining update? QOL capship-stationwithoutacapshipdock cargo transfer update?) I understand that economy changes have been a long time coming, but the low profits available in the market as it is now is unsustainable for any noob, or non veteran (player with large amounts of money gathered) who wants to start/continue manufacturing anything on their own.
These are my thoughts, over the last few days getting back into VO.
-[TGFT] Oil Slick
I've resubbed to VO after an extended absence, and during that absence the economy changes were put into effect. They made it extremely hard to make large amounts of money from static trade routes. These trade routes are how I financed the completion of my Goliath, and later my attempt at building a Trident.
Before I left, I spent most of my time working on finishing my Trident, using my Goliath to move freight. I would be in one of four phases at any one time: Out of Synthetic Silksteel, Out of various commodities, out of credits, and actually shipping and building stuff.
At this time, SSS was available in bulk through exploitation of bot AI and lightning mines. This was patched as an exploit. I got around two thirds of my SSS for my Goliath using a Behemoth with 2 mposi blasters to blast bots. The rest I bought from other players, using lots of credits. Having built my first capship, I used to use my Goli to mass farm SSS, which was still tedious, as I have only played VO on mobile. It was much easier to farm the static trade routes in order to buy SSS from other players. The L-mine nerf was the reason I left VO, as I, at the time, thought that it was too much grinding at that point to continue manufacturing.
Commodities are expensive. I used around half my credits on SSS, and the other half on commodities whenever I was building. I categorize ores under commodities, and I bought ores in bulk from Latos N2. This was my greatest cash sink, next to buying SSS, as it was usually easier to buy ores rather than farm them yourself. If your spreadsheet tells you you need 10,000cu Lanth, you probably aren't going to go out and actually mine that ore, if you have the money to buy it from a NPC or another player
Credits were easy to get, and they made manufacturing bearable. Even with being able to make millions of credits a run, and even with guild support, it still took me a good 2-3 months to build my Goliath. The credit changes make almost /every single step/ of manufacturing capital ships harder, and more grindy.
At time of writing I'm broke in a universe of characters with hundreds of millions, perhaps billions of credits saved across multiple accounts. Being broke is fine, manufacturing always used to be a cycle, but I feel like I'm broke with no way out to get the credits I need. Manufacturing is my main activity in VO, along with trading, which used to be my #2 activity, if only to support #1.
I have guild support for certain areas of manufacturing as well as a decent amount of experience in VO. It's hard enough as is. Think of the noob who just got to 4/4/4/4/4, subbed, and had their mind exploded by the spreadsheet detailing the things required to build either of the capships.
It may not be the intention of the developers to impact manufacturing in this way, but removing a feature (static trade routes) that had been in the game for at least a decade I just don't like. I understand that this may be a good thing in that it pushes people to mine more themselves, or mine to sell to other people, but mining is grindy as is when done in the quantity required for manu, which is why I tended to buy it from a NPC. (capship mining update? QOL capship-stationwithoutacapshipdock cargo transfer update?) I understand that economy changes have been a long time coming, but the low profits available in the market as it is now is unsustainable for any noob, or non veteran (player with large amounts of money gathered) who wants to start/continue manufacturing anything on their own.
These are my thoughts, over the last few days getting back into VO.
-[TGFT] Oil Slick
I'm sorry i didn't wanted to talk about this topic anymore , but 3 of my friends are already quitting because of some recent changes.
I know odia-Itan routes was static & devs fixed it obviously because some people complained.
And i'm not vouching anymore to add it back but Devs can atleast increase the profit for normal trade routes & fix the trade routes reset timer. (For Ex - it should reset in 8-12 hrs).
Idk i just don't want some friends to quit or Upcoming newbies to suffer.
Btw thanks for recent improved Jump update inc o7
Really thanks for all your hard work devs.
Take care o/
I know odia-Itan routes was static & devs fixed it obviously because some people complained.
And i'm not vouching anymore to add it back but Devs can atleast increase the profit for normal trade routes & fix the trade routes reset timer. (For Ex - it should reset in 8-12 hrs).
Idk i just don't want some friends to quit or Upcoming newbies to suffer.
Btw thanks for recent improved Jump update inc o7
Really thanks for all your hard work devs.
Take care o/
Commodities are expensive. I used around half my credits on SSS, and the other half on commodities whenever I was building. I categorize ores under commodities, and I bought ores in bulk from Lagos N2.
Why would you buy ores from N2? Just do some group mining. Mining in a group of eight is highly efficient.
it still took me a good 2-3 months to build my Goliath.
Capships are not supposed to be speed builds.
Think of the noob who just got to 4/4/4/4/4, subbed, and had their mind exploded by the spreadsheet detailing the things required to build either of the capships.
Think about the first capships that were built with just XCs and with SSS requirements much higher than are required now. PLUS old M7. We have it EASY now.
Why would you buy ores from N2? Just do some group mining. Mining in a group of eight is highly efficient.
it still took me a good 2-3 months to build my Goliath.
Capships are not supposed to be speed builds.
Think of the noob who just got to 4/4/4/4/4, subbed, and had their mind exploded by the spreadsheet detailing the things required to build either of the capships.
Think about the first capships that were built with just XCs and with SSS requirements much higher than are required now. PLUS old M7. We have it EASY now.
Ill just say it how it is. Trade changes are bad, less traders less pirates, less well "vendetta"
"Why would you buy ores from N2? Just do some group mining. Mining in a group of eight is highly efficient."
Because, as I stated, if you can afford it, and don't want to be assed rounding up a friend or two to group mine, buying ores was always more efficient than mining them. There is the argument of "bruh just mine them in Pelatus it'll be quicker" and it might have a point but it was worth the money to me not to have to sit in front of a mining beam.
"Capships are not supposed to be speed builds."
It was my understanding that 2-3 months is the intended amount of time that a Goliath is to be constructed in.
"Think about the first capships that were built with just XCs and with SSS requirements much higher than are required now. PLUS old M7. We have it EASY now."
>muh old capships you youngsters have it so much easier
The devs changed capship requirements because they /were/ hard. Unreasonably hard. They have become so again.
Because, as I stated, if you can afford it, and don't want to be assed rounding up a friend or two to group mine, buying ores was always more efficient than mining them. There is the argument of "bruh just mine them in Pelatus it'll be quicker" and it might have a point but it was worth the money to me not to have to sit in front of a mining beam.
"Capships are not supposed to be speed builds."
It was my understanding that 2-3 months is the intended amount of time that a Goliath is to be constructed in.
"Think about the first capships that were built with just XCs and with SSS requirements much higher than are required now. PLUS old M7. We have it EASY now."
>muh old capships you youngsters have it so much easier
The devs changed capship requirements because they /were/ hard. Unreasonably hard. They have become so again.
I have to admit, I like seeing XCs moving large quantities of anything from major faction to major faction. Rather than re-institute a *static* route or two, perhaps the answer is make it so the demand from places like UIT to Itan or Bethashee bounce around a little. If the profit dries up in Itan, it immediately goes up in Eo. Once it dries up in Eo, it switches to Pherona. Make it random or somewhat unpredictable so the trader needs to switch systems and search for the new profit. Maybe he/she arrives too late if there are other traders with the same item!
But I would not like to see static routes in the same major faction or system. At least not the kind that pay out such that they have no reason to go from between Serco/UIT/Itan/Grey.
But I would not like to see static routes in the same major faction or system. At least not the kind that pay out such that they have no reason to go from between Serco/UIT/Itan/Grey.
Vendetta is in constant development, and quitting due to something just being implemented seems like an overreaction to me. The devs have their goals, they listen to our feedback, they decide how to implement, and adjust to get the effect they are looking for. Rather than declaring dynamic economy changes bad, use the Suggestions forum to make specific suggestions to bring the new economy into parameters we can live with.
Because, as I stated, if you can afford it, and don't want to be assed rounding up a friend or two to group mine, buying ores was always more efficient than mining them. There is the argument of "bruh just mine them in Pelatus it'll be quicker" and it might have a point but it was worth the money to me not to have to sit in front of a mining beam.
You are in a guild with over 600 members. It shouldn't be hard to find seven of them to go out and mine with you.
It was my understanding that 2-3 months is the intended amount of time that a Goliath is to be constructed in.
That is an arbitrary number that some player came up with. Here is another arbitrary number: There is a player in this game that can push out a TRIDENT in 2 weeks, including the time to farm the bot parts, and mine the ore. 2 weeks. By himself. Imagine how fast a player with access to 72 capships (which is what a major trade guild likes to brag they have) could push out a goli in. But these numbers are all just figures the player base have come up with. There is no min/max times out there set by the devs.
When the goliath was released, this is what was mentioned by the devs in the news post:
"The new Goliath-class Light Freighter, pictured above, is one of several pieces of content we've been developing in the background over the past few months. Occupying a new place as a fully dockable capship that's smaller than a Trident-class vessel, but considerably larger than a Behemoth, we expect this to fill a variety of roles throughout the galaxy."
As you can see, no mention of build times.
When VO 1.8.413-418 as pushed, here were the notes:
"- Goliath may now be manufactured from the shipyards in Latos."
Again no mention of time.
The devs changed capship requirements because they /were/ hard. Unreasonably hard. They have become so again.
They have not become hard. Goliaths are especially easy.
You are in a guild with over 600 members. It shouldn't be hard to find seven of them to go out and mine with you.
It was my understanding that 2-3 months is the intended amount of time that a Goliath is to be constructed in.
That is an arbitrary number that some player came up with. Here is another arbitrary number: There is a player in this game that can push out a TRIDENT in 2 weeks, including the time to farm the bot parts, and mine the ore. 2 weeks. By himself. Imagine how fast a player with access to 72 capships (which is what a major trade guild likes to brag they have) could push out a goli in. But these numbers are all just figures the player base have come up with. There is no min/max times out there set by the devs.
When the goliath was released, this is what was mentioned by the devs in the news post:
"The new Goliath-class Light Freighter, pictured above, is one of several pieces of content we've been developing in the background over the past few months. Occupying a new place as a fully dockable capship that's smaller than a Trident-class vessel, but considerably larger than a Behemoth, we expect this to fill a variety of roles throughout the galaxy."
As you can see, no mention of build times.
When VO 1.8.413-418 as pushed, here were the notes:
"- Goliath may now be manufactured from the shipyards in Latos."
Again no mention of time.
The devs changed capship requirements because they /were/ hard. Unreasonably hard. They have become so again.
They have not become hard. Goliaths are especially easy.
First off, "We all float," nobody goes to N2 anymore because it's never stocked. 2nd off, weapons trades have been trash everywhere. As for some player who can pump out a trident within two weels, I find that exceedingly doubtful. Not everyone can stay in game for 12 hrs a day 7days a week.
first off, "We all float," nobody goes to N2 anymore because it's never stocked.
It is a good idea to check, C2, N2, and N15. What one station may not have, the other may have. I find it simpler to mine my ore with friends. We put HD beams and HE beams on rags, and hit roids together. If i can't do that, I put in orders for ore with GRIN and ORE. Both who have better prices than stations.
. As for some player who can pump out a trident within two weels, I find that exceedingly doubtful.
I know the player, and i know he has done it a few times. He has a dent on every one of his toons.
It is a good idea to check, C2, N2, and N15. What one station may not have, the other may have. I find it simpler to mine my ore with friends. We put HD beams and HE beams on rags, and hit roids together. If i can't do that, I put in orders for ore with GRIN and ORE. Both who have better prices than stations.
. As for some player who can pump out a trident within two weels, I find that exceedingly doubtful.
I know the player, and i know he has done it a few times. He has a dent on every one of his toons.
"You are in a guild with over 600 members. It shouldn't be hard to find seven of them to go out and mine with you. "
The vast majority of those 600 members are inactive. If they weren't, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I'll agree with you on your second point, it probably takes about two weeks of non stop play time to complete a dent. Some players apparently have the schedule to do that. I would consider this one person of yours as an extreme outlier that does not represent the average player trying to build a cap ship.
Moreover, this player you're speaking of probably already has a dent that he uses to build dents. This goes into your other point
"They have not become hard. Goliaths are especially easy."
To people who already own capships, yeah. It is easy to use a goli to build another goli, and to use a dent to build a dent. It is not easy to use a XC to build a Goli, or a Goli to build a dent.
The vast majority of those 600 members are inactive. If they weren't, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I'll agree with you on your second point, it probably takes about two weeks of non stop play time to complete a dent. Some players apparently have the schedule to do that. I would consider this one person of yours as an extreme outlier that does not represent the average player trying to build a cap ship.
Moreover, this player you're speaking of probably already has a dent that he uses to build dents. This goes into your other point
"They have not become hard. Goliaths are especially easy."
To people who already own capships, yeah. It is easy to use a goli to build another goli, and to use a dent to build a dent. It is not easy to use a XC to build a Goli, or a Goli to build a dent.
If someone can make a trident in 2 weeks, they have no life outside of VO, and that is a terrific waste of a human life.
I think the feedback is fair, as is the conclusion that VO is what it is (see what Whistler said above re: development). Contrary to what Whistler said, however, I think it's a totally legit reason to stop playing. If you like VO as it is, play it, if you don't, you don't have to play it.
I think the feedback is fair, as is the conclusion that VO is what it is (see what Whistler said above re: development). Contrary to what Whistler said, however, I think it's a totally legit reason to stop playing. If you like VO as it is, play it, if you don't, you don't have to play it.
If someone can make a trident in 2 weeks, they have no life outside of VO, and that is a terrific waste of a human life.
No need for the drama and the attack on someones character. This person works from home.
No need for the drama and the attack on someones character. This person works from home.
Alright, let's be hard on the arguments but easy on the people please.
Responding to Greenwall: I suppose one could say my characterization of those who quit over this as "overreacting" is a judgement on them. Fair enough. What I was getting at is that VO is about adapting to change. I think that's why many of us have stayed so long. If a player doesn't like a particular change, it might be worth sticking it out to try to influence adjustments - but if a player just doesn't want change at all then VO is not the game for them.
Responding to Greenwall: I suppose one could say my characterization of those who quit over this as "overreacting" is a judgement on them. Fair enough. What I was getting at is that VO is about adapting to change. I think that's why many of us have stayed so long. If a player doesn't like a particular change, it might be worth sticking it out to try to influence adjustments - but if a player just doesn't want change at all then VO is not the game for them.
There is more to trading in the VO economy than making capships.
Personally I welcome the change to a universal dynamic economy if it results in a more logical behaviour of station pricing.
Every station needs a time dependant flow of basic goods to survive. For years the stations have been paying a fixed rate for goods which quite clearly is unrealistic. If nobody is selling water to a station then it cannot survive, the price for water should therefore rise. The same applies to all basic items needed for survival.
If a station does not have that basic level of supply it can manufacture and sell nothing. If the basic needs are satisfied then the station can purchase material to manufacture other items. Again , if those are in short supply the price should rise.
This is how a real economy works.
The skilled trader would identify areas of high demand ( and therefore high profit ) and work to supply goods by trade or mining to satisfy that demand.
Quite simply don't expect a station to sell you capship parts if they are thirsty and hungry.
Now, I expect a lot of folk will disagree with me. I understand it is nice to be able to just buy high end manufactured items without putting in the effort to support the underlying economy that makes them.
But, all these years on I want to see a reasonably sensible economic model in which demand is satisfied by price driven by need not by the mythical space elves....
Personally I welcome the change to a universal dynamic economy if it results in a more logical behaviour of station pricing.
Every station needs a time dependant flow of basic goods to survive. For years the stations have been paying a fixed rate for goods which quite clearly is unrealistic. If nobody is selling water to a station then it cannot survive, the price for water should therefore rise. The same applies to all basic items needed for survival.
If a station does not have that basic level of supply it can manufacture and sell nothing. If the basic needs are satisfied then the station can purchase material to manufacture other items. Again , if those are in short supply the price should rise.
This is how a real economy works.
The skilled trader would identify areas of high demand ( and therefore high profit ) and work to supply goods by trade or mining to satisfy that demand.
Quite simply don't expect a station to sell you capship parts if they are thirsty and hungry.
Now, I expect a lot of folk will disagree with me. I understand it is nice to be able to just buy high end manufactured items without putting in the effort to support the underlying economy that makes them.
But, all these years on I want to see a reasonably sensible economic model in which demand is satisfied by price driven by need not by the mythical space elves....
Completely static trade routes, in the form in which they most-commonly existed (particularly those in stations in close proximity), were not an intentional addition to the game. Basically, the economy was supposed to change in such a way that commodities on those routes would drop appropriately, and in fact, for years I thought the economy mechanics had been changed. But, as it turns out, they had not, and my level of insight on the economy was poor (at the time), and I didn't fully understand what was going on for quite awhile. To be clear, I take responsibility for that problem, but it certainly wasn't intended.
Some of those routes were nonsensical and exploitable in the extreme, and.. were exploited. Which generated a significant inflation of credits for some players and guilds.
There was a small handful of routes (Corvus Holodisks, generally the Odia -> Serco/Itani space runs), that were intended, but those were an incredibly small minority.
I'm now trying to transition the game to the new Latos-style economy, which also means trying to have it not be a broken mess.. which I then make more complicated and dynamic (and than expand the galaxy, and add player-owned stations, and 50 other bolt-on complexities that will only get drastically worse if established on the "foundation" of a highly flawed economic base).
I also generally think that static routes are fundamentally monotonous and don't serve the game very well. The activity of "trading" is supposed to be a process of discovery and exploration, taking a player around to find the best prices for various goods. It should be dynamic and uncertain, not driving a Desert Bus back and forth between Odia and Itani space, carrying Holodisks (more on this later).
Herein lies the challenge of an actively developed game. I'm not just making some minor tweaks, I'm actually re-building the entire economic infrastructure of the game. We've spent 6 months improving the AI, so that "real" goods are actually being delivered to stations in real-time, and can really be pirated (or blockaded, or whatever) and potentially influence pricing, or localized production of higher-complexity content, or other factors.
But this means that stuff is going to change.
If things change in a way you don't like, well, that's a great subject for Suggestions. But the answer should not be "Well, then I quit!". Because here in VO-land, the only certainty is change. A lot of those changes are based on player-feedback, so it's pretty strange to quit without engaging.
The most fundamental questions here are really:
1) How much should a person be able to generate from trading, per-unit-time, and why? What defensible model and reasoning is used to make a given calculation? For instance, in the old days it was basically how long someone had to trade before they could go back to shooting stuff again (basically ship replacement cost generated per time trading). But, we had less "dedicated" trade back then, we certainly didn't have moths and capital ships, things have changed and relative capabilities along with them (for better or worse).
2) How lengthy, or difficult, should it be to create a Capital Ship? We've already nerfed this by at least half, Conflict Diamond went through a much harder system, for a Trident, and then we made the Goliath much easier still. But, to be clear, it is an endgame goal. It's supposed to take months and months.
3) How much grind should be necessary for high-level goals, and how should it take place? For instance, there's no reason why static-trade-routes are the only way to offer high-profit trading. We can have large numbers of peaky routes, which drop off hard after a moth-load or some such, and recover slowly, but yield a significant one-time profit. This can be coupled with greater awareness of potential routes (like, say, any given item you click on, before you even buy it, shows you the nearest high-profit route, and the profit/cu and distance; but with no guarantee that someone else may not tank that route while you're headed there, and then you can see in realtime what the next-best is at that point).
I'm interested in making the best "game" here. My goal is whatever I believe will make VO the most fun and interesting.
My goal is not to do things "because that's how it's worked for the last few years". I really don't care about that. I mean, I'm not opposed to some way we did things before being better, or even reverting things, but a really strong case has to be made for that being the best long-term design for the game.
I don't want to crush people with "grind". But, the old extreme-inflationary, exploitable "next-door-station" static trade-route situation was definitely not "good". I'm fine with reducing grind by actually designing a reduction in grind, not by accidentally breaking other systems that happens to make something else simpler (but also throws half the game into a cocked hat and devalues the currency).
Anyway, I think the above three numbered topics are of great value on respective Suggestions threads. This is an area of current development activity, and one where I do welcome feedback.
I think we've proven how actively we listen to the player base for 18 years, and how willing I am to change or tweak things based on feedback (development resources being the limiting factor, usually). There hasn't been much major "change" for the last decade, and now there's going to be a hell of a lot of it. So, if you want to be playing here: Best to accept that massive changes are coming, and be an active part of the process on Suggestions.
Some of those routes were nonsensical and exploitable in the extreme, and.. were exploited. Which generated a significant inflation of credits for some players and guilds.
There was a small handful of routes (Corvus Holodisks, generally the Odia -> Serco/Itani space runs), that were intended, but those were an incredibly small minority.
I'm now trying to transition the game to the new Latos-style economy, which also means trying to have it not be a broken mess.. which I then make more complicated and dynamic (and than expand the galaxy, and add player-owned stations, and 50 other bolt-on complexities that will only get drastically worse if established on the "foundation" of a highly flawed economic base).
I also generally think that static routes are fundamentally monotonous and don't serve the game very well. The activity of "trading" is supposed to be a process of discovery and exploration, taking a player around to find the best prices for various goods. It should be dynamic and uncertain, not driving a Desert Bus back and forth between Odia and Itani space, carrying Holodisks (more on this later).
Herein lies the challenge of an actively developed game. I'm not just making some minor tweaks, I'm actually re-building the entire economic infrastructure of the game. We've spent 6 months improving the AI, so that "real" goods are actually being delivered to stations in real-time, and can really be pirated (or blockaded, or whatever) and potentially influence pricing, or localized production of higher-complexity content, or other factors.
But this means that stuff is going to change.
If things change in a way you don't like, well, that's a great subject for Suggestions. But the answer should not be "Well, then I quit!". Because here in VO-land, the only certainty is change. A lot of those changes are based on player-feedback, so it's pretty strange to quit without engaging.
The most fundamental questions here are really:
1) How much should a person be able to generate from trading, per-unit-time, and why? What defensible model and reasoning is used to make a given calculation? For instance, in the old days it was basically how long someone had to trade before they could go back to shooting stuff again (basically ship replacement cost generated per time trading). But, we had less "dedicated" trade back then, we certainly didn't have moths and capital ships, things have changed and relative capabilities along with them (for better or worse).
2) How lengthy, or difficult, should it be to create a Capital Ship? We've already nerfed this by at least half, Conflict Diamond went through a much harder system, for a Trident, and then we made the Goliath much easier still. But, to be clear, it is an endgame goal. It's supposed to take months and months.
3) How much grind should be necessary for high-level goals, and how should it take place? For instance, there's no reason why static-trade-routes are the only way to offer high-profit trading. We can have large numbers of peaky routes, which drop off hard after a moth-load or some such, and recover slowly, but yield a significant one-time profit. This can be coupled with greater awareness of potential routes (like, say, any given item you click on, before you even buy it, shows you the nearest high-profit route, and the profit/cu and distance; but with no guarantee that someone else may not tank that route while you're headed there, and then you can see in realtime what the next-best is at that point).
I'm interested in making the best "game" here. My goal is whatever I believe will make VO the most fun and interesting.
My goal is not to do things "because that's how it's worked for the last few years". I really don't care about that. I mean, I'm not opposed to some way we did things before being better, or even reverting things, but a really strong case has to be made for that being the best long-term design for the game.
I don't want to crush people with "grind". But, the old extreme-inflationary, exploitable "next-door-station" static trade-route situation was definitely not "good". I'm fine with reducing grind by actually designing a reduction in grind, not by accidentally breaking other systems that happens to make something else simpler (but also throws half the game into a cocked hat and devalues the currency).
Anyway, I think the above three numbered topics are of great value on respective Suggestions threads. This is an area of current development activity, and one where I do welcome feedback.
I think we've proven how actively we listen to the player base for 18 years, and how willing I am to change or tweak things based on feedback (development resources being the limiting factor, usually). There hasn't been much major "change" for the last decade, and now there's going to be a hell of a lot of it. So, if you want to be playing here: Best to accept that massive changes are coming, and be an active part of the process on Suggestions.
I apologize for characterizing the playing of VO at every waking moment of one’s life as a negative thing.
Some great insight above, thanks incarnate.
Some great insight above, thanks incarnate.
Normally I stay hush, both in game and on forums, but I am quite active most days and I like a good debate. I do feel compelled to write on this occasion, because of what is important to me. I am a Trader...it says so in my character name, so no surprises there.
I have subbed VO for just over 9 years, although because of RL circumstances I had about 7 years where I could not get online very much at all. When I 'returned' to playing more actively I saw many changes and I needed to adapt. I also want to add at this point that I have never knowingly used so called 'static routes' and very rarely use plugin tools for trading. I trade in a wide base of goods. I also sell ores which I have mined. I have capships, but I find that there use is limited in trading as it is too slow and apart from their resilience to attack there is not much advantage to be made.
Decent profits are very hard to come by these days 'verse wide...I don't see many players, so I really cannot see a reason why, unless someone is tanking everything in sight.
I have read this thread with interest and everybody has good points to make, depending on their goals and RP.
Changes in the VO economy will impact on the game in a major way, whatever your RP, whether, manu pirating or like me trading. It will certainly make a difference.
The points I want to make are that I hope that any changes are not open to abuse/exploits/unfairness...which is different to innovative enterprise and that any gains folks have achieved in the past are not devalued, whether that be in credits, levels, assets etc.
Change is not always a bad thing, what is upcoming we will need to see, everyone needs to adapt.
Above all I hope that it makes the game more interesting and can retain current players and encourage new players.
I have subbed VO for just over 9 years, although because of RL circumstances I had about 7 years where I could not get online very much at all. When I 'returned' to playing more actively I saw many changes and I needed to adapt. I also want to add at this point that I have never knowingly used so called 'static routes' and very rarely use plugin tools for trading. I trade in a wide base of goods. I also sell ores which I have mined. I have capships, but I find that there use is limited in trading as it is too slow and apart from their resilience to attack there is not much advantage to be made.
Decent profits are very hard to come by these days 'verse wide...I don't see many players, so I really cannot see a reason why, unless someone is tanking everything in sight.
I have read this thread with interest and everybody has good points to make, depending on their goals and RP.
Changes in the VO economy will impact on the game in a major way, whatever your RP, whether, manu pirating or like me trading. It will certainly make a difference.
The points I want to make are that I hope that any changes are not open to abuse/exploits/unfairness...which is different to innovative enterprise and that any gains folks have achieved in the past are not devalued, whether that be in credits, levels, assets etc.
Change is not always a bad thing, what is upcoming we will need to see, everyone needs to adapt.
Above all I hope that it makes the game more interesting and can retain current players and encourage new players.
Basically, the economy was supposed to change in such a way that commodities on those routes would drop appropriately, and in fact, for years I thought the economy mechanics had been changed. But, as it turns out, they had not, and my level of insight on the economy was poor (at the time)
This is why you got a razzing from me. Thanks for all the changes. The people leaving are leaving because they would honestly rather play Desert Bus than anything that has actual gameplay value.
Also for the record, I did the same capship build as Conflict Diamond, including all the docking and un-docking a bazillon times with the exception that I had hauling help from existing trident.
The real and only issue with obtaining the commodities and capital at that stage and during the build was that the content actively discouraged going into combat or 'variable outcome' situations. You didn't hire help, you didn't go through risky areas or exploit high risk/reward scenarios. You just avoided people as much as possible and hauled in an unprotected XC half the time at odd hours.
That experience has to change. You need to be able to take huge risks and reap rewards from doing so - it's the only way the content and the experience will ever be engaging. In saying this, you can't get to a situation where this is possible unless the static, risk-less trade routes are removed. Otherwise, you can always beat the player that takes risks by taking the safer gameplay routes.
Players that are upset about the lack of apparent trade windfalls in the short term need to exercise patience. There will be options to make enough money to carve through a capship build - but they will need to be re-introduced in the context of an economy that presents as a sensible/balanced risk-reward environment, rather than the Desert Bus economy of previous years.
This is why you got a razzing from me. Thanks for all the changes. The people leaving are leaving because they would honestly rather play Desert Bus than anything that has actual gameplay value.
Also for the record, I did the same capship build as Conflict Diamond, including all the docking and un-docking a bazillon times with the exception that I had hauling help from existing trident.
The real and only issue with obtaining the commodities and capital at that stage and during the build was that the content actively discouraged going into combat or 'variable outcome' situations. You didn't hire help, you didn't go through risky areas or exploit high risk/reward scenarios. You just avoided people as much as possible and hauled in an unprotected XC half the time at odd hours.
That experience has to change. You need to be able to take huge risks and reap rewards from doing so - it's the only way the content and the experience will ever be engaging. In saying this, you can't get to a situation where this is possible unless the static, risk-less trade routes are removed. Otherwise, you can always beat the player that takes risks by taking the safer gameplay routes.
Players that are upset about the lack of apparent trade windfalls in the short term need to exercise patience. There will be options to make enough money to carve through a capship build - but they will need to be re-introduced in the context of an economy that presents as a sensible/balanced risk-reward environment, rather than the Desert Bus economy of previous years.
This month I bought my 4th consecutive yearly sub, so I am the new guy here. My time spent online to date: 234 days, 4:22:5. (I play VO when the Mrs.’s is watching real housewives competing to make knifes and competition cooking type shows. This works very well for us domestically, and I rack up the in-game time).
I was looking for a “flying game” when I found VO. If this were a PVP only combat game I would have not stayed, and the Dev’s would not have had my 4 years subbed on this account, nor the second subbed account that I used for queen spotting, (now deleted). Nor would some of my “rat friends” collected unwilling pk’s from my presence here.
The Trader lifestyle appeals to me. When I started playing VO it was advertised as “You could be “A Captain of Industry”, a “War Hero” or an “Outlaw”.” I chose Captain of Industry because it appeals to my aged self.
I say so what if Traders are getting rich on static routes, how does that hurt anyone? Is that not what a “Captain of Industry” does?
If you are upset because someone has more than you, stop winning and put in the work yourself. (Read that again Snowflake’s.)
I have gifted 100’s of millions of credits to players I like, (2 different players - 100m at a time), and I have loaned the guy who “builds caps in 2 weeks” 300 million credits at a time, (He re-pays in full every time and has an excellent credit history with me). During the Christmas season I like to fly around and anonymously give credits to new players, (Usually starting at 10,000 credits, but if I like the new guys /charinfo I have been known to gift up to 50K.) A month ago a new guy sent me 100 credit in passing, as a joke I assumed, so I sent back to that player 10 million credits and said thank you.
Being fabulously wealthy from static trade routes helps me to re-sub every year. I take this wealth and I DO ME; I raise license and collect badges. I call this Character Development and currently I am 12/16/18/16/18, with my eye on achieving all 18’s, (after that I am thinking 20/20/20/20/20). This is how I VO.
I say all that to say this, if the devs had not nerfed the L-mines I may have never learned to use charged weapons proficiently. I now have a huge number of bott’s kills, (61k+ the last time I looked), and I really enjoy clearing hive sectors. With this in mind I am all in to see where the developers are going with trade routes before complaining, but if the Devs are changing the status quo only to appease non-traders then shame on the Devs.
Also:
"You are in a guild with over 600 members. It shouldn't be hard to find seven of them to go out and mine with you. " < - - This is a great example of not minding your own business and telling others how to play. (Future politician!)
In my humble opinion, the ability to amass a huge amount of credits is the ability to succeed as a Trader, and this is 1/3 of the play style the Devs originally intended. Developers please have a good reason if you feel this aspect of game play needs nurfing and remember a subbed Trader does not quit playing VO when the pie-rats are in EVE and not in B-8.
A trader can play even if no one else is online.
MTGA, Trader Lives Matter.
I was looking for a “flying game” when I found VO. If this were a PVP only combat game I would have not stayed, and the Dev’s would not have had my 4 years subbed on this account, nor the second subbed account that I used for queen spotting, (now deleted). Nor would some of my “rat friends” collected unwilling pk’s from my presence here.
The Trader lifestyle appeals to me. When I started playing VO it was advertised as “You could be “A Captain of Industry”, a “War Hero” or an “Outlaw”.” I chose Captain of Industry because it appeals to my aged self.
I say so what if Traders are getting rich on static routes, how does that hurt anyone? Is that not what a “Captain of Industry” does?
If you are upset because someone has more than you, stop winning and put in the work yourself. (Read that again Snowflake’s.)
I have gifted 100’s of millions of credits to players I like, (2 different players - 100m at a time), and I have loaned the guy who “builds caps in 2 weeks” 300 million credits at a time, (He re-pays in full every time and has an excellent credit history with me). During the Christmas season I like to fly around and anonymously give credits to new players, (Usually starting at 10,000 credits, but if I like the new guys /charinfo I have been known to gift up to 50K.) A month ago a new guy sent me 100 credit in passing, as a joke I assumed, so I sent back to that player 10 million credits and said thank you.
Being fabulously wealthy from static trade routes helps me to re-sub every year. I take this wealth and I DO ME; I raise license and collect badges. I call this Character Development and currently I am 12/16/18/16/18, with my eye on achieving all 18’s, (after that I am thinking 20/20/20/20/20). This is how I VO.
I say all that to say this, if the devs had not nerfed the L-mines I may have never learned to use charged weapons proficiently. I now have a huge number of bott’s kills, (61k+ the last time I looked), and I really enjoy clearing hive sectors. With this in mind I am all in to see where the developers are going with trade routes before complaining, but if the Devs are changing the status quo only to appease non-traders then shame on the Devs.
Also:
"You are in a guild with over 600 members. It shouldn't be hard to find seven of them to go out and mine with you. " < - - This is a great example of not minding your own business and telling others how to play. (Future politician!)
In my humble opinion, the ability to amass a huge amount of credits is the ability to succeed as a Trader, and this is 1/3 of the play style the Devs originally intended. Developers please have a good reason if you feel this aspect of game play needs nurfing and remember a subbed Trader does not quit playing VO when the pie-rats are in EVE and not in B-8.
A trader can play even if no one else is online.
MTGA, Trader Lives Matter.