Maybe we should make /sector the default and /say seperate? Just to test it.

The law of averages prevents /request mut[ing] abuse. Set the vote limit high, 75-85%, some players have thick skins and will almost never vote, some players are chat abusers and won't vote out fellow abusers, some players will think it through, that's the point of having a group vote, to prevent abuse.

I also suggest a relativly brief banning time period, 15 minutes first, then 30, then 24 hours maybe. The odds of it being abused 3 times in one period by a large portion of the community should be fairly small.

There are currently 15 people on line, at 80% only 2 or 3 people would have to dissent for the vote to not go through (2 if the abusers vote counts).

Also muting a griefer would hardly stop them from shooting you, I'm not sure what you mean by unpopular? Someone who gets many pk's but is not verbally abusive? I might be missing your point here.

I could see no global chat if the game were released and had huge online population, but as it stands chat is one of the more interesting things to do, and having less people too talk to does not sound like more fun. I don't want to have to fight def bots to talk to die-hard Itani botters that never leave 4 for instance.

During some hours of the day you can fly around trading for hours without seeing a single human. 18 to 17 can get pretty lonely then. Many Europeans might stop playing without a global chat. Just a guess I don't speak for anyone but me of course, but I've played in the off hours plenty.

ed: I like that say_sector as default idea...
re-ed: I do agree with you Camps about the problems with global chat, I think you made an astute point about gloats and brags and what-nots, I'd just still like to see it stay.

What would prevent people from /request mut[ing] an unpopular character? Giving power to the community is a bad idea.

Also, Pyro, you make no money pirating. Once you're above 3 or 4 million, you do it for the PKs, not the money. Most people with good cargo are too hard to catch, and the ones you can catch have sector 4 widgets at 500 c/widget. Not profitable.

The problem with global chat is that it's a tool for spam and flames. If a person jumped me, shot me up, but then got wasted by my flares before they turn and run, my natural impulse would be "/say you know you really suck, you can't kill me even when I'm not looking." It's an ego thing, you want *everyone* else to know they can't kill you, not just them. I could /say_sector, but 90% of the players will say it globally. They don't want a response from the other player, they want the rest of the people on to "ooh and ahh" over their alleged l33tness. Removing global chat removes that possibility. For instance, there are several situations in which Player 1 griefs Player 2 until Player 2 apologizes for Incident 1 (shooting up Player's n00b teammate, etc.). Player 1 won't stop griefing Player 2 until Player 2 apologizes to Player 1 publicly. Why? Player 1 is no longer doing it for n00b teammate, but himself. Removing global chat removes the instant-gratification. It also creates a more realistic RPG enviroment. How does a bus in 1 communicate with someone in 18? Not possible inside your ship. In station, *maybe,* but not in-ship.

The community is too small to eliminate global chat. I enjoy global chat when it doesn't turn into a flamefest or people stop treating each other like hormonal adolecsents. I like Hoax's 75% idea. A vote and the offending player can be muted. We would probably want to keep it silent though. If someone bugs you, you send a /request mute "Magus" command. The game doesn't do or say anything, but if enough of the players send the command, I would get muted muted for 20 minutes and my log would stop updating. It should just leave a message that says, "Congratulations, you have successfully enraged X% of your fellow players, so you will not be able to speak for 20 minutes. Please cool down. It's just a game."

To prevent abuse we may want to set it up so that once a person gets muted the game automatically deducts some sum, like 500c for every person that sent a mute request.

I personnally beleive that Chat Abuse will continue as long as cross-nation chat exists. I personnally like the idea of removing Cross-nation chat and only leaving the PM, Team Chat, and Group Chat intact.

Also, as I have mentioned elsewhere, the real cause of piracy is money. Those who have none have nothing to lose so they pirate, those who have money are targeted and the situation boils as the few capable combat pilots rally to knock out the pirate and shouts of "teaming" and "ramming" become rampant.

I think that a base system need to be insituted where all pilots receive a small amount of cash (maybe 30-40k) at the reset to allow them to immediately purchase their own weapons and craft then go out as needed. I also would prospose that Cargo burn with the hauler attacked. Instead of the "undamaged" cargo passing through the destroyed craft, let the cargo be destroyed with the craft, or perhaps a percentage of the cargo is destroyed (say 60-75%) rounded down and with a 1 cargo piece minimum. That way bots would still drop 1 piece of cargo for players while piracy would no longer be as profitable for the pirates making them, hopefully, forced to pursue another carreer.

I also like Hunter's idea of Fines for players who kill other below a certain score (bots and Defbots exempt) so that new players would get a chance to learn the ropes before going out into the galaxy and being massacred by the busload. (no pun intended).

And banning was never understood to be the enforcement. I view banning as merely a cover-up for when enforcement isnt possible. I don't encourage the banning policy but when no other sanctions are possible the banning action must be taken. And right now no such sanction options exist other than muting and banning.

[SDF] Black 1
CO, SDF

I can only think of a few things but they're mainly for preventing griefing rather than the chat abuse :

Award money to people who successfully defend other people. (To encourage player protection.)
Maybe hull/weapon bonuses for those who are in groups.
Fines for people who kill those with a score below a certain number.
Or maybe lower/raise the sell/buy prices for those with high PKs. (both ship and cargo prices.)

Hmmm, I can't think of a good solution right off the bat, but I feel compelled to say that I really enjoy global chat and feel like the public atmosphere it presents is crucial to a good mmorpg.

Chat at any level can be abused, I've seen people spam and say dumb stuff in sector chat too (just to annoy those in the sector without tipping off the whole world to thier nefariousness), its no less annoying if your in the sector with them. I've been pm spammed as well. I guarantee that if you eliminate world chat, chat abusers will simply find a new way to cause you grief.

I think I'd preffer a solution leaning more towards member policed chat or some such thing. How about a /vote mute "foobar", 75% or more players and they are muted for an hour or a day or pending guide investigation.

How about this also, add every kind of chat you can think of, sector, team, group, world, station, whatever, but make it like radio channels that you can turn on or off. Don't like global chat? Turn it off but still recieve your important team messages and what not.

One more thing, if someone has offended you give them the bennefit of the doubt at least once. I've lost my temper before and had Phoenix ask me politly to watch my language. This simple reminder that some don't appreciate swearing is enough for me and probably others that don't MEAN to offend. At least give it a shot, I know some people just don't care but its better than starting a flame war. How's it go?: When you wrestle with a pig you both get muddy ... but the pig likes it!

That's an interesting idea regarding the global chat. I like it.

Regarding short-term guides: It's possible to create quite a bit of havoc in a very short period of time using the extra commands available to the guides. I'm fairly certain I could crash the server in under 5 minutes, to say nothing of the social mayhem I could create, so limiting the time factor doesn't really create a safegaurd. The guide interface would need to be overhauled to seriously nerf it, and we'd need a guide to watch the new guides.

I agree with Camps. The more people hear some [poor, midguided soul] saying what's on his mind, the more disagree and reply, etc. If something's a problem, keep it localized, keep it small. To encourage role-playing, how about having universal teamchat only within that team's controlled territory?

One way of doing this is creating a chat room out of the game a la Descent 3. You log into multiplayer, and you have the game chat room. A twist would be allowing global chat and universe-wide PMs (more powerful PM transmitter) only in-stations at a sort of EV-type bar room. Here you can trade inventory with players, negotiate prices, and talk to anyone online, assuming they're docked. in In game, you should be limited to universe-wide teamchat, all-player sector chat, a PM limited to bordering sectors, and a universe-wide group/clan chat. If you want to rant, it won't be done in the presence of those playing the game. This, I believe, will foster a healthier role-playing atmosphere.

Proposal: Eliminate in-game global chat. Either make it available before you load the universe or at in-station "bar rooms."

Well, of course the question is balancing the time you have with the needs of the community and your other commitments. In the grand scheme of things we don't pull much weight. The best solution is the one that puts the least strain on your time and finances.

I know that you specifically asked me not to do this, but it might just be easier to find more guides on a short-term basis. Candidates nominated by the community, chosen by the devs and/or guides, serving a three month sentence... er... term. Thus, the unwashed masses don't choose who the final guides are, but instead decide which candidates to put forward. If the devs don't like any of them, they can throw the whole bunch out. This prevents not only bad nominees, but also the perpetuation of a corrupt "Mod Aristocracy" like one might see on an IRC server.

My two pence are on the table. Where's my roll and coffee?

Ok, we originally implemented the Guide system, mostly because we weren't sure how to deal with the issues presented, and it's what "other people have done" (namely, EverQuest). However, over time it's become obvious to me that it's a pretty inherently flawed system. You can't rely on "niceness police" to make sure people play nice. It creates an administrative nightmare for the poor people charged with "policing", and it fosters a concept that if anyone is unhappy, they need only run to the Guide for help. Or yell at the Guide for not doing "enough", or not taking the action they desired, or whatever. A top-heavy administrative system where a group of people is responsible for "taking care" of everyone else. I don't think this is a very good long-term plan. Whistler has done a great job in this capacity, but not everyone is as responsible as he is, and selecting people for such a chore, in and of itself, would be a major problem.

Instead, I think the userbase should be responsible for itself as much as possible. I'm talking specifically here about verbally abusive in-game behaviour. Racist comments, personal attacks and the like. In-game voting and nominations to a "ban" list, or something along those lines, are possibilities. Right now it's tough to actually enforce any of this (which is why, for the moment, I'm telling people to mostly Lighten Up). Our game is still an open Test, people can sign up to new accounts any time. Banning is trivial to work around, as it only bans the account. Even ip-level banning is easy to circumvent for anyone on DHCP, unless we begin banning large blocks of their ISP's address space, which could then ban other people who've done nothing at all. It all becomes an administrative nightmare.

At some point in the future, when each account is backed by a credit card, prepaid fund, or some other unique medium.. it would be somewhat easier to enforce these sorts of rules. But, enforcement is one issue, enactment is another. And it's the latter that's really the biggest problem.

Finally, none of these systems (Guides or otherwise) are intended to enforce any sort of "gameplay behaviour". If piracy is possible within the game, then people can pirate. If an exploit exists, that displays a flaw in the game which should be addressed, I won't ban someone for that (although I might have a dim opinion of people who made use of an exploit and didn't report it). But, eventually, all exploits will come to our attention. Aside from true exploits, other in-game behaviour is "fair game". If a group of people gang up one on person and chase them around the universe, killing them constantly, that's not very nice. In which case, someone should petition for a gameplay change to address this (such as a faction system, defensive AI, etc), not to ban the individuals who demonstrated the flaws in the existing gameplay.

As always, I'm placed in the kind of unenviable position of presenting what I know, full-well, is an extremely unfinished and inherently flawed game to a group of people. Nothing that has happened in-game (piracy, griefing, abuse, whatever) has been a Big Surprise to us. We knew it would all happen, and that it would suck. The game we designed would probably not have nearly as many problems as we do now. But the game that we designed is not the game that you are currently playing. Unfortunately, that's all we have right now. And, given the instability of our company, I can't promise much else in the short term.

I would love to hear people's suggestions to addressing these kinds of problems, though. Suggestions other than "more guides", I hope.

first of all a few points,
* this is NOT a thread blaming ANYONE.
* keep the thread on topic for resolutions to the issues.
* Baning players is not a resolution.

After reading the entire past few threads, Id have to say its time for the devs to consider adding an extra guide and forum moderator.
Especilly with in game play deteriorating to little more then nasty messages and constant agression.
Possibly loging all in game chat, So that action can be taken, even if it isnt immediate. And adding an admin bot, So that users were action has been taken to supress the issues they are creating can message to recive details on rectifying the problem.
Possiby even haveing the server match rules on text, then useing that to set a mute for a time limit. Thus making the job easyer on the Guides.
afterall we all need holidays once in a while
Or remove the main chat. Make it so that its group chat, and team chat only.
This way nothing offencive can be said to anyone who isnt 1 on your team, or in your group.

Role Playing in a game that seems to have resolved to be a first person shoot em up, or capture the flag and trade wars, seems to me a little silly. Very few users actually Role Play, and present there persona to other players. infact at times I even see players using the Role Playing excuse for slaging off at another player.
I think to get the role playing back up and going, if thats the wish of the devs and players, we really need a place were we can get info on the chars. like a web link from the stats page, or similar. Even an ingame information box, in the hud. even just with the stats from the web site would be a great assistance to players. Maybe a list of the players last 5 kills.

The Karma system ive read about sounds like a good idea, but its to hard to impliment right now from what ive read. So no point in mentioning that again.

In any case, Id like to see what other ideas are out to make the game better, and to fix the community related problems that are being experianced by other players. Id also like input on the ideas above.

Thanks =)

First of all, thanks for the replys, Some great ideas and resons for and against my ideas have been posted.

* Pirateing has been mentioned several times, This thread isnt about pirates, most players accept pirates are part of the game, So id like to leave that and move on.
* incarnate, sorry if i offended you, that was not my intent, I didnt realise the "more guides" had been sugested before. anyway i can see why thats not an option. at least not for a long while anyway.

Ok i like the idea about the mute, except, even easyer then that, the Karma system could be implimented in the same way.
If you help someone they could give you a point, Say limit it to 1 per week, and if you kill someone, they could have the option of adding a point to your name.
These points could be made visable via the HUD.
And once a username recives to many points, that username canot be used for a week.
* username, as in ship name

Im not to keen on allowing users to Mute on a global scale unless it was initiated by a high percentage of users, I really think this will just cause more fustration and more senceless newbie killing. I have seen users muted before that go on a rampage. I really dont think this would be in the best intrests of the game as a whole.
A voteing system may work, as per Hoax's post, say if 80% of the online players voted it would make a mute for 1 hour.

I do however like the idea of sector chat being made default. Not sure how hard that would be to impliment with a patch. I could see that creating Major fustration for the devs, and killing a few alias's that users have made and had running for a long time.
This has been sugest before, Im resonably sure that its nearly imposible to impliment without breaking aliases.

SirCamps, I see your point on the communication idea, For the sake of role playing, a long range transmition can be the group command, requiring each person in the group to have the same encription key.

In regard to the chat, I really like the idea of having main chat outside of vendetta. Say a small irc client, even inside vendetta ie. like ArmyOps.
As for the ego boost, how about making the stats for a user avalible in the HUD, thus showing PK's etc. Id really like to hear more feedback on that idea.

As for the greifing, it was mentioned, and i dont really want to cover that here, but ill try a little anyway.
From what I understand it mainly happens when a group of piolits or even just a really experianced player kills the same user and camps outside the station waiting for them to exit.
How about making a button that allows the user to be sent back to the home sector. As a penalty, reduce there credits by a percentage, say by 20%.
Make it a station button, call it emergency extration or similar.
I took this idea from Dialbo II, were by you loose money for a death but start back in the town. Feedback on this would be nice as well.

A Level system could also be implimented, to compliment the emergency extration idea, based on the points a person has.
As long as the levels were assigned based on the points a user has. This might also add to the Role Playing component of the game. No damage from friendly fire could also be removed except for say home sectors, allowing for guilds to be more effective.

Thanks again for the constructive posts, Hopefully this thread becomes long and productive =)