I agree with wash at 2am because I can't sleep.

The only way you guys can claim you constructed a capship, while thinking it was going to be some sort of battle-wagon, is by willfully choosing to ignore reality.

The Trident config was definitely well-known by the time CD built the first one, and while the Goliath may have been overpowered for two whole days.. it was very publicly nerfed months before it became an actual manufacture-able ship.

Soo.. no, I don't buy the whole "I manufactured a capship and was super surprised I got a trade vessel!" thing.

I'm still not ruling out more interesting addons and stuff in the future. However, I'm also not currently in favor of ships that can solo-slaughter everything in the game without any substantial risk.

"It was known in advance? Well shit point me to the sign or thread that said that before I built mine."

http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/Trident_Light_Frigate
http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/Goliath_class_freighter

I can solo-slaughter the universe with a lot less than a capship, as can washy.

Pretty sure he just wants some player interaction, which has always been in it's most entertaining form, combat.

I'm sure if one day wash popped up in space with any kind of combat oriented capital ship he would slaughter the universe alone and with his friends, for as long as the rest of the universe fails to evolve their tactics. ;)

Personally, my capital ships are nothing more than a positionable dock with turrets, there's not much point to trading vessels in a broken economy.

A lot of us have kits assembled for ships that don't exist, you can understand why we would be upset having widgets rot in our inventories. I don't blame people for getting impatient, soontm is a strong meme here for a reason.

It is also possible for someone to build a capship and expect some sort of improvement over the course of many years, only for those improvements to never be made. The only thing that is poor is the lack combat capable capital ships.

Well here goes thread mute #4:

"The only way you guys can claim you constructed a capship, while thinking it was going to be some sort of battle-wagon, is by willfully choosing to ignore reality."

Yes we ignored the reality of you don't know ANY definition of what a "frigate" is (or don't care) and simply used that in the name so it sounded cool. That in "reality" is used car sales tactics, classy. The Goliath is more a frigate than the Trident is, by many English definitions of the word.

"while the Goliath may have been overpowered for two whole days.."

It still is but that is you ignoring reality not us. A quarter of the build requirements but all the same grid and battery levels meets the "any warship built for speed and maneuverability" definition more so than the Trident, so it can basically fly circles around any other capship while spamming multiple capitol weapons but its called a "freighter". If friagte has a different definiiton in the VO universe perhaps there should have been a god damn VO dictionary so we know words mean different things in the game universe.

"Soo.. no, I don't buy the whole "I manufactured a capship and was super surprised I got a trade vessel!" thing."

You don't thave to buy it but it is definiately how you are trying to sell it. Frigate = warship in pretty much every language in the world, but definiately not what it is.

"However, I'm also not currently in favor of ships that can solo-slaughter everything in the game without any substantial risk"

First of all "solo-slaughter" is not what anyone asked for (but clearly that is ok for NPCs and is considered an acceptable challenege for players as long as the server controls them). Useful realistic firing arcs and fire control are and as you are clearly against the Trident having those the next option was a request for an actual combat oriented capship if NPC pirates were going to have scaling capship bases based on how long they have survived.

So in summary: Calling the Trident any type of Frigate is either a big mistake on your part or an intentional attempt at deception so people think they are getting one thing but clearly are not.

I don't think it is an unreal expectation for players to have reasonable capship level combat in a fricken space ship shooter game. However if that goes against the "Grand Vision" perhaps the Grand Visioneer needs to go to the optometrist.

Sure. I guess I shouldn't have called it a "light frigate". Although as I've said before, my monikers are more age-of-sail than modern, when the transitions from armed merchant to warship were a little more vague and ambiguous. A "brig" might have been more accurate to my thinking, but more unfamiliar to people in language.

I was also building the Deneb conflict at the time, and actively trying to use the thing in a "military" role.

But basing a bunch of bitterness on that is silly. Regardless of name choices, poor or otherwise, you knew exactly what you were building.

I don't mind people being upset at the lack of promised Trident variants, and the like. But claiming you were "taken by surprise" in building a capship? That's a long time to suspend your awareness.

Useful realistic firing arcs and fire control are and as you are clearly against the Trident having those

Oh come on. I specifically said it was hard to fix, not that I was against it. We've actually been working on that, when we could. Ironic, in view of the next release.

Yes I was building a ship that has 4 turrets, a large port and shields that should be more effective and easier to command than it is.

That doesn't change that scaling up NPC pirate capships in combination with the aggressive AI should be balanced by a player capship more geared for capship to capship combat.

Incarnate always repeats that he knows things aren't perfect. You all know how he feels about things, yet you continue to berate him with personal opinions about how things "should" be and how easy it would be to "fix" things. As players, we only have our personal experiences, and while that is worth something, it only scratches the surface of the bigger picture and long term goals. It is pretty clear that the people that complain loudly, clearly know what they're doing and are simply trying to get a rise out of the devs. This shows how little you actually care about the game and its development. Move along if things here aren't working out for you in their current form. It is extremely difficult to understand how someone can spend most of their time (as in a significant proportion of their lifetime) in a game, yet whine about every single aspect of it. Blows my mind, honestly.

If you really want positive change in the game, and you'd like to give input on that change, we have a suggestions and bugs forum. Also, you can put in support tickets for things that are obviously broken and need to be addressed. Coming on the forums just to bash and belittle the game that you all spend so much time involved with is extremely unhelpful to what you're saying you'd like to see. Don't try the "I just want VO to succeed" argument, because if you did, you'd shut up and let them do their jobs.

For your own happiness, I suggest to anyone feeling so much angst, take a break from VO for a bit. I have a hunch that it will give you a feeling of appreciation for what this game has to offer us, which is something that no other game in existence has. And if you do find another game that offers all that and more, then congratulations. No one is going to hold it against you.

That doesn't change that scaling up NPC pirate capships in combination with the aggressive AI should be balanced by a player capship more geared for capship to capship combat.

That's an interesting opinion, and I understand where you're coming from, but I'm not required to agree with you.

In my opinion, veteran players are used to VO being pretty "easy" (aside from PvP and the like). People have solo'd the Leviathan for chrissakes. I'm adding in some newer, bigger challenges. And I don't think the first order of business is to give you enhanced tools that immediately make things easy again.

I'm not ruling out new hardware, but I do aim to build some much more substantial challenges, and see what happens. Which is amusingly what led to this ranty discussion. Oh no, Incarnate is adding stuff to the game!

@Darth

I didn't even come fucking close to berating. I never asked for perfect I asked for marginally better than it is now which I don't think anyone will say is unreasonable. If you think it is then perhaps you are happy lounging on the "it is what it is" pool of people and not trying to help progress things forward.

Believe me if I was trying to just get a rise out of the devs I could do that in a much easier fashion.

Move along if things aren't working out? Are you fucking serious? Yes that is a brilliant piece of advice to a game that already seems to have a dwindling population. IF you are happy sitting in B8 waiting for people to show up and fight you go right ahead with that. Some of us would like to fly around and find things to shoot in new and meaningful ways.

I do want positive change and I have posted in Suggestions and if you happen to go look at the new Top 10 requests thread you will see that only myself and We All Float seem to have a clue of how to follow directions in submitting them.

"Shut up and let them do their jobs" ? Dude go fuck yourself. As a player I am giving feedback on the game from my player persecutive, I don't expect them to assume that everyone see it that way just that I do.

Angst? Yes when someone tells me that I interpret Frigate to mean something that I'm quite sure the majority of the population of the planet would assume it to mean as well, as wrong because I'm not an age of sail buff then yes you are god damn right I'm going to have angst about it.

Your guide powers have turned you into another condescending petty functionary with a clip board.

FYI ^^^ thats how you berate someone.

@INC

I don;t expect it to be easy, but flying a rag in and out of sector shooting an NPC with guided missles is boring as fuck. And pretty much unless there is a huge influx of players that can answer the clue phone that is the only other reasonable way of attacking NPC capshiops.

I don;t expect it to be easy, but flying a rag in and out of sector shooting an NPC with guided missles is boring as fuck. And pretty much unless there is a huge influx of players that can answer the clue phone that is the only other reasonable way of attacking NPC capshiops

No, you're just really limiting your thinking. For instance, there's a whole other category of weapons that hasn't been expanded for various technical reasons: the torpedo.

Capships are not the only solution, nor even the most interesting solution.

Yes when someone tells me that I interpret Frigate to mean something that I'm quite sure the majority of the population of the planet would assume it to mean as well, as wrong because I'm not an age of sail buff then yes you are god damn right I'm going to have angst about it.

Uhh. I didn't say you were wrong. I said I was probably wrong to call it that. I just mentioned the other stuff to explain my thinking at the time.

None of this leads to "my level of angst is totally justified!". Like, I get that this topic is probably a focal point for a decade of frustration with slow or opaque development progress. But on the face of it, the claim of "you used the wrong word!" doesn't really justify how bitter you are about this.

I assure youI am not limiting my thinking. I'm one of the few people that come s up with creative way to accomplish things.

While capship to capship is not the only option it would by far be the most fun i.e. two capships battling out like two fighters do.

While capship to capship is not the only option it would by far be the most fun i.e. two capships battling out like two fighters do.

The mechanics don't exist to make that work the way I want it to, yet. I don't want capship battles to be over super quickly, which is what happens if I just dial up damage a lot.

I do have goals for this stuff, they may just look different from your goals.

As to whether (different, more complex) coordinated torpedo runs or cap battles are more "fun".. That's subjective.

I don;t expect dialed up damage, and you are correct that is subjective on the tactic being more fun.

I would like to see the quite capable weapons we already have be slightly better in there capable direction of fire and control. Having to spin up 4 gunners and write LUA to control them while being some what of a challenge is jsut a royal pain in the ass for something that legitimately should be done via game mechanics rather than plugin.

@DarthNih

It is pretty clear that the people that complain loudly, clearly know what they're doing and are simply trying to get a rise out of the devs. This shows how little you actually care about the game and its development. Move along if things here aren't working out for you in their current form.

No.

@Inc

Actually PVP is easy too, people don't realize "veterans" is just a codeword for PC players. We're not asking for enhanced tools, just a bit of variety with a dash of consistency.

@Wash

Inc something new for deneb?

I would like to see the quite capable weapons we already have be slightly better in there capable direction of fire and control. Having to spin up 4 gunners and write LUA to control them while being some what of a challenge is jsut a royal pain in the ass for something that legitimately should be done via game mechanics rather than plugin.

As to the firing arc, I already said I was open to changing it, but that it was harder than we expected. Quite a bit more complex than expected, actually. Ray and I had a lengthy and confusing series of discussions on that last night.

Automated turret control gets into a whole other rats nest of actual implementation. Capships being flying stations, that are sort-of players, except when players leave and then they're not-players anymore (which can happen at any time), and okay now they have to have these destructable NPCs parented onto them, when those were only written to be parented onto other NPCs, and then.. blah blah.

Long story short, it's easy to call it "something that legitimately should be done via game mechanics rather than plugin", but I'm still just happy you have a bloody working capship at all. I mean, we're still fixing bugs with the existing (simpler) versions, on a regular basis.

Anyway, yeah, better firing control would be interesting. My whole tactical officer mode would probably be neat too, because at least it doesn't automate everything.

But, we aren't holding back some trivial change here, because we're ignorant and spiteful. Juggling development is always a challenge, and you know enough about our history and lack of resources.

Finally, none of this justifies the level of angst. You knew exactly what the capship configurations were before you ever started building them. I'm not frustratingly preventing your dreams and desires from coming true, I'm just trying to manage a massive codebase and project with almost no people, and sometimes things that you wish were "simple" are actually "stupidly hard". So.. lighten up.

Locking, as I think this has gone on far enough..