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We had this dicussion somewhere in the forums, with sides taken on whether people should simply be "thick skinned" or whether people should be more sensitive. I just found it interesting that these laws are apparently having a positive effect.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/08/health/anti-bullying-laws-work/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/08/health/anti-bullying-laws-work/index.html
There is a world of difference between kids going to school and grown-ups playing an online game.
This comparison is unfair.
This comparison is unfair.
Who said we were all grown-ups?
You're a kid? that explains a lot.
Also it's rich coming from you.
Also it's rich coming from you.
They have just adopted olweus at our school;
http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/cyber_bullying.page
http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/cyber_bullying.page
failure, we already know you are a bully. you don't have to prove it in a thread about bullying -- it's kinda over the top.
Pointing the finger doesn't solve anything.
I don't think any reasonable person would suggest that people just need to be more "thick skinned" when it comes to bullying. This thread seems needlessly dramatic, especially given Inc's recent news post. Was the intention to have a conversation about what constitutes bullying? That might be better done in Off-Topic. Was it to create more user-drama? If so, at the very least expect this thread to be locked.
That there are people 13 and up playing this game is a safe assumption.
I don't think any reasonable person would suggest that people just need to be more "thick skinned" when it comes to bullying. This thread seems needlessly dramatic, especially given Inc's recent news post. Was the intention to have a conversation about what constitutes bullying? That might be better done in Off-Topic. Was it to create more user-drama? If so, at the very least expect this thread to be locked.
That there are people 13 and up playing this game is a safe assumption.
I'm sorry Phaserlight, I thought a discussion about bullying was as "on topic" as could be, given recent events. Or maybe you are unaware of the proliferation of bullying that has driven the events that lead to Incarnate's news post?
Certainly there needs to be some degree of thick-skinnedness, otherwise games like this would recieve 100x more support tickets for abuse than they do now.
This doesn't have to be overly dramatic, if trolls would simply keep their fingers out of it. We can have a completely level-headed discussion.
Certainly there needs to be some degree of thick-skinnedness, otherwise games like this would recieve 100x more support tickets for abuse than they do now.
This doesn't have to be overly dramatic, if trolls would simply keep their fingers out of it. We can have a completely level-headed discussion.
Sure there are reasonable people who would suggest that people be more "thick skinned" when it comes to "bullying" -- because not everybody agrees on what constitutes bullying. I play a pirate. I get accused of being a bully all the time. Am I unreasonable to say that maybe a person doesn't have thick enough skin to play this game, if being blown up against their will sends them into hysterics?
Just because Bob cries "Bully!" and Alice says "Man up" doesn't mean Alice is automatically in the wrong.
I mean, I'm not saying we shouldn't oppose actual bullying, and I'm glad to hear that things are improving in the schools. That's great. But what I'm saying is that waving your hands around about "bullying" in a context like Vendetta is meaningless. People are too sloppy and varied in their definitions. It is better to spell out exactly which behaviors you have a problem with and why, than to just say "bullying is bad, guys, stop it".
Just because Bob cries "Bully!" and Alice says "Man up" doesn't mean Alice is automatically in the wrong.
I mean, I'm not saying we shouldn't oppose actual bullying, and I'm glad to hear that things are improving in the schools. That's great. But what I'm saying is that waving your hands around about "bullying" in a context like Vendetta is meaningless. People are too sloppy and varied in their definitions. It is better to spell out exactly which behaviors you have a problem with and why, than to just say "bullying is bad, guys, stop it".
greenie:
So, legitimate RP pirating is "bullying" to you? Hilarious!!!!
So, legitimate RP pirating is "bullying" to you? Hilarious!!!!
About the pirating bit, its no different than playing BF4/WOT and expecting to not get shot at.
You are in a shooter sim, of-course someone is going to shoot at you.
Piracy/nationalism is part of the game.
However we do have a ROC https://www.vendetta-online.com/h/conduct.html
which should be the defining line for what is considered over and beyond and what isn't. Following those rules also discourages bullying.
*Also there should be a guideline for what the punishments will be for when said rules are broken, but I cannot find it.
You are in a shooter sim, of-course someone is going to shoot at you.
Piracy/nationalism is part of the game.
However we do have a ROC https://www.vendetta-online.com/h/conduct.html
which should be the defining line for what is considered over and beyond and what isn't. Following those rules also discourages bullying.
*Also there should be a guideline for what the punishments will be for when said rules are broken, but I cannot find it.
That quote is not quite authentic. Inigo Montoya did not use a contraction. Just a completely irrelevant pedantic FYI. :P
On topic, Greenwall did not specify what he was accusing you of being a bully over. I doubt he meant piracy itself, because that would be silly. And misunderstandings like that are why I don't think we should bother using the term "bully" here at all -- it just results in people not being clear due to everybody having different definitions and being unable to accurately predict which definition somebody else is using.
On topic, Greenwall did not specify what he was accusing you of being a bully over. I doubt he meant piracy itself, because that would be silly. And misunderstandings like that are why I don't think we should bother using the term "bully" here at all -- it just results in people not being clear due to everybody having different definitions and being unable to accurately predict which definition somebody else is using.
misunderstandings like that are why I don't think we should bother using the term "bully" here at all -- it just results in people not being clear due to everybody having different definitions and being unable to accurately predict which definition somebody else is using.
Agreed. That was the point of the meme, but you seemed to be criticizing the use of the Inigo Montoya quote.
Let's hear from greenie exactly what he meant by "bullying," eh?
Agreed. That was the point of the meme, but you seemed to be criticizing the use of the Inigo Montoya quote.
Let's hear from greenie exactly what he meant by "bullying," eh?
Why don't you forum SJWs get in-game and shoot space lazers at eachother or something?
But what I'm saying is that waving your hands around about "bullying" in a context like Vendetta is meaningless. People are too sloppy and varied in their definitions. It is better to spell out exactly which behaviors you have a problem with and why, than to just say "bullying is bad, guys, stop it".
It's not meaningless, Rin. It's complicated, but not meaningless.
It's impossible to have a game that both fosters and encourages conflict and competition that has no element of provocation. Provocation is necessary in VO. Bullying is a type of provocation. There are different degrees and sensitivities to bullying. Some types of bullying people would deem ok, some types people would deem excessive and destructive.
The complicated part is reconciling the RoC with the need for provocation. The RoC send the message that we should "play nice", but the game itself tells us in so many ways to "not play nice".
Obviously Guild Software doesn't have the resources to employ a greater guide/moderator presence, and as a result they have had to rely largely on the self-regulation of the player base to determine what the acceptable balance between "nice" and "not nice" is. This can be (and has been) a very good thing, especially when guild participation is high and leadership has both influence (and interest in excercising that influence) over it's members for the sake of the game as a whole. In other words, I recall a time in VO where more conflicts were handled between leaders and resolved before things got to the point where either side felt it was necessary to use exploits (whether directly or indirectly) to punish their enemies, or where either side felt it acceptable to censor opposing views (through /vote mute), or where either side thought it was acceptable to spread lies, excessive profanity and sexually explicit/derogatory insults and hate-mongering all over public chat channels. I'm not saying it didn't EVER happen, but it certainly didn't happen on the scale I see now. Maybe my glasses are rose colored?
Unfortunately, in the last couple years self-regulation has been breaking down steadily while unrestrained exploitation is increasingly being exposed and utilized in the pursuit of victory over enemies, this hand-in-hand with increased unrestrained bullying. The limits that a greater majority of players maintained on their types of "provocation" have eroded; most reasonable people would agree it is having a VERY damaging effect on the game, both from the player side AND the development side.
I'm curious what people think about that, what they think the cause (of this degradation) might be, and/or what a solution might be to improve things (if they agree things need to be improved). Incarnate clearly cannot and will not provide the kind of moderation that we would like to see (not a criticism, just reality), so the solution, if any, has to come from elsewhere.
And, failure, trolling can be a form of bullying, and this comment was your attempt at trolling what was an otherwise level-headed attempt at a discussion:
You're a kid? that explains a lot.
Also it's rich coming from you.
It may have not been the most offensive example of your normal practice, but it's certainly not the first time you've done it on these forums, and I'm sure it won't be the last. This is what I meant when I ascribed the term "bully" to you.
It's not meaningless, Rin. It's complicated, but not meaningless.
It's impossible to have a game that both fosters and encourages conflict and competition that has no element of provocation. Provocation is necessary in VO. Bullying is a type of provocation. There are different degrees and sensitivities to bullying. Some types of bullying people would deem ok, some types people would deem excessive and destructive.
The complicated part is reconciling the RoC with the need for provocation. The RoC send the message that we should "play nice", but the game itself tells us in so many ways to "not play nice".
Obviously Guild Software doesn't have the resources to employ a greater guide/moderator presence, and as a result they have had to rely largely on the self-regulation of the player base to determine what the acceptable balance between "nice" and "not nice" is. This can be (and has been) a very good thing, especially when guild participation is high and leadership has both influence (and interest in excercising that influence) over it's members for the sake of the game as a whole. In other words, I recall a time in VO where more conflicts were handled between leaders and resolved before things got to the point where either side felt it was necessary to use exploits (whether directly or indirectly) to punish their enemies, or where either side felt it acceptable to censor opposing views (through /vote mute), or where either side thought it was acceptable to spread lies, excessive profanity and sexually explicit/derogatory insults and hate-mongering all over public chat channels. I'm not saying it didn't EVER happen, but it certainly didn't happen on the scale I see now. Maybe my glasses are rose colored?
Unfortunately, in the last couple years self-regulation has been breaking down steadily while unrestrained exploitation is increasingly being exposed and utilized in the pursuit of victory over enemies, this hand-in-hand with increased unrestrained bullying. The limits that a greater majority of players maintained on their types of "provocation" have eroded; most reasonable people would agree it is having a VERY damaging effect on the game, both from the player side AND the development side.
I'm curious what people think about that, what they think the cause (of this degradation) might be, and/or what a solution might be to improve things (if they agree things need to be improved). Incarnate clearly cannot and will not provide the kind of moderation that we would like to see (not a criticism, just reality), so the solution, if any, has to come from elsewhere.
And, failure, trolling can be a form of bullying, and this comment was your attempt at trolling what was an otherwise level-headed attempt at a discussion:
You're a kid? that explains a lot.
Also it's rich coming from you.
It may have not been the most offensive example of your normal practice, but it's certainly not the first time you've done it on these forums, and I'm sure it won't be the last. This is what I meant when I ascribed the term "bully" to you.
Greenwall, I strongly agree with you rar. Bullying is present in the vo community rar, Failure and Vikingranger are like really mean for no reason rar, I never see failure play the game and he repeatedly calls out devs and players and hurt everyones feelings like mine rar.
I dub this the Whiner War of 2015. Can people stop running to Inc like he's daddy about everything? It would be nice if he could focus his time on working on the game rather than stuff like this.
Show me an online game where there aren't hostile people saying offensive things each other. Toon town online or hello kitty online are still around if ya'll can't stand the heat.
Show me an online game where there aren't hostile people saying offensive things each other. Toon town online or hello kitty online are still around if ya'll can't stand the heat.
@Greenie
Yes, discredit and dispel the dissension by calling them trolls/bullies. That's how you roll. Before you accuse people of trolling, think for a bit about how much you love trolling too.
I'm simply exposing your true intention for this thread. Are you sure this is a honest attempt at a level-headed discussion? Because you told phaserlight the following:
I'm sorry Phaserlight, I thought a discussion about bullying was as "on topic" as could be, given recent events. Or maybe you are unaware of the proliferation of bullying that has driven the events that lead to Incarnate's news post?
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you're referring to the SKV vs TGFT war. Don't you love how Ecka Etensk is a self-proclaimed corrupt Dr. Evil-like corporate villain, and how it is biting back on him and his precious guild? Nope, you don't get to paint TGFT as the "victims" of the SKV "bullies." They weren't nice to SKV in the first place. As recent events have proved beyond doubt, TGFT is guilty of countless crimes against the VO community, and now they are reaping the consequences. It's a case of karma.
Nice attempt to desperately reframe the situation into a "bullying" situation.
Yes, discredit and dispel the dissension by calling them trolls/bullies. That's how you roll. Before you accuse people of trolling, think for a bit about how much you love trolling too.
I'm simply exposing your true intention for this thread. Are you sure this is a honest attempt at a level-headed discussion? Because you told phaserlight the following:
I'm sorry Phaserlight, I thought a discussion about bullying was as "on topic" as could be, given recent events. Or maybe you are unaware of the proliferation of bullying that has driven the events that lead to Incarnate's news post?
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you're referring to the SKV vs TGFT war. Don't you love how Ecka Etensk is a self-proclaimed corrupt Dr. Evil-like corporate villain, and how it is biting back on him and his precious guild? Nope, you don't get to paint TGFT as the "victims" of the SKV "bullies." They weren't nice to SKV in the first place. As recent events have proved beyond doubt, TGFT is guilty of countless crimes against the VO community, and now they are reaping the consequences. It's a case of karma.
Nice attempt to desperately reframe the situation into a "bullying" situation.
I'm curious what people think about that, what they think the cause (of this degradation) might be, and/or what a solution might be to improve things (if they agree things need to be improved). Incarnate clearly cannot and will not provide the kind of moderation that we would like to see (not a criticism, just reality), so the solution, if any, has to come from elsewhere.
I don't think most of the VO population is dissatisfied with the game, other than updates not coming on a timely manner. I'm not complaining about that though, I know how things can be on the development side. Also, there are already tools to instantly handle the sporadic verbal abuse before it gets to you, like "/ignore." You know that already of course. If you don't use them, well, don't whine and cry about Inc not moderating enough. He gave you the tools to do it yourself.
Perhaps you and the TGFT bunch are more mad about not having access to stations than you're letting on? WAHH WAHHHHH TELL THE WORLD SKVS ARE THE BULLIES CUZ THEY WILL NOT LET US USE THE STATIONS!!!!
Sorry about sieger. Apparently he's too mad about his pk count being reset to 0 to play much anymore. There goes your means to win back stations temporarily. What happened was entirely his fault. It was fully his choice to farm pks illegitimately. He was not under duress or anything. So, for you to blame what happened to him on "bullying" is ridiculous.
I don't think most of the VO population is dissatisfied with the game, other than updates not coming on a timely manner. I'm not complaining about that though, I know how things can be on the development side. Also, there are already tools to instantly handle the sporadic verbal abuse before it gets to you, like "/ignore." You know that already of course. If you don't use them, well, don't whine and cry about Inc not moderating enough. He gave you the tools to do it yourself.
Perhaps you and the TGFT bunch are more mad about not having access to stations than you're letting on? WAHH WAHHHHH TELL THE WORLD SKVS ARE THE BULLIES CUZ THEY WILL NOT LET US USE THE STATIONS!!!!
Sorry about sieger. Apparently he's too mad about his pk count being reset to 0 to play much anymore. There goes your means to win back stations temporarily. What happened was entirely his fault. It was fully his choice to farm pks illegitimately. He was not under duress or anything. So, for you to blame what happened to him on "bullying" is ridiculous.
"It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you're referring to the SKV vs TGFT war."
Apparently it does unless you managed to join SKV sometime recently.
Apparently it does unless you managed to join SKV sometime recently.