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Ohmehgewrd a new thread on the Golianerf!
I'm incredibly disappointed in the Goliath nerf. I completely understand how overpowered its old ports were, but in any case...
Mining, the Behemoth Heavy Miner is far more useful, as it can fill its loads much quicker, coming back and filling up again and again before the Goliath has completed one single load. As for jet mining, well, you're better off using a Ragnarok and a Behemoth of any variation, that way you're not restricted to capital systems for mining and you can still collect your ore from the vacuum of space much quicker regardless of what system you are mining in, capital or not.
PVE, while free repairs are pretty dandy, the firepower and shields are a liability if fancy fighting any group of enemies that fire at the same time, or queens. Even in Deneb, it is useless, as it can't de-shield anything and you would be far safer repairing and refilling in any of the NPC ships that are available. In fighter skirmishes, however, well you're safe! Well, unless a player joins in which case read PVP.
PVP, since the large port remains the ship can fire on other capital ships, but none of you will be able to do the damage necessary to de-shield each other, so use a Ragnarok and leave your Goliath at home, where it is safe. As for combat support like repairing and refilling in the field, the goliath can be de-shielded with great ease in a variety of setups (Xperia can do it with a Tri-Flare Valkyrie and Sieger can with Dual flare Marauder) So it's easier to jump to a station than risk the five million credit loss. Any fighters available can just dog pile the de-shielded, vulnerable ship and destroy it within a few minutes. It's okay though it's not a combat ship...
Hauling freight, the Goliath due to its cargo capacity is now useless. 300cu total If you use a Behemoth XC to load and unload, and as someone said you could use smaller ships like a Centurion and then switch to a Behemoth XC in the station, but even then it would be far more efficient to use a solitary Behemoth XC to get your freight from point A to point B, the Behemoth XC is much quicker and the only downside to replacing your Goliath with a pre-existing transport is that your pre-existing transport does not have a shield (Read PVP) this is quickly canceled out however when you realize that the Goliath needs one of these pre-existing transports to unload at non-capital stations anyway, which means that by the time your Goliath gets to Latos I-8 from Dau L-10 it is has dropped off one and a half the load of an XC, while your friend doing the same route has dropped off twice that by just using the Behemoth XC on its own.
(Notes I: Some of this is relevant to the Trident Type M as well)
(Notes II: This really doesn't deserve to be in the suggestion forums, there are enough smart players pointing out ways to make Capital Ships useful)
(Notes III While the Goliath can dock three Behemoth XC's and store 600cu, this isn't really supposed to happen and has been suggested as a fix before. Because of the glitch like nature of this, i'm going leave my statements about freight hauling as they are, if people choose to use them glitch then I should say something, but I'm sure that I shouldn't act as if the glitch was by design and state hauling freight isn't going to be affected because of an exploit than hasn't, but will be, addressed)
People are calling him Incarnerf now LOL
I'm incredibly disappointed in the Goliath nerf. I completely understand how overpowered its old ports were, but in any case...
Mining, the Behemoth Heavy Miner is far more useful, as it can fill its loads much quicker, coming back and filling up again and again before the Goliath has completed one single load. As for jet mining, well, you're better off using a Ragnarok and a Behemoth of any variation, that way you're not restricted to capital systems for mining and you can still collect your ore from the vacuum of space much quicker regardless of what system you are mining in, capital or not.
PVE, while free repairs are pretty dandy, the firepower and shields are a liability if fancy fighting any group of enemies that fire at the same time, or queens. Even in Deneb, it is useless, as it can't de-shield anything and you would be far safer repairing and refilling in any of the NPC ships that are available. In fighter skirmishes, however, well you're safe! Well, unless a player joins in which case read PVP.
PVP, since the large port remains the ship can fire on other capital ships, but none of you will be able to do the damage necessary to de-shield each other, so use a Ragnarok and leave your Goliath at home, where it is safe. As for combat support like repairing and refilling in the field, the goliath can be de-shielded with great ease in a variety of setups (Xperia can do it with a Tri-Flare Valkyrie and Sieger can with Dual flare Marauder) So it's easier to jump to a station than risk the five million credit loss. Any fighters available can just dog pile the de-shielded, vulnerable ship and destroy it within a few minutes. It's okay though it's not a combat ship...
Hauling freight, the Goliath due to its cargo capacity is now useless. 300cu total If you use a Behemoth XC to load and unload, and as someone said you could use smaller ships like a Centurion and then switch to a Behemoth XC in the station, but even then it would be far more efficient to use a solitary Behemoth XC to get your freight from point A to point B, the Behemoth XC is much quicker and the only downside to replacing your Goliath with a pre-existing transport is that your pre-existing transport does not have a shield (Read PVP) this is quickly canceled out however when you realize that the Goliath needs one of these pre-existing transports to unload at non-capital stations anyway, which means that by the time your Goliath gets to Latos I-8 from Dau L-10 it is has dropped off one and a half the load of an XC, while your friend doing the same route has dropped off twice that by just using the Behemoth XC on its own.
(Notes I: Some of this is relevant to the Trident Type M as well)
(Notes II: This really doesn't deserve to be in the suggestion forums, there are enough smart players pointing out ways to make Capital Ships useful)
(Notes III While the Goliath can dock three Behemoth XC's and store 600cu, this isn't really supposed to happen and has been suggested as a fix before. Because of the glitch like nature of this, i'm going leave my statements about freight hauling as they are, if people choose to use them glitch then I should say something, but I'm sure that I shouldn't act as if the glitch was by design and state hauling freight isn't going to be affected because of an exploit than hasn't, but will be, addressed)
People are calling him Incarnerf now LOL
You can put 3 XC's on board for 600 cu. Or 2 XC and a combat ship for 400 cu. I agree with the rest of your comments overall.
Yes, I desheilded Forrester's goliath with a Triflare x1 and tunguska centuar agresso, it needs a buff incarnerf...erm i mean incarnate.
"People are calling him Incarnerf now LOL"
Is this how you intend to persuade the most powerful man in the VO universe, who has just worked his ass off to give us something to play with over the holiday break?
Is this how you intend to persuade the most powerful man in the VO universe, who has just worked his ass off to give us something to play with over the holiday break?
@Whistler
I did not get a free week for holidays, can I call him Ebenezer?
[/edit: No- it's not helpful. If you think you deserve a free week you can contact the devs. -W]
I did not get a free week for holidays, can I call him Ebenezer?
[/edit: No- it's not helpful. If you think you deserve a free week you can contact the devs. -W]
@Whistler
This was directed at other players, not the developers. This kind of talk happens all the time over 100 and I'm honestly laughing at how quickly a new a joke was found after the bad taste of missing deadlines disappeared. I didn't start the joke I'm just commenting on it.
As for motivating the developers, I want to talk about the Goliath and as a single grain of sand, I can do nothing to convince the developers of anything that the rest of the desert doesn't agree with. So I would rather discuss spaceships and whether or not they are useful.
We may disagree on many things Whistler and I have much respect for you, but I honestly believe you are being too defensive of the developers.
This was directed at other players, not the developers. This kind of talk happens all the time over 100 and I'm honestly laughing at how quickly a new a joke was found after the bad taste of missing deadlines disappeared. I didn't start the joke I'm just commenting on it.
As for motivating the developers, I want to talk about the Goliath and as a single grain of sand, I can do nothing to convince the developers of anything that the rest of the desert doesn't agree with. So I would rather discuss spaceships and whether or not they are useful.
We may disagree on many things Whistler and I have much respect for you, but I honestly believe you are being too defensive of the developers.
The Suggestions forum is, by definition, directed at the developers.
You are incorrect in stating that the rest of the "sand" must agree with you in order to convince the developers of anything. If an idea is good they may use it regardless of the popularity vote.
I am not defending the devs. They make their decisions and will benefit or suffer because of them. I AM pointing out that your manner of communication is not persuasive because it is impolite - regardless of who coined the term.
/edit: Got me there. Not Suggestions.
You are incorrect in stating that the rest of the "sand" must agree with you in order to convince the developers of anything. If an idea is good they may use it regardless of the popularity vote.
I am not defending the devs. They make their decisions and will benefit or suffer because of them. I AM pointing out that your manner of communication is not persuasive because it is impolite - regardless of who coined the term.
/edit: Got me there. Not Suggestions.
This is not a suggestion hence why it's not in the suggestion forum.
This thread wasn't made so I can debate back and forth with a moderator on whether or not I'm a polite person. I put it in general because I wanted to talk with fellow players about the pros and cons of the Goliath, the joke was there because I find it funny how quickly the players of Vendetta Online turn on an idea.
The sand and desert thing, well, I think it's entirely possible that a good or bad idea can get into the VO universe via suggestions, however, my suggestions for the Goliath go against Incarnates overall vision for the ship, so to suggest what I've already said in the past is a waste of time. To suggest new and original ideas depends entirely on whether or not I can convince myself to push those ideas into the open while many people are upset, angry or feel like they have been cheated. It's hard for me to convince myself to add to that.
I am a person without a filter when I put my hands to a keyboard I'm not really tactful in the way I express my opinions or humor. So it is better for me to avoid being mean or distasteful by only +1-ing good ideas and avoiding the player, moderator, and developer outrage when I unintentionally hurt someone's feeling with my words. I wanted to type without addressing the developers so I decided general would be better than RP or Off-topic that way I can talk to players about the Goliath without creating a rant filled suggestion that would likely have to be moderated.
That being said...What do you think about the Goliath?
This thread wasn't made so I can debate back and forth with a moderator on whether or not I'm a polite person. I put it in general because I wanted to talk with fellow players about the pros and cons of the Goliath, the joke was there because I find it funny how quickly the players of Vendetta Online turn on an idea.
The sand and desert thing, well, I think it's entirely possible that a good or bad idea can get into the VO universe via suggestions, however, my suggestions for the Goliath go against Incarnates overall vision for the ship, so to suggest what I've already said in the past is a waste of time. To suggest new and original ideas depends entirely on whether or not I can convince myself to push those ideas into the open while many people are upset, angry or feel like they have been cheated. It's hard for me to convince myself to add to that.
I am a person without a filter when I put my hands to a keyboard I'm not really tactful in the way I express my opinions or humor. So it is better for me to avoid being mean or distasteful by only +1-ing good ideas and avoiding the player, moderator, and developer outrage when I unintentionally hurt someone's feeling with my words. I wanted to type without addressing the developers so I decided general would be better than RP or Off-topic that way I can talk to players about the Goliath without creating a rant filled suggestion that would likely have to be moderated.
That being said...What do you think about the Goliath?
I think you underestimate you ability to manage your own behavior. Diplomacy is a huge part of persuasion, and failing to use it can often result in otherwise reasonable people rejecting ideas they would normally embrace.
As for the Goliath, I don't think it's dialed in for it's stated purpose as a freighter yet. I think Inc's adjustments closely resemble that of an engineer who is making drastic initial adjustments to understand the impact of each parameter before settling into fine-tuning. The first move seemed more drastic because the initial setup did not match his specs. I don't think Inc will be swayed from his vision for the Goliath, but I think it's likely that he has noted the desire for a "battle wagon".
As for the Goliath, I don't think it's dialed in for it's stated purpose as a freighter yet. I think Inc's adjustments closely resemble that of an engineer who is making drastic initial adjustments to understand the impact of each parameter before settling into fine-tuning. The first move seemed more drastic because the initial setup did not match his specs. I don't think Inc will be swayed from his vision for the Goliath, but I think it's likely that he has noted the desire for a "battle wagon".
I'm of a different mind, I think Incarnates drastic changes only make sense when you realize that overstuffing is a thing. Having a drastic change like that makes it the Sub-Trident that has been suggested by a few people in the past and the insanely small cargo hold is just -200Cu and planning for the inevitable bug abuse that many people were going to use anyway, overstuffing.
I myself never planned on over stuffing the Goliath, I don't think I should need to and I think that Light Warships such as Tridents shouldn't really excel at hauling, after all, people lost their minds over the concept of a battle wagon only because the Trident was never a combat ship.
Also for keeping team-play in the game the devs could've removed less than six ports and still made it the "All-rounder" that every veteran wanted.
I myself never planned on over stuffing the Goliath, I don't think I should need to and I think that Light Warships such as Tridents shouldn't really excel at hauling, after all, people lost their minds over the concept of a battle wagon only because the Trident was never a combat ship.
Also for keeping team-play in the game the devs could've removed less than six ports and still made it the "All-rounder" that every veteran wanted.
Well if one thing is for sure, then it is that it does not take all of the "desert" to convince the developers. In the past, I have seen horrible things being implemented that were suggested/backed by a very small, but vocal number of players and then the devs rolled it in while the few players giggled. When somebody asked the devs why the heck they did that, incarnate would usually reply "I planned to do this anyway sometime". That may be the truth in some cases, but it leaves an odd taste when it needs some lunatic forum lovers to first make a thread about it.
Anyway! I totally agree the Goliath-nerf was horrible and that everyone with a Trident has no reason to fly a Goliath now. I have few hope that it will ever be changed back to old glory. But if I had a say, I'd suggest giving it 2 large ports and 2 small ports. And another large port for the Trident Type M + its cargo upped to 1200 cu.
And also cut the cargo/docked ship relations and make it so a Goliath has space for 2-3 ships docked and the Trident has room for 5 or 6 or something. And the cargo should be independant from that. Boom. No more overstuffing. Everyone can do whatever they like with their docking space then. use it up for fat Moths or have a bunch of fighters ready to defend.
EDIT: To prove the power of hope has not fully left me yet, I launched three very positive and happy HOPE threads at the suggestions forum! View them here:
Hope-Forum action Part I: Buff the Trident Type M!
Hope-Forum action part II: Buff the Goliath!
Hope-Forum action Part III: Seperate capital ship cargo space from docking ports!
Anyway! I totally agree the Goliath-nerf was horrible and that everyone with a Trident has no reason to fly a Goliath now. I have few hope that it will ever be changed back to old glory. But if I had a say, I'd suggest giving it 2 large ports and 2 small ports. And another large port for the Trident Type M + its cargo upped to 1200 cu.
And also cut the cargo/docked ship relations and make it so a Goliath has space for 2-3 ships docked and the Trident has room for 5 or 6 or something. And the cargo should be independant from that. Boom. No more overstuffing. Everyone can do whatever they like with their docking space then. use it up for fat Moths or have a bunch of fighters ready to defend.
EDIT: To prove the power of hope has not fully left me yet, I launched three very positive and happy HOPE threads at the suggestions forum! View them here:
Hope-Forum action Part I: Buff the Trident Type M!
Hope-Forum action part II: Buff the Goliath!
Hope-Forum action Part III: Seperate capital ship cargo space from docking ports!
Docking bays would not solve the overstuffing, you would just get 1200cu extra cargo space + you could put 5-6 fully loaded XCs on it.
In fact it would increase overstuffing.
In fact it would increase overstuffing.
No, it is no longer "overstuffing" then, silly. Everyone could decide how they use their ports then. Less safety by going all loaded with trade ships, or more safety with fighters inside. The amount of cargo the TTM as a "freighter" can carry is laughable anyway. It'd still be reasonable, even if somebody loaded 5 XCs into it.
Really?
Current practice is to load 1 fighter and 5 XCs giving Trident a total of 1000cu cargo on it.
Most traders do not bother with fighters and just load 6 XCs to up the cargo to 1200cu.
Now let's do some math:
Your proposed Trident with 5 docking bays and 1200cu cargo space.
1 fighter + 4 XCs = 800 cu cargo + 1200 cu cargo space = 2000cu
5 XCs = 1000 cu cargo + 1200 cu cargo space = 2200 cu
How is that not increased overstuffing?
Current practice is to load 1 fighter and 5 XCs giving Trident a total of 1000cu cargo on it.
Most traders do not bother with fighters and just load 6 XCs to up the cargo to 1200cu.
Now let's do some math:
Your proposed Trident with 5 docking bays and 1200cu cargo space.
1 fighter + 4 XCs = 800 cu cargo + 1200 cu cargo space = 2000cu
5 XCs = 1000 cu cargo + 1200 cu cargo space = 2200 cu
How is that not increased overstuffing?
Because 2200cu (added up through available cargo space aswell as the choice to load 6 XCs and be relatively vulnerable to attacks) is - in my opinion - a reasonable cargo capacity for a player constructed Trident that has taken months to construct or cost a player a lot of credits if he skipped the work by buying parts from other players.
Sieger:
"Well if one thing is for sure, then it is that it does not take all of the "desert" to convince the developers. In the past, I have seen horrible things being implemented that were suggested/backed by a very small, but vocal number of players and then the devs rolled it in while the few players giggled. When somebody asked the devs why the heck they did that, incarnate would usually reply "I planned to do this anyway sometime". That may be the truth in some cases, but it leaves an odd taste when it needs some lunatic forum lovers to first make a thread about it."
Correlation does not equal causation.
I signed up in 2002 and have had 14 years to observe and interact with Incarnate. I can tell you that I have never observed him to be swayed to do anything that did not further his vision of VO. We may not all agree with his vision all the time, but I can assure you that nobody has undue influence on it.
"Well if one thing is for sure, then it is that it does not take all of the "desert" to convince the developers. In the past, I have seen horrible things being implemented that were suggested/backed by a very small, but vocal number of players and then the devs rolled it in while the few players giggled. When somebody asked the devs why the heck they did that, incarnate would usually reply "I planned to do this anyway sometime". That may be the truth in some cases, but it leaves an odd taste when it needs some lunatic forum lovers to first make a thread about it."
Correlation does not equal causation.
I signed up in 2002 and have had 14 years to observe and interact with Incarnate. I can tell you that I have never observed him to be swayed to do anything that did not further his vision of VO. We may not all agree with his vision all the time, but I can assure you that nobody has undue influence on it.
I think we can all agree that Incarnate never intended to have more than one large port on the Goliath.
Also +1-ing Siegers ideas to see if what people say about sand and deserts is correct =)
Also +1-ing Siegers ideas to see if what people say about sand and deserts is correct =)
A fix to overstuffing docking bays with cargo transports plus cargo bays is to have a limit on the cu space of the docking bay. Make each docking bay 200cu, with the last one (Captain's/Pilot's Bay?) 300cu. Therefore you'd only could carry a maximum of one XC and only fighters in the other bays (Centaurs at most).
Mr.Kruger - Haha. We'll see where it goes.
A-Dawg - Sure, if the developers disagree and think that risking people having too many XCs aboard is bad, then I'm not opposed to limiting it to 1 or 2 ports that allow ships up to 300cu and the other ports allowing ships 200cu and lower. That's good with me then.
Whistler - Heh. I didn't mean to make it sound like incarnate's choices are constantly influenced by a small group of people. Heck, I know just as well that he has his view on things and that he walks the way he wants to walk. I suppose all in all, that's good for VO. Or we wouldn't still be running.
I just said there can be an odd taste. Or atleast the assumption that said small group encouraged the change that may seem "horrible" to the larger group of players. Nothing more.
A-Dawg - Sure, if the developers disagree and think that risking people having too many XCs aboard is bad, then I'm not opposed to limiting it to 1 or 2 ports that allow ships up to 300cu and the other ports allowing ships 200cu and lower. That's good with me then.
Whistler - Heh. I didn't mean to make it sound like incarnate's choices are constantly influenced by a small group of people. Heck, I know just as well that he has his view on things and that he walks the way he wants to walk. I suppose all in all, that's good for VO. Or we wouldn't still be running.
I just said there can be an odd taste. Or atleast the assumption that said small group encouraged the change that may seem "horrible" to the larger group of players. Nothing more.
It really wasn't a small group of people who wanted the Goliath nerfed. It was basically the majority of players, but I will say that no player wanted it nerfed this much. However, it's hard for us to see the big picture of how the dev's want the ships to be balanced with the future ships they plan on releasing. I'm goign to run with the assumption that that the Type-S and P will fill in the gaps between the current Goliath, Type-M, and future Capella capships.