Only 2 questions for this morning (or whatever...) :-D

Is the natural evolution/player progression in this game to become a pirate?

If this is considered the natural progression, then I'll post some content suggestions over in the suggestion forum. If it's not, then I won't. I'd like to hear Incarnate and/or Raybondo's opinions on the ideal player progression, but I know they are incredibly busy.

It seems most (not all, but a large number of) vets have become pirates. Even many of the ones that haven't either: a) turn off or don't utilize 100, or b) have a pirate alt, or c) lie about not having a pirate alt.

I'm loosely using the term "pirate" to mean someone that preys on the weaker, extorts for credits, steals or "acquires" cargoes, kills for the joy of killing, generally hassles less experienced players, or embargoes/interdicts sectors (without a game event) to prevent others from using that space.

And yes, these are purposefully loaded questions... I'd like to have someone, anyone, reset my opinions about what it means to be a pirate. With facts and not just angry rhetoric, please.

There is no endgame, but there is absolutely no requirement to become a pirate. Many people never do. What you are experiencing is that the vets who pirate tend to be fairly vocal. There are other vets who are mining, trading, doing skirmishes, role-playing, etc. that do not seek contact with people on 100.

Yes, I understand that there is no hard requirement to either become a pirate or not. I also understand that there is a lot of gray area (hah! See what I did there?!)

I'd like to hear from some long-term players that have not opted for piracy (even on an alt.) What is your in-game life like?

Any game ends up taking on a life if its own, often away from design intent. That's pretty normal.

Whistler, in this case, are you suggesting that my perception, which is a larger number of veteran players have moved on to piracy, is not accurate? That pirates are just noisome blowhards? (My words, not Whistlers.) And there are an equal or greater number of veteran non-piratical players?

Thing is, if game progression has moved more toward piracy, then there needs to be more pirate content. If not, then there should be more content focusing on the growth-area. If pirates are, indeed, just the squeaky wheel, and they keep getting greased at the expense of the rest of the wagon, that's a problem.

I'm trying to understand the game balance. And what my best options are for future gameplay... I want to maximize my fun(!) And provide feedback/suggestions that are relevant to designed, and evolutionary, game play. I also like to develop plugins and don't want to waste my time working toward objectives that I'll just discard later.

I've been told that VO is not a trading game. That VO is not a mining game. Inc has said as much; those features seem to exist to round out the game, but the primary focus is combat (hence "Vendetta".)

That leads me to two lines of thought: (the more prevalent) piracy/anti-piracy, or military style combat.

Am I wrong?

Case in point.

I became a pirate when I first started, and if I still played I would still be a pirate.

I have seen others become traders after being pirates.

I have seen others become pirates after being traders.

I have seen friends abandon pirate characters to play their trader alts exclusively.

I have seen friends abandon trader characters to play their pirate alts exclusively.

You can start in and/or end in piracy...or you can not. It's entirely up to the player. I would guess that you are just witnessing veteran players finding the joys of being the "bad guy" after they have done all that trading has to offer.

This is a game, and it supports several play styles. It's perfectly normal for people to want to try out all of them to see what they enjoy most, so it stands to reason that most vets will have at least done a little piracy at some point. Since some people have weird moral hangups about playing a pirate and since piracy can have long-term repercussions to reputation, it's also reasonable to expect that a lot of people save piracy for last.

Personally, I started off as a wannabe pirate-hunter and I did some trade to fund myself. Eventually I noticed that (at the time) there weren't really enough pirates in the game and the non-pirate community were kind of assholes (vocal minority, to be fair), so I became a pirate and had a lot more fun. Then capships were introduced, so I rolled an alt and tried out manufacturing. It was lame, so I eventually stopped doing that and just kept on being a pirate.

"Whistler, in this case, are you suggesting that my perception, which is a larger number of veteran players have moved on to piracy, is not accurate? That pirates are just noisome blowhards? (My words, not Whistlers.) And there are an equal or greater number of veteran non-piratical players?"

Your perception is based on the chatter you see on 100. It may be true that, of the veteran players who chat on 100, more are pirates than not. But that's not all of the veterans playing, and in fact miners and traders are often not very vocal. I know when I'm trading I do my best to run silent so nobody looks for me or asks about me.

So, the gist of the general game play is character diversity.

In line with my original question, I'm curious about whether piracy should/will become a divergent role alternative within the framework of the game "engine". Should Gray-space/gray alt (not [Grey] guild) be seen as primarily a pirate faction, or merely "unaligned?" And what does that truly mean? And why wouldn't everyone pick that faction? How would it be any different than UIT in respect to playing the middle, if being gray merely meant "unaligned?"

Seems to me that, with the exception of faction privateers (which don't exist in the game system today,) known pirates would be completely shunned by legit governments. Maybe these are the pirates with liked or higher faction statuses? Except that generally those statuses are being used to prey on players of the same faction... Hmm.

Your perception is based on the chatter you see on 100.

That is only part of the basis... But, yes, likely a large part.

Grey isnt "Pirate" faction as much as its "less-than-guaranteed-legal" for the corporations who call it home. think of the spaces as nations *beyond* what each space's war stance. There is a lot of history between the backstory, spare information, and whats available through missions, and it paints a much deeper picture that I hope you haven't missed.

Sure, corvus is sort of the place for pirates, but greyspace isnt all corvus.

The difference between being unaligned and being UIT is that you... wouldn't be UIT. No top-end UIT ships, no POS perks, etc. And maybe grey factions in general would look upon you a little more favorably.

As Pizzasgood has pointed out, there are a number of play styles.

More experienced players will try out more styles, and one of those styles is piracy.

Some will use an existing character, and some will create a new "pirate" character.

With 6 character slots, I advise:

a trader/miner/botter
one each of serco/itani in deneb, so you can always help balance/unbalance the fight.
one each of pirate/anti-pirate, so you can always help balance/unbalance the fight.
and one disposable character to try new stuff.

So, with the caveat that I haven't been immersed in things for several years-- it strikes me that a lot of this is dancing around the inevitable conclusion that player vs player combat in Vendetta Online has a higher skill ceiling than most other available activities. This doesn't necessarily lead to more pirates per se, but it does mean that long time veterans typically move towards more involved combat roles over time and I'd speculate that those that don't are either solitary types you don't hear much from on 100 or wind up reaching the limits of their interest within e.g. trading.

Which is to say, Remen, I think your intuition that many long-time and outspoken veterans of VO are pirates has more to do with inevitable draw of appropriately challenging content towards combat. It makes it difficult to tune the specific gameplay systems if there isn't a healthy respect for the inherent survivorship bias at play-- many players who do not gravitate upwards towards more challenging content and systems over time will tend to get bored and hop off.

Whether or not that means pirate, anti-pirate, state-sponsored privateer, &c strike me as having more to do with a moral stance towards any one of these activities and social dynamics rather than anything else.

I started in 2008:
-8 hours trial as a UIT trader/miner,
-then 6 months as a serco nationalist
-since then mostly as various Pirate/Murderer/Criminal characters.
Last 3 years, from time to time i don't play a pirate or murder for periods and i play then only as a miner or a trader. Then if i am killed while mining, by a pirate i tend to get revenge on that same miner alt.
I have always tried to enforce alt separation either as an ethic or schizophrenia for role play.

Which is to say, Remen, I think your intuition that many long-time and outspoken veterans of VO are pirates has more to do with inevitable draw of appropriately challenging content towards combat. It makes it difficult to tune the specific gameplay systems if there isn't a healthy respect for the inherent survivorship bias at play-- many players who do not gravitate upwards towards more challenging content and systems over time will tend to get bored and hop off.

This. This is the most pragmatic, and likely, response I have received. Thanks.

At this point, I feel comfortable saying, yes, that piracy is a natural evolutionary step within the game, for those non-insular/helper types, that actually stick around. Whether, it is due to lack of advanced combat content, or boredom with the trade/mining mechanics is moot.

IMHO, I believe "Scuba Steve 9.0" hit the nail squarely on the head.

Thanks to everyone that contributed to the conversation, please feel free to continue discussing, if you believe there is value in doing so.

Am I wrong?

The answer to the question lies in who really has a say here.

I think that you may be missing several points made by other people.

PvP character are often just that, alts that are designed to pvp.

PvP alts may be more vocal than non PvP alts. The same player may behave differently depending on the character they are currently playing.

Some players still do other things than pirate, they just do it on other characters, are are quite about it.

For some, it isn't a question of be a pirate / don't be a pirate. It is a question of "Do I want to be a pirate at this moment, and which character(s) have I assigned that role to?"

It isn't necessarily an all in or all out decision. With careful and discrete alt separation, you can be a pirate at will, and then in the next moment, something else. When there are a shortage of pirates, I log in a pirate, and I pirate, and when there are a shortage of anti-pirates, I log in on an anti-pirate, and I anti-pirate.

Pirate is just one of the roles to be explored in VO. Some do, some don't, but do not limited yourself to just that. Have options.

If you ask me being a pirate is vo's only pvp "lategame" content.

That and having the biggest duel ELO dick!

/me bows.

"I've been told that VO is not a trading game. That VO is not a mining game. Inc has said as much"

Inc. is wrong. The spice must flow!

Yes, VO's PvP is exquisite. Perfect blend of real physics and game physics that allow for responsive combat. Once you are "at one" with the flight model, a close, white-knuckled dogfight that comes down to whoever lands the next hit is simply the best adrenaline rush ever. However, to be more than an arena combat or dueling platform, it requires a reason to be invested in the engagement. Mining, trading, manufacturing, are activities to provide defensive scenarios. Botting, War, and piracy provide offense. Once a player is immersed enough in those activities, they can truly be invested in the fight. VO's lasting addictive charm is the theatre-of-the-mind it provides, both internally as you narrate your own adventures to yourself, and in an "All the 'verse is a stage" interactions with other players. Make your own goals, define your own win-state.

That includes criminal play-styles too. Love them and/or hate them, you can fight, run, negotiate, or join them.

FWIW: I've never been a proper pay-or-die pirate. Tho now you make me curious... Maybe I'll sub up again for it.